Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

[Malacite]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I'd like one that would keep my hat on my head, because my soul is so blindingly hardcore that if I didn't stop to take a breather every now and then, it would unleash it's potential and start impregnating women. Possibly even men. I don't want to find out about the latter though.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I lolmnoped

Ah.. Well played. Well played.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

So wait...

It's a debate between:

People who are well informed vs people who prefer to be ignorant on purpose?

I wonder which side is right... oh wait, it's the side OMGWTF isn't on.

[Hyrist]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I'm not bothering to read 15 pages of dumb arguments I've already regarded on other forums.

This is a good update in general: hope to see more till we get that difficult-to-get balance between jobs.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Heh. Hryist is right; this does have the potential to be a great update.

BTW, all the personal bashings aside, BBQ is hardly "ignorant". He just tend to carry good points too far.

I think most of us here would take a SAM we know to be a good player with good gears over random WAR or MNK, no matter how we rank SAM (or if we rank DD's at all), for exp, merit, or most other things.

Having a DD rank system stuck in one's head can sometimes get in the way of thinking clearly, IMO. It's not as a major deal as BBQ made it out to be, though--DD ranking is just a mental shortcut which isn't always appropriate to use.

* * *

Really looking forward to it, though I know better than to expect too much. (Cheap Accuracy Grip! C'on, S-E!)

[Amele]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

And?
You don't have to be in the golden child jobs to be part of the problem. All you have to be is vocal and rate where people can see it. You're vocal.
And really, the act doesn't work. I've seen what you've said about others on this forum elsewhere. Grow a spine and learn to agree to disagree with others opinions or just ignore them if you can't. Don't scurry to BG and huddle up with Tokitoki, BPR and Asdrafail to talk shit about people here just because you can't agree with them.
I have the links, I could name names. But that's just more drama.

"When the debate is over, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates.

and of course I'm vocal on a public forum, that's the *point* of a public forum. and I have no shame about posts made on another public forum, anyone here is free to search what I said. who's asdrafail btw?

(I regret it somewhat of course, I was also letting off steam.)

@itazura, yeah. they can be a bad crutch sometimes, but they're a useful tool other times, especially when discussing what sort and magnitude of improvements/adjustments/new toys to make/change/add. ^^

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

"When the debate is over, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates.

"Slander is spoken. In print, its libel." ~ J. Jameson, Spiderman (along with non-fictional journalists).

and of course I'm vocal on a public forum, that's the *point* of a public forum. and I have no shame about posts made on another public forum, anyone here is free to search what I said.

You made it a point - blowing off steam or not - to jump in and slander people along with BRP behind their backs. I do have respect for Vyuru, Malacite and BurningPanther even if I do not agree with them all the time.

who's asdrafail?

Asdrabael, it was a not-so-Freudian slip. Don't worry, I've called him that to his face in-game. He's the type who, when a returning DRK and THF was inquiring about HNM linkshells on Alla, told this DRK no "good" HNMLS would take him or his THF if he didn't have a K. Club and Assassin's Armlets.

Yeah, totally standard, easy things to get for a guy returning from two years ago.

Basically, Bael-Fail the worst example of the "tier" mentality.

@itazura, yeah. they can be a bad crutch sometimes, but they're a useful tool other times, especially when discussing what sort and magnitude of improvements/adjustments/new toys to make/change/add. ^^

Maybe I did go overboard a little and misunderstand you here and for that I'm sorry.

That whole thing on BG irked me, I had plugged my name into search to find some old thread I posted in and found that instead. It wasn't really even that my name was brought up, I expect a degree of notoriety given the absurdity of my name, but the others mentioned - people who are great parts of this community, very positive people - that was just unacceptable to me.

It is fun to talk about the gear you can have and what you'll parse when you get it, but some just take it all too far. I hate princess BRDs just as much now as I did when I levelled the job. I hated the "RNGx4 Onry" BRDs. I'd take PTs with MNKs, DRGs and WARs and have fun. If I was going to have a great invite rate, I wanted it to do some good for others and not the ego-tripping, scorpion arrow RNG.

I was a DRG once, after all. I found out, just like BRD and RDM later, it wasn't my 100% passion and I've since found my niche in COR and RNG, but I still respect people who are finding thier spot in this game. That's why I don't like the ratings.

/derail over

Grips are win.

[Karinya]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

but it's still a crap sub for parsing purposes, since you lose either: 10% haste, 10accuracy 5 strength, (hasso); or 10% double attack, warcry, and berserk.

