Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

FFXIclopedia entry says Hasso is Haste+10%. JP FFXI dictionary says it's 10%, too.

Where did you get the 5% figure?

He mentioned DRK/DRG earlier, and something about "subbed" haste. Perhaps he got Hasso confused with Wyvern Earring.

[Amele]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I already knew you were one of the sheep, I was just asking for the name of the shepard.
If by tiers, you mean the "cliques" that have formed around TOA burn PTs, yes, I am well-aware of those. They existed in CoP and RoZ, too. I just wasn't aware that self-esteem had fallen so low some WARs and NINs living in thier parent's basement had devised a rating system to go with it.

oh please. just because you're too hung up on being politically correct to call a spade a spade, doesn't mean I have to be. the current melee system is biased in favor of maximizing your attack speed which is best done by three jobs. (four if you're talking about a single fight and not sustained periods of time) until SE changes the formulas in a non-trivial manner (which they do look to be doing this patch) there's no way around that fact. it's hardcoded into the system.
don't act like I've done anything more than put a name to what anyone with half a brain already suspected/knew about the way damage dealers work in this game already.
so if you're looking for my 'sheperd'. you're talking to him. I would've thought you'd know enough about my posting habits by now to know that I don't take direction from others very well . and I've got the math and the formula work (and can gather, if necessary, parses) to back it up.
and no, I'm not a mnk, nin, war, brd, cor, or rdm. so don't think this is me trying to justify my position within the 'clique'.

I'll chalk it up my "ignorance" to the fact I don't have to fight for scraps in the meritpo world. Even if the rest of the world wants to rate BRD vs. COR vs. RDM, they're not really competing.

of course not. everyone's dream party is DDx3, brd|cor x2, rdm. it's only competing for a slot when you wouldn't get taken in addition anyway, which is why only tanks (pre 74) and DD have to 'compete'.

I personally don't care to rate DDs when the merits roll in at the same rate with or without WARx4 and all this epeen gear.

you reference 12-20k (which is a fair figure, we'll ignore 23k+ parties for now) 20k vs 12k is 67% difference. so in the time it takes a 12k party to make 3 merits, the 20k party has made 5. that's hardly the same rate.

So MNK and WAR are "tier I," huh? Funny, they seem to be rather disposable in regards to endgame play, so they got in that category on lolMeritpo? Well, I guess if that's all you have to brag about, its something.

you're obviously not doing much salvage. I did however say this was in particular about merit. not that there aren't tiers in endgame too, as the bolded comment you made here so clearly indicates.

I care more about someone's knowledge and ability to play thier job than parsers of people with BBs and Ridills.

that's great. so do I. it doesn't change the fact that if you put the most knowledgeable sam/x in the world behind the wheels of a pimped BBmnk and gave him a month to get used to the playstyle differences, that he wouldn't do even more damage with the monk than his sam in merit (or that if you handed a sam/thf to a war/thf that he wouldn't do better with a fully powered meditate to drive that SATA+gekko over having to melee trash mobs around the hnm to power that SATA+steel cyclone in the event you can't tp on the hnm itself.)
it's a pretty straight forward concept that variation in DD results in variation in suitability for certain roles. war/nin with comparable gear is just *better* than a sam/x in merit, until the very edge of equipment when sam pulls ahead (because sam got one of the top 4 relic weapons, and warrior got one of the bottom 6 or so.)

You want a cookie for grinding? I'm usually just happy to finish a category, it means I'm one step closer from just having to cap EXP on rare occasions.

sure, I'll take a cookie :D I'm just after the best exp I can get in the limited playtime I have, which means inviting the best DD I can find.
how many people here can *honestly* say they pick the random stranger dragoon or thief over the random stranger war or monk when filling a party if the comments are basically the same?

