The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

[Taskmage]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Place the quote?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Dancers seem to use daggers, that being the case, I wonder if SE is going to toss dagger users a bone before the expansion is out. It may just be the case that Dancer is not meant to be strong in DD, but the only other job that specializes in this weapon is THF, so maybe something else will come of this.

[Malacite]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Defense and VIT should still have a much larger impact on damage mitigation though.

A -%DMG trait for PLD (as opposed to defense bonuses) could also help, but this still seems like something of a placebo in that it only fixes things for the one job.

It would be a lot of work for SE, but they did it for shields and they can sure as hell change damage reduction for armor types.

[Karinya]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

When will people ****ing learn it's not that we don't have enough tank jobs, it's that Defense and Vitality are fundamentally broken and need to be completely overhauled.

VIT/Def works fine - watch a paladin and a monk take hits and you'll see that defense does matter. You can get through chain #5 on all ITs with a defense tank - if you're not a spoiled whiner that thinks that taking a measly 100 damage (on a level 75) is the end of the world. VTs will hit a defense tank for more like 50 - less if they block.

What's broken is blink tanking - it's WAY TOO FREAKING GOOD (especially with the ridiculous amounts of haste floating around now) and it's about time people started admitting it. The game was never intended for people to go through whole fights against T or higher enemies taking practically no damage at all - let alone doing it in full DD gear with offensive food and Berserk up! *That's* broken. Defense is fine.

SE needs to suck it up and fix blink tanking so it isn't so retardedly invincible - either for one blink tank, or for multiple people bouncing hate around. (As I've said before, I favor a Ninjutsu skill check to determine whether the attacker hits a shadow or the player. But other remedies are possible.) The longer they put it off, the worse long term damage will be done to other jobs, monsters and content balanced around the assumption that players don't take damage from normal attacks.

I'm fine with NIN's blink tanking if, and only if, SE steps up to the plate and actually fixes the system. There's no excuse for most jobs to be taking similar damage regardless of how much DEF and VIT you pile on.

True - fortunately, that doesn't happen. Have you ever actually seen Kirin Deadly Hold a MNK or BLM? Over double and pushing triple the damage the same exact attack would do to a PLD. Every time I see a ranger in Dynamis I wonder which DD is going to go overboard on hate and get one-shotted - but I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a PLD die from it without already being in the red. Etc.

A ninja, of course, takes 0. Which one do you think is the real problem?

I have a PLD friend who can easily hit 800 def in EXP. What does it get him? Marginally less damage than say a fully armored WAR. HNM mobs smack PLD for hundreds of damage a swing while NIN shake it off with shadows.
Why doesn't wearing heavy armor actually mean something? Most of the DD jobs shouldn't be taking the massive beating they do from most mobs, it's bull shit. IMO, by 75 Paladin should be laughing off anything coming their way that's not from an HNM or other obscenely high level/powered opponent.

They do. VTs hit for maybe 5% of your HP a swing. If you don't block. I don't know what fights you've been watching.

A well-armored WAR does take hits pretty well - they ought to, they were designed as one of the original tank jobs. The fact that that ability is now largely neglected doesn't mean it's not there. But the soft DDs really are soft.


I don't think it would hurt to lower monsters' PDIF floor, but really, defense tanks are not exactly being murdered left and right (except by HNMs, and that's what Raise III is for - any HNM that can't kill at least two or three tanks is a joke, not a fight.) People just have unreasonable expectations like "what, you can't fight 5 monsters in a row without a single cure? You suck!" - which is 100% a result of blink tanks that CAN do exactly that.

Some amount of healing and some amount of resting are part of the design of the game. It's blink+haste that breaks that, not some supposed ineffectiveness of DEF.

[Aksannyi]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Ooh, you're right ... I like it. ^_^

Talking to me? No, I quoted the right person. XD

[Akashimo]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Karinya well put there.
As for Dancer with Daggers..... If they give Dancer Dancing Edge and Thief still gets abused as 75DD/37thf..... *starts looking for wyverns to bbq*

[Taskmage]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

I meant the quote in the sig

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Why would a DANCER not get Dancing Edge?

As for the whole DEF/VIT stuff, quit crying and take the hit. I've been doing it for almost all my solo career as BST, I just got one-shotted by Dark Spore the other day in Tree. Guess what? That's to be expected since my BST is a Tarutaru. I get to make up all that EXP on my own.