That's the real problem: nin is both a top tier offensive *and* a top tier defensive job (both as sub and main). There's no damage sacrifice to get the best damage mitigation in the game. There's no tradeoff. That's practically the definition of unbalanced.

Screwing the mitigation would upset basically every high level exp and HNM strategy (that doesn't necessarily make it bad, I think the game could use some shaking up, but SE doesn't generally swing that way.) If they're not going to put a dent in utsusemi's survivability, though, a damage nerf for NIN and /NIN is long, long overdue. Buffing 2hs instead is superficially attractive (nobody will whine about being nerfed because they weren't), but it's going to worsen the player-overbuffing and resultant boringly weak fights we already have.

At that point I'm reduced to hoping WotG will bring us stronger monsters that are challenging, and at the same time, worthwhile to fight, and end the era of the merit massacre.

[Amele]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

That's the real problem: nin is both a top tier offensive *and* a top tier defensive job (both as sub and main). There's no damage sacrifice to get the best damage mitigation in the game. There's no tradeoff. That's practically the definition of unbalanced.

that's the thing though, ninja isn't the best offensive sub, /war is still better. (yeah, berserk and war's misc traits are that good lol)

which is why the top three DD jobs are mnk/nin (where the weapon type and mainjob are just *that* strong, monk is still that high even without /war. although they also gain the least from /nin.) and then two jobs that can have *both* (war and nin respectively) which is where there's no real trade off.

Buffing 2hs instead is superficially attractive (nobody will whine about being nerfed because they weren't), but it's going to worsen the player-overbuffing and resultant boringly weak fights we already have.

the nerf at 2H jobs is about 3 years old now, in many ways, this is an *unnerf* of dragoon, dark knight, and samurai, (and gaxe warrior too, lol) with a couple bennies for stave using mages, which is fair since SE wants to provide new toys without obsoleting the staves (which are probably 'too good' because of the kitchen-sink effect they have) of course, 3 years ago, we didn't have merits or all this incremental new gear either.

At that point I'm reduced to hoping WotG will bring us stronger monsters that are challenging, and at the same time, worthwhile to fight, and end the era of the merit massacre.

SE stated they would be (bringing us stronger mobs) as part of the adjustments and new job introductions coming in the next expansion. it's unlikely that they'll ever significantly nerf AU exp, and honestly; it's the xp/hr that matters to most players, not the camp location or method of obtaining it, so as long as the newest camps are comparable to the AU camps, I'd expect to see them both utilized to an extent (similar to RoZ / CoP camps)

[Hyrist]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I was a DRG once, after all. I found out, just like BRD and RDM later, it wasn't my 100% passion and I've since found my niche in COR and RNG, but I still respect people who are finding thier spot in this game. That's why I don't like the ratings.

I'll have to side against the ratings on principle, but there was performance gabs that produced this update.

I'm not going to elaborate, but you can be rest assured that even if this fixes current combat levels, people are still going to find exploits. Players who play for ease and bragging rights will alway follow the crowd to what's the most broken, and therefore what makes the game easiest for them.

SE has one of the hardest tasks of making damage dealing and other primary roles on par with each other, while still maintaining their unique traits. Of course there still going to be situations when one beats out the others, but that's expected.

Anyways, with the month's waning down to WoG, this update came sooner than I expected it to, it leaves me wondering what's to come, and if these adjustments are foreshadowing what we're going to see in the future.

the nerf at 2H jobs is about 3 years old now, in many ways, this is an *unnerf* of dragoon, dark knight, and samurai, (and gaxe warrior too, lol) with a couple bennies for stave using mages, which is fair since SE wants to provide new toys without obsoleting the staves (which are probably 'too good' because of the kitchen-sink effect they have) of course, 3 years ago, we didn't have merits or all this incremental new gear either.

I wanted to comment on this:

The TP return aspect was fundamentally broken, just like the 2h damage calculations. There is no argument saying that the abuse of the TP return was just about as harmful as any other neft that fixed job imbalances. We're seeing just as much with /nin nowadays as there was with 2hander jobs back then. The difference is that the TP/weapon skill had a glaringly huge example of the extreme; Relic Knuckles.

It is my opinion, and you're welcome to disagree, is that SE made only a half-fix two years ago, not a nerf. They saw the aspect of it that was being exploited and, due to inexperience and lack of foresight, neglected to anticipate the second aspect of what made the Weaponskill TP return seem needed: the unbalanced damage on 2h weapons to 1h.