Exactly, but this rating system serves to undermine this perspective most of the time. If you follow Amele's thinking, you're not looking at the job in terms of the player, but what the job could and what it could have and that's how you invite people. WARs don't come pre-packaged with Ridills and I don't expect them to have one or parse like the WAR who does.

ok, seriously. tiers are a tool to describe the gap between median and peak players of any given job. they aren't a philosophy of life.
and you're right! I don't expect a warrior to have a ridill. but a war in wal-mart gear will still wipe the floor with a dragoon in wal-mart gear, and if I know *neither* of them, then why should I expect either of them to have anything other than wal-mart gear?
and you're either really idealistic or really naive if you seriously think most people don't put melee in categories like this subconsciously. at least I've actually spent time thinking about it.

The short of it is this kind of thing has gone on for years in the game and players really need to fight these so-called standards created by those in endgame. Testing and parsers are all well and good, but in the wrong hands they're taken to hyperbole and forums like Alla, KI and BG excel in this kind of hyperbole. The latter less so, but the work is taken elsewhere and distorted and exaggerated.

alla does parses? (ok seriously) tests will always be taken out of context, but I'm quite serious when I say that the gap between strong dual wielding heavy DD trait jobs with multihit weaponskills and strong 2handed jobs with a little less heavy DD trait with relatively weaker weaponskills isn't balanced today.
SE took a not insignificant amount of power away from dragoon, samurai and dark knight with the ancient multihit tp nerf. it was never given back, leading to the imbalance you see today.

sadly that's not the case for those who abide by the "tier" thinking. People do listen to people who rate job and use parsers. There are plenty swayed by what you could have and what you might be able to parse if you levelled a favored job. As a result, other players get hurt by this.

honestly I wonder what you would like this game to be like sometimes; do you really want every DD job to be completely interchangeable? every tank job to be completely interchangeable? every support healer to be completely interchangeable?
there's MMO's like that, they usually have about 4 classes: Damage Dealer, Healer, Tank, Support/Crowd control.
FFXI would be boring as hell reduced to that. diversity in jobs is good. diversity in jobs leads to imbalances, SE has slowly over time changed the relative ascendancy of different jobs, and in some cases, it has taken the player base years to catch on (monk is a pretty good example, the job hasn't changed substantially since 2004 but it wasn't until recently that the actual value of the job was acknowledged by the player base at large.)
we've got another paradigm change coming up (hopefully); but I don't expect, nor want, the evaluation and comparison of jobs to go away. it's healthy for the game that the player base is this inquisitive and that we're this vocal to SE about it, and if we all just pretend that the plain-as-day power differences don't exist, then SE would never have any reason to change it, and jobs like dragoon, sam, dark, beastmaster, etc. will forever be doomed to be quietly passed over for things they want to do.

[DakAttack]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Role should be common; style unique. Jobs that deal damage all have one thing in common; they deal damage. You should be able to choose one that you identify with, rather than one that gets the job done better than the others, or gets the invites over the others.

[Amele]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Role should be common; style unique. Jobs that deal damage all have one thing in common; they deal damage. You should be able to choose one that you identify with, rather than one that gets the job done better than the others, or gets the invites over the others.

all well and good.

now figure out a way to do it perfectly (within 2%) with 13-14 different jobs, with wildly varying gear and general availability of such; in a manner that doesn't make the only difference between the majority of them what animations they're using.

now do all of this with the understanding that players are going to pervert jobs into the role they fit best whether you intended that role or not.


it's very nearly impossible to have unique styles that are more than cosmetic without introducing *some* variation to the bottom line. fighting games have been trying for decades unsuccessfully.

[Sevv]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Hasso
I told you, 10%. RTFM

I screwed up lmao i had just woke up took a nap after omega.

FFXIclopedia entry says Hasso is Haste+10%. JP FFXI dictionary says it's 10%, too.
Where did you get the 5% figure?

Screwed up and reading alla got it mixed up in my head, god i make one mistake and everyone jumps all over me.

