Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

[Sevv]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Wow lol,

Amele ty for clearing up what way and context.

Pics where is feba to yell at you for wasting bandwith.

[Amele]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

do we need to start putting <nsfw> tags on our posts?
I don't really think a pimped out Soboro sam/rng is actually broken... well maybe, but not compared to Ridill WARs. But I think that if we had a grip that gave you 30% extra tp/swing, then we'd have some issues.
Then again, I'd love to see a Double Attack 10% Grip. It'd stack with jailer weapons, still. But meh. 2A +5%, Critical hit rate +5%, Store TP +5... I wouldn't complain.

to be totally honest, store TP+5 in a free slot would be enough to make me happy, it lets you keep 6 hit TP with rajas and ditch the hachi feet for fuma/amir.

or if you had your usu sune-ate, you could drop the rajas for a second accuracy ring (etc etc).

I'm mostly expecting a mix of 'crit+%, att+, accuracy+, and delay-% gear, with possibly subtle blow, store TP, and *maybe* double attack or triple attack in the 1-2% range for attack grips

if they implement defensive grips I'm expecting them to look like shield stats (def+, damage-%, etc)

and mage grips will probably be lame things like 'mnd+, int+' in numbers in the area of 2. or 8 grips - one for each element- that we can't carry around anyway since most mages only have 5 or 6 slots left if they're lucky.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

as for asshat; I was under the impression that the tiers for merit parties were pretty well understood and general knowledge at this point?

I mean, seriously. who can outparse an S/P or P/U ninja in 15% double attack 22% haste and 35% dualwield, a monk with 25% haste and a pair of destroyers that parse better than some relics or a warrior with 1.3k rampages, three major DD JA's, 22% haste, 20% double attack *and* 20% dualwield, versus mobs that aren't inherently weak to any particular weapon type? (I realize that a ranger can absolutely destroy colibri, haven't seen one even come close to a good BB/destroyers monk on mamool)

it pretty much takes a relic for most other jobs, and in some cases not even then. (lolragnarok) sam is strong as hell in merit; the gap in 2 handed weapons is too much to overcome currently.

I already knew you were one of the sheep, I was just asking for the name of the shepard.

If by tiers, you mean the "cliques" that have formed around TOA burn PTs, yes, I am well-aware of those. They existed in CoP and RoZ, too. I just wasn't aware that self-esteem had fallen so low some WARs and NINs living in thier parent's basement had devised a rating system to go with it.

I'll chalk it up my "ignorance" to the fact I don't have to fight for scraps in the meritpo world. Even if the rest of the world wants to rate BRD vs. COR vs. RDM, they're not really competing. I personally don't care to rate DDs when the merits roll in at the same rate with or without WARx4 and all this epeen gear.

So MNK and WAR are "tier I," huh? Funny, they seem to be rather disposable in regards to endgame play, so they got in that category on lolMeritpo? Well, I guess if that's all you have to brag about, its something.

I care more about someone's knowledge and ability to play thier job than parsers of people with BBs and Ridills. Job names, LS prestige and gear mean little to me when just about any PT can do 12-20k in about an hour or a little more. I've done the 30k/hr PTs, too, its nice, but still a grind. You want a cookie for grinding? I'm usually just happy to finish a category, it means I'm one step closer from just having to cap EXP on rare occasions.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Meh soboro ws damage is alot weaker, soboro is essential to sidewinder spam tho. Sam/thf is potent as hell so i would not touch people who sam/thf getting shot comment. Arguement i'm not up for it.



Jailer tier system is 1 -> 2 -> 3. Just going with the system =D

- _ - I said SAM/THF who use Soboro should be shot, not the combo itself. RTFM.

That's also why I say /WAR is great for Soboro. Berserk really helps to make up for the loss of WS damage over Hagun. They parse at about even since all the WS you fire off plus the DoT from Soboro even out, and maybe even push ahead with enough haste (or if skillchains were actually worthwhile, then Soboro would just dominate)

[tdh]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Assless chaps & beef cake. Sounds like a Deny's special.

Finally joining the fray here, since it's been so damn busy at work today, but they better have some damn good Grips come Lv.70+. 3% at Lv.55, isn't horrible, but it's not good either. Considering jobs like MNK, who honestly don't need as much Haste as they have access to, can have Haste+11% at Lv.40 and Haste+15% at Lv.50. All the while a 2hander (DRK, DRG, and SAM to an effect) would then be stuck at 7% (SAM going to +10% from gear, then another 10% from Hasso.). Nevermind a MNK can have 3 attack rounds per one Scythe swing.

