Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

[Sevv]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Meh, you know what Aeni meant. I'd consider having those items playing at more than 100% potential. Most of them aren't necessary or expected of the average player. Aeni meant 40% of what the average player should be capable of.

Aye I did know what was meant armando and you know I'm sarcastic and play devils advocate half the time lol.

Bit Aeni puts the blame from that post on ls only parties which couldn't be more wrong, lazy players will be lazy no matter who they party with, it is a common fact. Also these shitty players usually are removed from ls, unless it is a heavy botting ls which needs bodies.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

BBQ, as always, makes a good point. But he took it to left field again and the meaning was lost and you called him an anti-elitist-elitist.

So he's a Delitist? Anyway, what he was saying (but got lost) is that gamers take the path of least resistance. And I agree, but for different reasons.

[Amele]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Throw a Ridill on a naked Warrior and he's basically guaranteed at least 2nd best DD as foretold by the parser.
In other news, my BLU friend just sent me a parse of him keeping up with (actually outdoing by like 1.8% - nothing to write home about) a very decently geared Ridill WAR. Not completely pimped, but ridill/joy (colibri, btw)/sword merits and, from my understanding, a good none-to-minimal haste build.

for the record, there's no such thing as a good rid/joy build for warrior, haste or not. (seriously. dual swords? go play pld/nin if you want to dual swords in exp. )

and any 75 warrior should at least have 12% (w.turbah, swift belt, unicorn legs.) and there's really no reason that if you *also* have a ridill you can't have dusk hands. so that's 15%.. and none of that takes any more than 4 friends and some gil.)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

BBQ, as always, makes a good point. But he took it to left field again and the meaning was lost and you called him an anti-elitist-elitist.

There's nothing wrong with the left field. >_>

Besides, it's more like BBQ noticed that the field sizes are different, so home run distances are different, and proclaimed angrily that home run is an idiotic, deceitful concept, and everyone who cheers for home runs are stupid sheeps drunk on overpriced beer.

Which has a point, but is a tad... overblown... ._.

But, hey, when someone get through that thick skull of his and make him realized he, er, "took it to the left field, again," he usually backs down immediately--until the next person makes a personal insult. Such is life on FFXIonline.

/end derail

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Guess I'm spoiled for doing CoP with my LS buddies.

CoP missions statics are an entirely different matter from EXP/Merit statics. There you must have some degree of flexibility in jobs between members or a CoP group will struggle to succeed. Random pick-ups lead to endless frustration because people do not prepare for them in the same way they do EXP/Merit.

If you play a support class job, moreso than any other job, and you get spoiled on static PT setups and you will not grow to full potential, you will do nothing but frustrate the jobs of players you don't normally work with. And its really annoying because high level events and PTs are a totally different dynamic from the EXP ones.

I have always clashed with PLD, DRK and BLU as COR and BRD. These jobs are difficult to mesh together and its hard to make a PT with them work, but with some communication, effort and the right mobs, they can work together beautifully. I've worked with PLDs that knew to line up for Refresh and he did that because he realized the situation was different and that the mob type wouldn't be harmful. Some PLDs just never break that mentality and those PLDs invite or static with RDM exclusively.

But if you just stick to the groups you know, how will you ever find these other players. Sometimes even the worst PTs I've made new friends in.

I remember way back when I leveled my first WAR sub, I was really down that day and discourage because Taru WAR is not easy. I just wanted my sub for DRG done. So I got this invite to tank, yet again.

I turned it down. The guy didn't relent though and kept bugging me to come. And really wanting 37 over and done with, I gave in.

This guy has been one of my best friends for the last three years and we found out a while back we didn't even live that far from each other. We talk about all kinds of stuff, I've even gotten to know his family a bit.

I could have not taken the invite and shut him down. I could have waited a day and gotten a PT where I didn't have to tank. But I wouldn't have him as a friend and made other friends through him if I had taken the easy way out.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

For once I don't have any blind cynicism for that post. One of the main things that keeps me on Gilgamesh is that both of my RL friends I went to HS with and live in my neighborhood are on, and it's no big deal to sign on and talk about who sucks in the pt, or who's a cry baby on the LS.

And they're both NINs, so they're making fun of my PLD (How's the exp? Oh? Well it'd be 8k/hr if it was a nin tank....)



(A**Holes..) But it's all in good fun, and they know that PLD and NIN both have their place, and there is no "competition," because a good tank is a good tank, period.