I've played the jobs that can afford to hemmorage the most EXP and then the job that dies the most anywhere.

Get so tired of people crying that they got hit or that they have to cure.

Geez. >.>

If they actually bothered to fix Utsusemi (i.e. make Ni EXCLUSIVE TO NINJA), this game wouldn't be filled with so many pussies. Yes, I know, ironic coming from someone that also levels a mithra.

[Akashimo]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Why would a DANCER not get Dancing Edge?

If they actually bothered to fix Utsusemi (i.e. make Ni EXCLUSIVE TO NINJA), this game wouldn't be filled with so many pussies. Yes, I know, ironic coming from someone that also levels a mithra.

Part 1, cause it'll shaft thf which got nothing else to look great in as a DD ._.


Part 2, to the Mithra and the Fly joke!

[Malacite]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

I'm gonna have to disagree almost completely with Karinya and bbq.

DD gear or no, Plate should freaking mean something. I still say there's no excuse for most DD's in heavy armor not being able to take the hits better, and PLD really shouldn't need a WHM to babysit it.

[Akashimo]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

I'm gonna have to disagree almost completely with Karinya and bbq.
DD gear or no, Plate should freaking mean something. I still say there's no excuse for most DD's in heavy armor not being able to take the hits better, and PLD really shouldn't need a WHM to babysit it.

Have you seen most nin's dd gear? >____>
Majority is evasion down
They got no real defense aside from that gear and /war
Poof dead, plates kill ninjers


Plds with enough mp to sustain themselves(as in, knowning when to cure at what moment outside of starting spiked hate), a good enfeebler and at least one spell/roll source of mp, don't need a whm to babysit, but tier 2 and 3 of regen is very very nice.

[Raydeus]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

While I would love that what both mithras are saying about PLD tanking was true (since I'm a guy who picked PLD to take hits, and not to DD), the sad thing is that for current standards blood tanking as it is now just doesn't cut it.

If I could go back to the times back when we chained ITs, got only 12k xp/hr max and PLDs could afford hemorraging HP and MP due to their broken defense then I would do it since I liked that tanking style.

But the way things work now (and the way SE handled Aht Urgan) it seems PLD is in a position where either they get better at dealing with damage taken or they will be relegated even more into the wannabeDD/wannabeBackup healer role they are now. Which is why I stoppped playing PLD a long time ago.



Also, if a taru BST gets one shotted or not has nothing to do with PLD and their way of tanking. Its like me saying that since my Evisceration as a RDM doesn't do much dmg then THFs should deal with their crappy dagger dmg (specially DoT) as well since we both use daggers.

[Malacite]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

The fact that NIN can even EQUIP a Haubergeon more than proves SE is on crack.

No really, it's bull shit. That slot should have rightly gone to DRG, but SE won't ever do that now because it'd cause a massive uproar.

Since when do Ninja's wear heavy armor? -.-

[Pteryx]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

We have five workable main healers now

White Mage - made for the role
Red Mage - suited for the role, complains about it
Summoner - suited for the role, complains about it even more
Blue Mage - just as suited as SMN, but most absolutely refuse to do it
Puppetmaster - currently I see PUP embracing this new function with their automations with open arms

Personally I disagree with SMN being "suited for the role" of main healer. They're not really suited to main heal so much as their intended primary function is badly implemented and healing is the best thing left for them to do with the rest of their generous MP thanks to subbed heals frankly being broken compared to most other subbed magic.

I'd really rather have a BLU main heal than a SMN, if they'd even consider playing blue mage as a mage.

Totally disagree we have two tanks. What do those two jobs sub and couldn't tank reasonably most of the time without?

Warrior. Spilt hairs and make semantic debates if you want. Its a tank class, denying that it is is denying its clearly intentional design. Its made to take hits and return them, and returning hits as strongly comes very late in the game for NIN and PLD and still not as impressive as WAR.

To be a tank, a job needs to be able to hold hate and survive. WAR is the best at holding hate if it wants to, I'll give you that... it's just not good enough at the surviving part in the long run, even if geared favorably. It would be nice if SE tried to address that so that WARs at least don't cower and whimper at the notion of tanking. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

The problem with your logic of "make VIT/DEF mean something" is that it already does mean something and you really mean "scale it to match the mitigation NIN has, because I don't want to lose Ni, either."