So this makes this even more:

drk haste is:
w turban 5%
dusk gloves 3%
speed belt 6%
homam legs 3%
homam feet 3%
Hasso 10%
-> 30% with hasso up
-> Add a brutal and Homam body to the set now they have double and triple attack
-> new grip would add even more.

currently
Drk-> 30% delay reduction (no tp reduction) double / triple attack meditate
War-> 35% delay reduction (15% tp reduction) high rate of double attack on joyeuse, 10%-15% on maneater of double attack

Now with using the one grip the delay reduction goes to 33% v 35%. The haste isn't an issue for 2handers guys, never was. 2handers have always had a big numbers issue and not too many would switch to a haste set up.

He mentioned DRK/DRG earlier, and something about "subbed" haste. Perhaps he got Hasso confused with Wyvern Earring.

Nope just fuked up on my own lol.

oh please. just because you're too hung up on being politically correct to call a spade a spade, doesn't mean I have to be. the current melee system is biased in favor of maximizing your attack speed which is best done by three jobs. (four if you're talking about a single fight and not sustained periods of time) until SE changes the formulas in a non-trivial manner (which they do look to be doing this patch) there's no way around that fact. it's hardcoded into the system.

Small part is actually most jobs can max their attack speed but war/mnk/nin do it more often then other jobs, communities in 2h jobs generally lol off haste set ups on 2h weapons (have in the past) because of per hit damage dropping slightly. Some people realized the dot is better with haste other just don't, because haste gear takes effort and gil.

don't act like I've done anything more than put a name to what anyone with half a brain already suspected/knew about the way damage dealers work in this game already.

Agreed.

so if you're looking for my 'sheperd'. you're talking to him. I would've thought you'd know enough about my posting habits by now to know that I don't take direction from others very well . and I've got the math and the formula work (and can gather, if necessary, parses) to back it up.
and no, I'm not a mnk, nin, war, brd, cor, or rdm. so don't think this is me trying to justify my position within the 'clique'.

Then gtfo my elitist burn pt =D.

sure, I'll take a cookie :D I'm just after the best exp I can get in the limited playtime I have, which means inviting the best DD I can find.
how many people here can *honestly* say they pick the random stranger dragoon or thief over the random stranger war or monk when filling a party if the comments are basically the same?

I have depending on the set up and camp, but thats because I leveled dragoon >.>

Role should be common; style unique. Jobs that deal damage all have one thing in common; they deal damage. You should be able to choose one that you identify with, rather than one that gets the job done better than the others, or gets the invites over the others.

Never will happen people will always pick one job over the other, unless no matter what gear/abilities they have and defense skills they do the exact same damage 1-2% will always have a favorite. Like i fixed in this point the difference if you haste out a 2h is 5% less delay reduction but without the 15% tp reduction.

[DakAttack]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

all well and good.

now figure out a way to do it perfectly (within 2%) with 13-14 different jobs, with wildly varying gear and general availability of such; in a manner that doesn't make the only difference between the majority of them what animations they're using.

now do all of this with the understanding that players are going to pervert jobs into the role they fit best whether you intended that role or not.


it's very nearly impossible to have unique styles that are more than cosmetic without introducing *some* variation to the bottom line. fighting games have been trying for decades unsuccessfully.

The players haven't perverted anything; it's SE's lenience and slow reaction time that has lead to most of the problems we have today. Blizz has a similar problem, but they've opted to drastically change every job every few months.

Doing it perfectly is a matter of imagination and mathmatics. This isn't really something you can get into depth with without having an in-depth discussion. I'm not sure if you've read any of the job suggestions posts but you can sort of see the balance process in action.

I think keeping things simple would be best.

