The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

[Mhurron]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_JP.aspx

[Raydeus]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

He's been grumpy and condescending all over the forums today. Maybe he's just having a bad day.

Lack of sleep can make someone go postal.

In my case if I don't sleep for at least 5 hours I tend to get grumpy and stuff. I like to call it "Bad awakening" but that's only because I've been watching too much Claymore.

[eticket109]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_JP.aspx

cool. I was thinking 6:45 or so, but forgot about daylight savings.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Add new enfeebles and give them to *DANCER* not the supposed master of enfeebling who never gets to do it after lvl 60? (When does the melee burn take over now?) except in missions and some end game content.

SE said BRD was the "premiere support class of FFXI" when they made the early announcements that there would be job adjustments.

Then, one day, they made all of COR's buffs potentially stronger than what little BRD shared with COR.

BRDs don't seem to be hurting all that much, but then, when the class started being defined as a merit puller and not a job that buffed its allies, I can't say I'm surprised SE decided to let COR be better at what BRDs had been neglecting.

RDMs let themselves be defined as healers by the community, if SE follows community logic, expect WHM to be adjusted for endurance and RDM to remain a very good healer.

[Aksannyi]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Late coming into this thread, I know, but {Tank} {Can I have it?}

I don't really see a need for new jobs, as 18 seems like plenty to me, but definitely for sure NO MORE DDs and please please please give us a tank if you have to give us something new.

[Taskmage]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

I agree on the tank thing. We've got a friggin ton of damage dealing jobs, not a lot of support classes but still more than the playerbase at large cares to play, four jobs that make workable main healers, and a whopping two tank jobs. It'd be really nice to get another job that had comparable enmity generating and damage mitigating abilities to those two jobs. Nicer might be some kind of enfeebling job that would soften a mob's offensive abilities in ways that might facilitate other jobs like war and sam taking a tanking role. That job really should be rdm, but I'm pretty content with our lot in the world as things are, so if someone steps up and takes our enfeebling crown I wouldn't really complain.

I think all of this has already been said by other people in other threads ...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

I agree on the tank thing. We've got a friggin ton of damage dealing jobs, not a lot of support classes but still more than the playerbase at large cares to play, four jobs that make workable main healers, and a whopping two tank jobs. It'd be really nice to get another job that had comparable enmity generating and damage mitigating abilities to those two jobs. Nicer might be some kind of enfeebling job that would soften a mob's offensive abilities in ways that might facilitate other jobs like war and sam taking a tanking role. That job really should be rdm, but I'm pretty content with our lot in the world as things are, so if someone steps up and takes our enfeebling crown I wouldn't really complain.

I think all of this has already been said by other people in other threads ...

While I have no argument for the support job statement, the same logic applies to adding a tank as adding a support class. Just adding a new tank doesn't mean people will line up to play it. Tanking, healing and support roles are the jobs that place responsibility on the player and most players want to be a damage dealer since there is no responsibility to those jobs.

We have five workable main healers now

White Mage - made for the role
Red Mage - suited for the role, complains about it
Summoner - suited for the role, complains about it even more
Blue Mage - just as suited as SMN, but most absolutely refuse to do it
Puppetmaster - currently I see PUP embracing this new function with their automations with open arms

I think given how stubborn our community is about deviating from trends, that another class specilized with healing could be worthwhile and I think Chemist is perfect for that position. Plus, being Item or Tool-based could allievate MP issues, especially if scaled to balance /WHM as a subjob.

Totally disagree we have two tanks. What do those two jobs sub and couldn't tank reasonably most of the time without?

Warrior. Spilt hairs and make semantic debates if you want. Its a tank class, denying that it is is denying its clearly intentional design. Its made to take hits and return them, and returning hits as strongly comes very late in the game for NIN and PLD and still not as impressive as WAR.

Blue Mage also has tank potential, but again, BLUs don't like to stray from the DD role they want to define themselves as.

SAM would be an ideal job to mold into the parry tank and another DD Tank and I wish SE would move forward and make that happen.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

The thing about Tank Jobs, though, is there are two types of Tanking: Blood Tanking and Blink Tanking. Blood Tanking focuses on absorbing every hit you take, whereas Blink Tanking focuses on not getting hit at all: both types are common in their need for their enemy's attention.

Now, I'm pretty sure you all knew that already, but when you have only two methods of operation, people are obviously going to look for the best of the best in each, narrowing it down to one for each category, and then choosing between the two categories based on preference. The best for the best in Blood Tanking is, by popular choice, Paladin, and the best of the best for Blink Tanking is, again by popular choice, Ninja.