Of course these things are going to be hella expensive for a while. Unless they are all bought from a NPC some place, which would be very nice, they're prices are going to be through the roof because they are absolutely required. But odds are these will be Clothcraft &/or Leathercrafter's wet dreams as everybody rushes out to get one, and others migrate to (i.e. back to) these jobs.

Let's compare a WAR/NIN with a Haste build of +20% (Turban, Speed Belt, Dusk hands & feet, and Byakko's Haidate), and just a Joy~toy to a DRK using a GS (Faster of our 2handed weapons) who is stuck at 15% Haste if they have the same resources the WAR does.

DRK: Balin's Sword - DLY:480 with Haste+15% and no grip has 6.9 seconds between swings, and 13% TP a hit topping out at 8 hits to 104%.

WAR: Maneater & Joyeuse - DLY:276 & DLY:224 with Haste+20% means an attack round ever 5.6 seconds and 5.4% TP per weapon, with 19 hits to 102.6%.

-- NO STORE TP GEAR FACTORED IN ABOVE NUMBERS --

Every 5.6 seconds this WAR has a chance of 0 to 4 hits. Netting anywhere from 0 to 21.6% TP while the DRK, who's forced to sub NIN as well because he's a MP sponge, only got 13% TP. Who do you want in your Meripo? I also did not factor in a Ridill WAR, because that have put the WAR far and away above just about anything.

Abs-TP greatly help DRKs get to Lv.70, but at Lv.70 we were immediately put at a disadvantage because everybody wanted to camp at places where we couldn't use our Dark Magic spells. (Reflecting Colibri & Imps who are crazy resistant to EVERYTHING, or Jnun who are undead.) Same thing is happening in Meripos. Trying to cap my DRK EXP recently, and everybody wants to go to Nyzle Staging point for Greater Colibri and Imps. They're great camps, but a DRK's dead weight. (Colibri eat our food, so when we miss we really notice it or Imps completely resist everything except Stun.) DRK especially would need a -10% grip to even come close to being considered, or give DRK a multi hit weapon like a lot of other jobs. (There is a Multi hit GS, but it's WAR & PLD only.) And since I know it's coming, please spare me the Kraken/Ridill DRK argument. Yes, they're awesome ever 2 hours, or with cap'd Sword and Axe merits, but the normal populous do not have the resources to score a Kraken and a Ridill.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

If by tiers, you mean the "cliques" that have formed around TOA burn PTs, yes, I am well-aware of those.

Meh, this game is mostly about forming cliques anyway. You just call them "statics", and it sounds less harsh.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Meh, this game is mostly about forming cliques anyway. You just call them "statics", and it sounds less harsh.

A static is a set group that meets at set times to do a set activity. While this has its extent of exclusivity, its not as snotty as the "WARx4 Onry" clique. I never had respect for the "Arrowburn Only" BRDs back in the day, why would I respect players who are inconsiderate to others and ignore PT mechanics now?

I can be as cold and efficient as the next guy, but last I checked, the game was also supposed to be about meeting different people in other jobs with different RLs and interacting/socializing with them. A common interest is always nice, but the game is supposed to be about having fun and being social too. How are you social if you never try new things?

[BurningPanther]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Meh, this game is mostly about forming cliques anyway. You just call them "statics", and it sounds less harsh.

Nah, the politically correct term in this game is "Linkshell."

[Sevv]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I already knew you were one of the sheep, I was just asking for the name of the shepard.
If by tiers, you mean the "cliques" that have formed around TOA burn PTs, yes, I am well-aware of those. They existed in CoP and RoZ, too. I just wasn't aware that self-esteem had fallen so low some WARs and NINs living in thier parent's basement had devised a rating system to go with it.

First time I had hear about tiers but we all do it unoffically, we know some jobs are better in different areas so we invite them first we all do it.

I'll chalk it up my "ignorance" to the fact I don't have to fight for scraps in the meritpo world. Even if the rest of the world wants to rate BRD vs. COR vs. RDM, they're not really competing.

This is true brd and cor compete for one spot where as rdm and whm compete for the other truly if people wanted to get into that debate again.