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Are people still allowed to post on this thread since "job adjustments" have been released?

for the record, there's no such thing as a good rid/joy build for warrior, haste or not.

Yes there is. Joyeuse gets piercing bonus on Colibri. And assuming you have the rest of the gear to carry it, swinging multiple times even faster is better than slower.

and any 75 warrior should at least have 12% (w.turbah, swift belt, unicorn legs.) and there's really no reason that if you *also* have a ridill you can't have dusk hands. so that's 15%.. and none of that takes any more than 4 friends and some gil.)

those boots you mentioned cost more than 4 haubergeons. Hardly something that would qualify "decent." In fact, U leggings are the last piece of Haste gear a WAR should worry about.

a moderate haste build is the 5+4 easy r/e pieces. And that's what I mentioned before. Anything past that, you may as well be working to a full fledged 20-22% haste.

I may not be end game with my Warrior, but I'd like to think I understand how gear works, thank you very much.

[Amele]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Are people still allowed to post on this thread since "job adjustments" have been released?
Yes there is. Joyeuse gets piercing bonus on Colibri. And assuming you have the rest of the gear to carry it, swinging multiple times even faster is better than slower.
those boots you mentioned cost more than 4 haubergeons. Hardly something that would qualify "decent." In fact, U leggings are the last piece of Haste gear a WAR should worry about.
a moderate haste build is the 5+4 easy r/e pieces. And that's what I mentioned before. Anything past that, you may as well be working to a full fledged 20-22% haste.
I may not be end game with my Warrior, but I'd like to think I understand how gear works, thank you very much.

25% damage bonus on a 35 damage weapon with a 4-hit on a 40 damage weapon is not going to outperform Juggernaut/Ridill (5 hit on a 46 damage weapon, +30 attack +3 str), 50% double attack or not. (I may retract this statement if you can provide a parse with more than a 1-2% 'smart play' margin.)

and that's not even taking into account the difference between A- and B skill which is enough for 13 more accuracy and 14 more attack (assuming suppanomimi) on mainhand swings.

ridill is worth it over a second axe because of the increased TP gain. you'd be better off singlehanding ridill over rid/joy. (because joy is stictly worse than ridill and is only going to slow you down.)

and I'll give you that u.legs cost a fortune, 5+4 easy r/ex is not moderate haste, it's minimal haste.

there's no reason that you can't either a) get haidate, b) get dusk hands/feet or c) get unicorn. any of which will get you up to 11-14%.

I stand by my statement that the warrior you parsed against was not wearing a 'very decently geared' setup, considering how -far- from optimal low-haste double sword ridill is, even from what a decent AH set should be.

[Armando]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

ridill is worth it over a second axe because of the increased TP gain. you'd be better off singlehanding ridill over rid/joy. (because joy is stictly worse than ridill and is only going to slow you down.)

You forget Dual Wield is so powerful it can offset even that. 20% Delay reduction to both hands and a whole fricking free hit on every WS goes a long way.

Ridill alone:
10.17 DMG/sec * 2 (ave # of hits) = 20.34 DMG/sec

Ridill + Joyeuse
(40 * 2 + 35 * 1.5)/368 = 21.60 DMG/sec PRE PIERCING BONUS.

Ridill alone is 200% TP gain, Ridill + Joyeuse is 175% TP gain but stronger WS.

Too lazy to do any further math right now (e.g. Jug/Rid vs Rid/Joy) but don't be so quick to dismiss Ridill + Joyeuse. Factoring in a piercing bonus I'm 98% certain it'll outperform Ridill solo (with piercing bonus the combo as a whole is 23.74 DMG/sec.)

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

the warrior you parsed against

"You?" "You?"

I'm a gimpy WAR, yo. I play 7 hours/week TOPS. You think I outparse Ridill WARs?

My BLU friend outdid one, not me. And I still hold to the fact that just having a Ridill gives you way above normal damage numbers. Ridill/Joy is pretty much always going to be better than woodville/maneater. No contest. Gear doesn't even matter. Sword merits is +14ish acc. That's huge. Suppa getting double benefits. That helps too.

What you said about single wielding Ridill -- it's true that you actually get tp faster and I know it. But that further proves what I said about having just a Ridill.

I stand by my statement that the warrior you parsed against was not wearing a 'very decently geared' setup, considering how -far- from optimal low-haste double sword ridill is, even from what a decent AH set should be.