[Amele]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Small part is actually most jobs can max their attack speed but war/mnk/nin do it more often then other jobs, communities in 2h jobs generally lol off haste set ups on 2h weapons (have in the past) because of per hit damage dropping slightly. Some people realized the dot is better with haste other just don't, because haste gear takes effort and gil.

well. sort of. sam and warrior have comparable overall attack speedup (the 10% extra haste has about the same effect as 20% dual wield) but can't come close to ninja.

the problem is, base delay screws a 2handed melee because you're applying your fstr significantly less often, even with equal attack speed increases. apologies in advance for all the math. I'll sum it up at the end.

a typical value for fstr at 75 (we'll use greater colibri) is 10. (strength = 95~) this is added directly to your weapons damage rating before being multiplied by your pdif.

so a ninja (wielding say, Senji / Perdu ) with standard dual wield and haste gear (haubergeon) will have a net delay of: 73.2 per hand (146~ per attack round.) meaning they get to apply a total of: (32+38+10+10) *PDIF every 146 delay units. or a DMG/delay ratio of .61

a samurai with a hagun in standard haste gear (20%, same as ninja) will have a net delay of 198, and will get to apply a total of: 75+10 * PDIF every 198 delay units. or a DMG/delay ratio of .43

I took double attack out since it was the same for both jobs (easier that way). this ignores weaponskill damage, but tachi:gekko in merit is typically ~800, and that's a pretty common number for blade:Jin too. (for the record, ninja is about 30-40% slower to TP than a 6 hit samurai) but will do much more than that (almost 50% more) in the TP phase.

interestingly, if you take out the FSTR bonuses, you have 70/146 vs 75/198 (.47 vs .44) which is much more balanced.

so it's not just haste. it's the inherent FSTR bonus of dual handed weapons (including H2H) that's the problem currently (and what SE is hopefully fixing.)

if SE goes to FSTR*2, then it becomes 90/146 vs 95/198 (.61 vs .47, about a 30% gap. which is just about the same as the gap between ws rates on the other side.)

at this point the only issue is that the samurai is weilding a hagun with no useful melee stats (just martial bonus to *match* the ninja's 100TP jins) and the ninja has attack+14 accuracy+5 crit+6% ; but depending on the quality of the higher level grips, that may be taken care of too.

tl;dr: (no math!) the way melee damage is calculated on a per hit basis favors a ninja in melee over a sam by a 50% ratio, but favors a sam in weaponskill over ninja by only about a 30% ratio. double the effect of FSTR for 2handed weapons and this becomes 30% vs. 30% which leaves just the extra stats (like att/acc+) on an offhand weapon to make up.

Then gtfo my elitist burn pt =D.

FINE! no raise III for you /cry

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I already knew you were one of the sheep, I was just asking for the name of the shepard.

I haven't read anything past the post where this sentence appeared.

Amele never implied that s/he believed this ranking system was the way it was supposed to be. Or that s/he enjoys the current balance. But there's a reason for this update, you know.

WAR and MNK are top tier DD. Get over it. Yes, as a Warrior my DRG friend regularly outparses me. But I don't have an adaberk/ridill, now do I?

high-end DRG vs high-end Warrior. Granted, I don't think many DRGs really even get into the position to get accurate tests -- but the numbers certainly support the fella that doesn't stop swinging his sword.

And what's worse? He's less of a burden on his party. A DRG/nin is shit. You know it, I know it. There's no other way to get that level of damage mitigation.

I know you like to turn every post into "Why RNG and COR are oppressed by the FF community" but just do me a favor. Stop assuming everyone's a hater.

Amele's not out to get you. Amele's not out to give every non-WAR a bad name.