I personally don't care to rate DDs when the merits roll in at the same rate with or without WARx4 and all this epeen gear.
So MNK and WAR are "tier I," huh? Funny, they seem to be rather disposable in regards to endgame play, so they got in that category on lolMeritpo? Well, I guess if that's all you have to brag about, its something.

War does good damage endgame wise where as monk is stuck to chi blast, merit pt is not the full game neither is endgame.

I care more about someone's knowledge and ability to play thier job than parsers of people with BBs and Ridills. Job names, LS prestige and gear mean little to me when just about any PT can do 12-20k in about an hour or a little more. I've done the 30k/hr PTs, too, its nice, but still a grind. You want a cookie for grinding? I'm usually just happy to finish a category, it means I'm one step closer from just having to cap EXP on rare occasions.

Gear doesn't make the player, anyone who has some ties to endgame knows there is plenty of wasted ridill, bb, a berk etc. Gear makes a shitty player decent, a decent player average, and average player good, and a good player great. If your great w/o the gear your just a great player. Gear only helps you in a parse.

- _ - I said SAM/THF who use Soboro should be shot, not the combo itself. RTFM.
That's also why I say /WAR is great for Soboro. Berserk really helps to make up for the loss of WS damage over Hagun. They parse at about even since all the WS you fire off plus the DoT from Soboro even out, and maybe even push ahead with enough haste (or if skillchains were actually worthwhile, then Soboro would just dominate)

Didn't see you mentioned it as soboro and /thf sorry I didn't cetch it my bad.

Assless chaps & beef cake. Sounds like a Deny's special.
Finally joining the fray here, since it's been so damn busy at work today, but they better have some damn good Grips come Lv.70+. 3% at Lv.55, isn't horrible, but it's not good either. Considering jobs like MNK, who honestly don't need as much Haste as they have access to, can have Haste+11% at Lv.40 and Haste+15% at Lv.50. All the while a 2hander (DRK, DRG, and SAM to an effect) would then be stuck at 7% (SAM going to +10% from gear, then another 10% from Hasso.). Nevermind a MNK can have 3 attack rounds per one Scythe swing.

Aside from BB and Byakko's haidate most of the haste gear can be subbed for haste. Takes some work to get the haste gear as does a bb or haidate. Drk/Drg for instance get homam can get hasso for 5% and the grip for reduction the only unbalanced part is dw II.

Of course these things are going to be hella expensive for a while. Unless they are all bought from a NPC some place, which would be very nice, they're prices are going to be through the roof because they are absolutely required. But odds are these will be Clothcraft &/or Leathercrafter's wet dreams as everybody rushes out to get one, and others migrate to (i.e. back to) these jobs.
Let's compare a WAR/NIN with a Haste build of +20% (Turban, Speed Belt, Dusk hands & feet, and Byakko's Haidate), and just a Joy~toy to a DRK using a GS (Faster of our 2handed weapons) who is stuck at 15% Haste if they have the same resources the WAR does.
DRK: Balin's Sword - DLY:480 with Haste+15% and no grip has 6.9 seconds between swings, and 13% TP a hit topping out at 8 hits to 104%.
WAR: Maneater & Joyeuse - DLY:276 & DLY:224 with Haste+20% means an attack round ever 5.6 seconds and 5.4% TP per weapon, with 19 hits to 102.6%.
-- NO STORE TP GEAR FACTORED IN ABOVE NUMBERS --
Every 5.6 seconds this WAR has a chance of 0 to 4 hits. Netting anywhere from 0 to 21.6% TP while the DRK, who's forced to sub NIN as well because he's a MP sponge, only got 13% TP. Who do you want in your Meripo? I also did not factor in a Ridill WAR, because that have put the WAR far and away above just about anything.
Abs-TP greatly help DRKs get to Lv.70, but at Lv.70 we were immediately put at a disadvantage because everybody wanted to camp at places where we couldn't use our Dark Magic spells. (Reflecting Colibri & Imps who are crazy resistant to EVERYTHING, or Jnun who are undead.) Same thing is happening in Meripos. Trying to cap my DRK EXP recently, and everybody wants to go to Nyzle Staging point for Greater Colibri and Imps. They're great camps, but a DRK's dead weight. (Colibri eat our food, so when we miss we really notice it or Imps completely resist everything except Stun.) DRK especially would need a -10% grip to even come close to being considered, or give DRK a multi hit weapon like a lot of other jobs. (There is a Multi hit GS, but it's WAR & PLD only.) And since I know it's coming, please spare me the Kraken/Ridill DRK argument. Yes, they're awesome ever 2 hours, or with cap'd Sword and Axe merits, but the normal populous do not have the resources to score a Kraken and a Ridill.

drk haste is:
w turban 5%
dusk gloves 3%
speed belt 6%
homam legs 3%
homam feet 3%
Hasso 5%
-> 25% with hasso up
-> Add a brutal and Homam body to the set now they have double and triple attack
-> new grip would add even more.