Far from optimal is good enough.

My haubergeon is probably the most expensive piece of equipment I own. I'm not incredible, but I do happen to keep up in damage with every axe/axe Warrior I've ever partied with. Lemme define "keep up": Dealing enough damage that when the Heca-swapping, Haste-Tping Warrior tops the parser, I'm not far behind. That same War with a Ridill would be probably embarrass me. Can you argue that?

In fact, he could use that Ridill alone and embarrass me.

The fact that my friend's BLU could keep up with a Ridill WAR is wonderful. But we're looking at top-of-the-line BLU (5/5 Homam and he's the only BLU and the first person on server to attain any Morrigan's) vs a Ridill WAR period.

All this brings me full circle to my original point: Ridill is broken, 2 handed adjustments will be nice (though I still wish Ridill would get deleted).

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

and any 75 warrior should at least have 12% (w.turbah, swift belt, unicorn legs.) and there's really no reason that if you *also* have a ridill you can't have dusk hands. so that's 15%.. and none of that takes any more than 4 friends and some gil.)

I guess I should quit playing WAR then, since I only have 10% haste (w. turban, durk hands, dusk feet).

I'm just glad to know I don't have to go to Alla when I want people to try and make me feel inadequate when it comes to my gear. It's nice to have options.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

The funniest thing about Amele's post is that they mentioned 3 pieces of gear, and 2/3 of those aren't available for the average WAR.

I think this stems from something BBQ said (amidst his usual preaching) where people will judge a job based on "potential" that it can do, not the average acceptable range or the practical implementation of it.

10% Haste is normal, because there JUST MIGHT be WARs that don't have end game.

Or can't wake up at 3am every morning before work to camp Fafnir. Or organize events to get Sea access.

[Amele]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

what's funny about responses to my last post is that the lists were specifically about a ridill war, that is: presupposing the means to get a ridill; there's really no reason not to have x, y, and z too. of course not every warrior is going to have the things I listed within their means (just like not every redmage is going to have nashira gear) but if a rdm gets a novia/o, then there's little reason that they *couldn't* have some nashira.

I did overstep a little in an earlier post by stating that any career 75 warrior should have unicorn leggings, just because I was misjudging the relative price of them (my head is still mostly in 2006 if I'm not making detailed gil comparisons) but seriously, there's little reason not to have at least a w.turban and swift belt, and one or two pieces of dusk are well within the means of anyone who isn't fresh off the boat at 75. (avatars seem to be a popular benchmark around here, it takes only 90 avatar runs to get dusk hands on my server, that's 15 days).

You forget Dual Wield is so powerful it can offset even that. 20% Delay reduction to both hands and a whole fricking free hit on every WS goes a long way.

I didn't forget the 20% delay reduction, I didn't bother to consider the extra ws hit might make up the tp-rate loss (16% less tp vs ~25% more weaponskill swings).


I'll concede rid vs rid/joy on piercing weak mobs. jug/rid is still the better combo: better ws (more hits and higher damage) and better dot (more attack more accuracy higher damage) the only place rid/joy pulls ahead at that point is in tp gain and vorpal is not going to compare to rampage.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I did overstep a little in an earlier post by stating that any career 75 warrior should have unicorn leggings, just because I was misjudging the relative price of them (my head is still mostly in 2006 if I'm not making detailed gil comparisons) but seriously, there's little reason not to have at least a w.turban and swift belt, and one or two pieces of dusk are well within the means of anyone who isn't fresh off the boat at 75. (avatars seem to be a popular benchmark around here, it takes only 90 avatar runs to get dusk hands on my server, that's 15 days).

I actually consider dusk hands, dusk feet and unicorn boots to all be more accessible than swift belt. Getting Sacrarium access and then getting enough help to take down the fomor NM enough times to get the drop requires more than just have some friends. It requires having some friends who are willing to take their spare time to help you, potentially repeating CoP missions they've already finished.

Players who have deep connections within the game to get that kind of support from others tend to take it for granted. Similarly, players who have a lot of gil tend to forget how hard it was back when they didn't have gil, and how much work and effort it took to get what they now have.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I don't forget doing teleport quests to get money to pay for Dispel and kicking myself for it when I had to level WHM and I had to BUY the spells, but they were more expensive. -_-

But yeah, You give a newb like 10k and they think you're a god. Holy shyt, if someone had given me 10k when I was in the dunes..