Of course this wasn't a major issue in the past anyways. Dual wielding was just starting to come out as a fad, and didn't have much gear to support the trend. After CoP was completed and the release of loads of Haste and Double/Multi attack weapons and gear, this innate flaw started to become more apparent. Unfortunately, it would be a difficult pickle to fix while maintaining balance.

While this was a long time in coming, I'm glad that there was such a long time between SE recognizing the problem, and SE actually fixing it. This at least gives me the hope that SE took their time to think it all out, so that we'll get a fix that won't have to immediately be ajusted because of how it breaks the game mechanics in another way.

If this works out nicely, it'll be that much more faith SE earns back from the people. I personally enjoy how much better this game has gotten over the last few years, even if some complain that the difficulty is getting to 'easy'.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

PLD/NIN is much better than NIN, though NIN/DRK is really nice.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

If this works out nicely, it'll be that much more faith SE earns back from the people. I personally enjoy how much better this game has gotten over the last few years, even if some complain that the difficulty is getting to 'easy'.

Agreed. I don't think SE could have forseen the shitstorm that the TP nerf would bring (The Age of Arrowburns, Then BLMs, and now TP Burn). While I still hold they could have simply made a quick fix to the Relic Knuckles (since MNK was abusing this more than any other job) it could have been avoided. The high TP return on WS seemed like a pretty good offset to dual-wielding and haste to me, but oh well.


There is one thing I'd like to point out though; Had SE not done that nerf, SAM and DRG would completely dominate colibri and imp camps now. On SAM it's very easy to get enough store tp to ensure over 100 TP returned on penta thrust under the old system.

Nerfing outright the way they did was still wrong though I find. I'm sure there was a better solution (perhaps only partial TP nerfing, such as diminishing returns per hit) and hopefully we're going to see it this month.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

TP Burns are much better than jobs like RNG and BLM excluding everyone else. Every job but SMN and BLM can hold their own in a TP Burn.

[Vyuru]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I'm not going to elaborate, but you can be rest assured that even if this fixes current combat levels, people are still going to find exploits. Players who play for ease and bragging rights will alway follow the crowd to what's the most broken, and therefore what makes the game easiest for them.

No doubt, I don't disagree with you there, but I mentioned earlier in the thread on page 3 somewhere that:

May have been said already, but I'd point out that with the grips, and two handed weapons being adjusted to deal more damage to higher level mobs, we now have an interesting situation.

I see alot of people saying that plds and whms are better for IT mobs, hence why they don't the invite for the TP burns on the T-VT mobs.

With this update, we now have the jobs who specialize on T-VT mobs (pretty much ninja-anything that goes /nin) and the jobs who specialize on the VT-IT+ mobs, pretty much all two handed users and paladins/white mages.

It all depends on how two handed weapon damage scales to monsters of a higher difficulty level however.

Now it really depends on what this update does for two handed weapon users, but I'd like to point out that two handed weapon skills will be getting 2x boosts, one is a direct boost from SE, the second boost comes from two handed weapon damage gaining a boost vs higher level mobs. So my guess is we are going to see a substantial increase in *some* two handed WS damage vs IT mobs.

There are alot of IT+ camps that you can go to on the way to lvl 75, I honestly don't know how many are there at lvl 75, I know of a few, and I suspect there are more, I just haven't looked yet. But with any luck, this update *may* make standard parties comparable to TP burn parties, time will tell however.

There is one thing I'd like to point out though; Had SE not done that nerf, SAM and DRG would completely dominate colibri and imp camps now. On SAM it's very easy to get enough store tp to ensure over 100 TP returned on penta thrust under the old system.

It's sticking in my head that Meditate used to either be on a one minute timer or else it gave back 100TP with a /sam subjob, I can't remember which, but I do remember it got changed about the same time as TP return on WS. Regardless, if this was still the case pretty much anyone /sam would dominate on Colibri camps. Sure Sam has a high polearm skill, I think so does War, so you get piercing boosts, but any ToAU mob is pretty weak so I'd think drk/sam, or anything /sam would dominate.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

TP Burns are much better than jobs like RNG and BLM excluding everyone else. Every job but SMN and BLM can hold their own in a TP Burn.

Except when its WARx4 or MNKx3 excluding other jobs, then its not any better. Or when people refuse to budge from Whitegate w/o a BRD.

BLM did manaburns exclusively by choice before, but now its just as much about neccessity if they want to see EXP faster than soloing it.