Though many jobs can actually Tank, people settle for nothing more than the best, limiting themselve to only two, and only because there are two styles of Tanking: if Paladins had it their way, Blink Tanking would be the clear, all-time inferior, so their dominance in Blood Tanking would make them a practical monoply as far as Tank availability goes; rinse, repeat, and invert for Ninja.

This makes things awfully apparent: no matter how many Tanking jobs you add, there are always only going to be two. For example, if this Dancer turns out to be a better Blink Tank than Ninja, then people will forget Ninja Tanks ever existed, and they can go back to being just another Damage-Dealer. If Square-Enix, however, paid as much attention to the balance of their Tanking Jobs as thier Damage-Dealing Jobs, then far more choices would appear.

The point I'm making? Tanking is just as bland as Damage-Dealing, and the players just as biased: if one melee Damage Dealer was the clear superior to all the seemingly numerous others . . . you know what, I take that back: the others would still be Damage-Dealers, but that's only because they can't do anything else. They're pretty much out of a job, though, because if you can't do anything else, you can only Deal-Damage. I guess that's why balancing Damage-Dealer jobs is so important.

But, ignore that one tangent, and know that there are only two Tanking jobs because the playerbase made it so: that is my point above all else.

EDITED for BBQCat:

While I have no argument for the support job statement, the same logic applies to adding a tank as adding a support class. Just adding a new tank doesn't mean people will line up to play it. Tanking, healing and support roles are the jobs that place responsibility on the player and most players want to be a damage dealer since there is no responsibility to those jobs.

Pretty much what I've been saying, about the Damage-Dealing, I mean. "If you can't do anything else, you Deal Damage": this can go beyond just your job.

We have five workable main healers now

White Mage - made for the role
Red Mage - suited for the role, complains about it
Summoner - suited for the role, complains about it even more
Blue Mage - just as suited as SMN, but most absolutely refuse to do it
Puppetmaster - currently I see PUP embracing this new function with their automations with open arms

I think given how stubborn our community is about deviating from trends, that another class specilized with healing could be worthwhile and I think Chemist is perfect for that position. Plus, being Item or Tool-based could allievate MP issues, especially if scaled to balance /WHM as a subjob.

HOLD IT!

Yes, I can see your reasoning of Red Mages being able to heal, and we complain about it, and your position on Red Mages is completely justified. Summoners, on the other hand, are a whole other can of worms. I'll get to it later when I get to the contradiction in your testimony (I've been going Phoenix Wright crazy lately . . .).

About Blue Mage and Puppetmaster, though: Blue Mage does have far more resources than Summoner does on its own when it comes to healing, but they can really do a lot more, and would rather do more rather than see themselve pidgeon-holed as another healer. This kind of goes beyond my "If you can do nothing else" thesis (I'm making it my thesis now, shut up), because, technically, Blue Mage can do EVERYTHING else; they just see the example Red Mages have set and don't want to lose that versatility via community pidgeon-holing.

Puppetmaster, though, is on the opposite end of the stick. For a long time, they've proven my "If you can do nothing else" thesis by being branded as sub-par damage dealers who can't do anything without thier puppets, and have really been begging SE for a while now to be releasing something like the White-Mage head. Because of the community's brand as "sub-par" in the DD department, they embrace the ability to "do something else," in this case, heal, with open arms, as you said.

Totally disagree we have two tanks. What do those two jobs sub and couldn't tank reasonably most of the time without?

Warrior. Spilt hairs and make semantic debates if you want. Its a tank class, denying that it is is denying its clearly intentional design. Its made to take hits and return them, and returning hits as strongly comes very late in the game for NIN and PLD and still not as impressive as WAR.

OBJECTION!

You've clearly stated earlier that Summoners are "suited for the role" of Healer, but, really, nothing really backs this up from the Summoner standpoint with the exception of Garuda's Healing Wind thing and Leviathan's Spring Water. Why do Summoners seem suited to heal? Because they have MP, and can sub White Mage! By that broken logic, you can pose a Black Mage as a healer!

This clearly contradicts your position on tanking jobs. You claim neither Paladin nor Ninja would be very good Tanks without /WAR, ergo, Warrior deserves the Tanking credit.

Let's go further and see your statement about Warrior's clearly intentional design: if intentional designs truly prevailed, Ninjas would be another Damage Dealer (as per my "thesis" ), and they'd switch places with Warriors. But, as I stated earlier on in this post, there are only two types of Tanking, and players only accept the best of the best of each.

Also by your logic, every job you've listed should be able to heal well, even without /WHM. In reality, /WHM is all Summoners have! How does that make Summoner itself a healer? It doesn't. In it's current state, it's a broken job, which can only get by with /WHM.

Blue Mage also has tank potential, but again, BLUs don't like to stray from the DD role they want to define themselves as.