[Sevv]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

FINE! no raise III for you /cry

part 1 tl;dq -> the majority of my post was to respond to the fact people said 2h like drg or dark couldn't match the haste / delay reduction a war/nin uses. But I understand the math ty for posting it.

part 2 -> Whm (who is skilled!!!!!) is always welcome in my merit pts -invites Amele to 30k/hr onry!-

[Amele]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I haven't read anything past the post where this sentence appeared.
Amele never implied that she believed this ranking system was entirely accurate. But there's a reason for this update, you know.
WAR and MNK are top tier DD. Get over it. Yes, as a Warrior my DRG friend regularly outparses me. But I don't have an adaberk/ridill, now do I?
high-end DRG vs high-end Warrior. Granted, I don't think many DRGs really even get into the position to get accurate tests -- but the numbers certainly support the fella that doesn't stop swinging his sword.
And what's worse? He's less of a burden on his party. A DRG/nin is shit. You know it, I know it. There's no other way to get that level of damage mitigation.
I know you like to turn every post into "Why RNG and COR are oppressed by the FF community" but just do me a favor. Stop assuming everyone's a hater.
Amele's not out to get you. Amele's not out to give every non-WAR a bad name.

yeah, I'm not even leveling one of the (un?)holy trinity jobs myself haha.

drg/rdm with an ethereal and armet is equivalent damage mitigation if you can teach your healers to leave them alone (the damage will generate more mp than it costs to heal the damage with healing breath.)

but it's still a crap sub for parsing purposes, since you lose either: 10% haste, 10accuracy 5 strength, (hasso); or 10% double attack, warcry, and berserk.

[Sevv]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I haven't read anything past the post where this sentence appeared.
Amele never implied that she believed this ranking system was entirely accurate. But there's a reason for this update, you know.

Ok so it wasn't only me that got that.

WAR and MNK are top tier DD. Get over it. Yes, as a Warrior my DRG friend regularly outparses me. But I don't have an adaberk/ridill, now do I?
high-end DRG vs high-end Warrior.

Without homam and without full heca, I parsed behind by 7.5% as /sam versus a ridill/aberk fully merited war (one of the best on ifrit). I wasn't careful on alot of my ws didn't know we were parsing, and was slow on macro gear changes back. If I was more careful and paying a bit more attention I would probably have been about 6% back in about 300 fights. This was the Mamjool Savage camp in Nyzule Isle. If I can get in contact with him I will try to get exact parse #'s.
Party was: Brd Whm War/Nin Drg/Sam Nin/War Bst/Nin

Granted, I don't think many DRGs really even get into the position to get accurate tests -- but the numbers certainly support the fella that doesn't stop swinging his sword.
And what's worse? He's less of a burden on his party. A DRG/nin is shit. You know it, I know it. There's no other way to get that level of damage mitigation.

/sam works well in damage mitigation no where close to utsu, but it helps.

I know you like to turn every post into "Why RNG and COR are oppressed by the FF community" but just do me a favor. Stop assuming everyone's a hater.
Amele's not out to get you. Amele's not out to give every non-WAR a bad name.

Bolded for the truth.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Funny you should mention 2 handers laughing off haste Sev. Two of my friends (we're all lv 75 SAM now, I was last to ding) say SAM doesn't need haste.

And yet whenever I go /WAR (tried /DRG a few times for jumps and earring) and gear up with haste (I need more haste gear ><) and soboro I WS like a mad man.

Soboro + Haste + 6/100 = WS spam out the ass.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

yeah, I'm not even leveling one of the (un?)holy trinity jobs myself haha.

And?

You don't have to be in the golden child jobs to be part of the problem. All you have to be is vocal and rate where people can see it. You're vocal.

And really, the act doesn't work. I've seen what you've said about others on this forum elsewhere. Grow a spine and learn to agree to disagree with others opinions or just ignore them if you can't. Don't scurry to BG and huddle up with Tokitoki, BPR and Asdrafail to talk shit about people here just because you can't agree with them.

I have the links, I could name names. But that's just more drama.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I could out solo you all. Where are the grips for RDM!?!!?!?

I'd like one that would keep my hat on my head, because my soul is so blindingly hardcore that if I didn't stop to take a breather every now and then, it would unleash it's potential and start impregnating women. Possibly even men. I don't want to find out about the latter though.

But in all seriousness:

Stuff

I loled.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I loled.

I lolmnoped