SAM would be an ideal job to mold into the parry tank and another DD Tank and I wish SE would move forward and make that happen.

As I have said earlier, there are only two types of Tanks, and players only want the best of the best of each.

[Malacite]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

When will people ****ing learn it's not that we don't have enough tank jobs, it's that Defense and Vitality are fundamentally broken and need to be completely overhauled.


I'm fine with NIN's blink tanking if, and only if, SE steps up to the plate and actually fixes the system. There's no excuse for most jobs to be taking similar damage regardless of how much DEF and VIT you pile on.

I have a PLD friend who can easily hit 800 def in EXP. What does it get him? Marginally less damage than say a fully armored WAR. HNM mobs smack PLD for hundreds of damage a swing while NIN shake it off with shadows.

Why doesn't wearing heavy armor actually mean something? Most of the DD jobs shouldn't be taking the massive beating they do from most mobs, it's bull shit. IMO, by 75 Paladin should be laughing off anything coming their way that's not from an HNM or other obscenely high level/powered opponent.


Oh yeah, and fix our broken magic system too, but that's another topic. The only thing I'll say about it for is that a PLD's healing magic should at least be self-sufficient, thus reducing the workload for a mage as opposed to say having a DRK or a MNK tank.

[Raydeus]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

...it's that Defense and Vitality are fundamentally broken and need to be completely overhauled.

Sad but true, the main reason why we have to rely on Ninjutsu to tank effectively (by today's standards) is because blood tanking simply doesn't work.

PLD should be a job with "natural resistence to physical dmg, enhanced by gear", instead of a job with "the same resistence to dmg as everyone else, ever so slightly enhanced by gear" as it is now.

Also, PLD's spells/abilities are pretty lacking for such a defensive focused class. Healing yourself is nice and all, but only having Flash and Sentinel as the only natural ways to temporarily reduce dmg (does anyone even count Rampart as anything more than a hate generating ability?) with such a broken defense is difficult to accept.

[Armando]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Since S-E seems so stubborn about not fixing VIT/Def, they could just open up more shielding options for other jobs.

[Taskmage]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

I totally forgot about pup when considering main healers and blu when considering tank candidates.

I will agree that we basically have two kinds of tanking right now, blood tanking and blink tanking, which is exactly why I think we could use another tank job. The game could use another perspective on damage mitigation. I don't really have a pet idea on how to do it, but I feel there are definately other ways to do it that haven't been explored. What if, for example, there was a job that mitigated damage magically like a rdm does with stoneskin and phalanx, with cost-effective self-defensive spells staggered throughout their levels and the hate tools to make use of them? I think some people have suggested that geomancer would be a flavorful fit for the position.

I'm not expecting to fix some percieved tank shortage or anything like that, I just think that tanking is an area of the game that could use some more variety.

[Murphie]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

I totally forgot about pup when considering main healers and blu when considering tank candidates.

I will agree that we basically have two kinds of tanking right now, blood tanking and blink tanking, which is exactly why I think we could use another tank job. The game could use another perspective on damage mitigation. I don't really have a pet idea on how to do it, but I feel there are definately other ways to do it that haven't been explored. What if, for example, there was a job that mitigated damage magically like a rdm does with stoneskin and phalanx, with cost-effective self-defensive spells staggered throughout their levels and the hate tools to make use of them? I think some people have suggested that geomancer would be a flavorful fit for the position.

I'm not expecting to fix some percieved tank shortage or anything like that, I just think that tanking is an area of the game that could use some more variety.

I've always kind of liked this idea. Unfortunately, like you, I don't really have anything to add to it.

[Feba]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

Also by your logic, every job you've listed should be able to heal well, even without /WHM. In reality, /WHM is all Summoners have! How does that make Summoner itself a healer? It doesn't.

So it's a contradiction?

[Malacite]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" at TGS 2007 Thread! DANCER AND RELEASE DATE!

I still think DEF and VIT should be changed so that any melee can effectively tank, while PLD will simply outshine all others with it's superior abilities.

It'd also be nice if healing magic did more. That is, Raise PLD's Healing Magic to B+ (to match DRk's elemental rating), uncap cures, and have healing skill matter a lot more when determining the potency of a cure.

Done right, this would give WHM an even greater edge over RDM due to the skill gap, and possibly even make PLD a viable main healer. I always wondered why the "Protector" has never been able to properly shield others. PLD should be able to take the bulk of the damage while tossing out the occasional cure to keep himself or others alive, leaving the WHM free to buff others and act as the emergency healer. Not so much to the point where they'd be obsolete, but I find that in general, we rely on WHM/SMN/RDM to heal us in battle too much.

I mean since when did Full Plate = Cloth ?