A static is a set group that meets at set times to do a set activity. While this has its extent of exclusivity, its not as snotty as the "WARx4 Onry" clique. I never had respect for the "Arrowburn Only" BRDs back in the day, why would I respect players who are inconsiderate to others and ignore PT mechanics now?
I can be as cold and efficient as the next guy, but last I checked, the game was also supposed to be about meeting different people in other jobs with different RLs and interacting/socializing with them. A common interest is always nice, but the game is supposed to be about having fun and being social too. How are you social if you never try new things?

I agree I don't like the war burn only people usually I don't invite them and i burn alot, but then again I am all about ls/friends > random people and then exp is exp.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

get hasso for 5% and the grip for reduction the only unbalanced part is dw II.

Hasso only loses STR when subbed. The Acc and Haste Bonus are +10 at every level whether SAM is sub or main.

[Sevv]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Hasso only loses STR when subbed. The Acc and Haste Bonus are +10 at every level whether SAM is sub or main.

the unbalanced part was talking about delay reduction not the str.

hasso is 10% "haste" (i screwed up gtfo lol. that is waht happens when you read alla the stupid gets into your brain)

dual wield II is 15% but also reduces tp gained.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

Gear doesn't make the player, anyone who has some ties to endgame knows there is plenty of wasted ridill, bb, a berk etc. Gear makes a shitty player decent, a decent player average, and average player good, and a good player great. If your great w/o the gear your just a great player. Gear only helps you in a parse.

Exactly, but this rating system serves to undermine this perspective most of the time. If you follow Amele's thinking, you're not looking at the job in terms of the player, but what the job could and what it could have and that's how you invite people. WARs don't come pre-packaged with Ridills and I don't expect them to have one or parse like the WAR who does.

I actually had a long reply to this but the site timed out on me. The short of it is this kind of thing has gone on for years in the game and players really need to fight these so-called standards created by those in endgame. Testing and parsers are all well and good, but in the wrong hands they're taken to hyperbole and forums like Alla, KI and BG excel in this kind of hyperbole. The latter less so, but the work is taken elsewhere and distorted and exaggerated.

I know this COR, she thinks Martial Gun is the bee's knees and snots on other CORs for using anything else. Her basis for this is tests done on the Blue Gartyr forums. I've seen the tests and I take them at face value and after taking Martial Gun for a stroll after unlocking Coffinmaker and I - along with most other CORs - still prefer Coffinmaker for DD with Peacemaker for backup on QD.

The reason is simple. While the TP bonus of Martial Gun is nice, Coffinmaker is the perfect balance between Martial Gun and Corsair's Gun. Let's just look at the guns for a second:






I go with Coffinmaker + Peacemaker because Coffinmaker gives the best of both DD guns and its free . And Peacemaker - while not amazing for DD or even QD damage - is the best merit pulling gun, our best gun for sleeping with Light Shot and best option for unresisted QDs in endgame. So instead of carrying three different guns for varying DD situations, I can just use Coffinmaker and bring Peacemaker along in case a different role is needed.

But this knuckhead still insists Martial gun is the one-and-only gun CORs should have based on a few tests. Whatever. I'm glad she's the hyperbole for herself and no one with good sense takes her seriously, sadly that's not the case for those who abide by the "tier" thinking. People do listen to people who rate job and use parsers. There are plenty swayed by what you could have and what you might be able to parse if you levelled a favored job. As a result, other players get hurt by this.

The way things trickle down from endgame level (typically for the worse) hasn't changed one bit. Trends change, but the flaw of rating jobs remains the same and hurts the experience. I wish players would just try to fight that kind of thinking.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

I would just like to point everyone to the third quote in my sig.

That is all.

[Malacite]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

the unbalanced part was talking about delay reduction not the str.

hasso is 5% "haste"

dual wield II is 15% but also reduces tp gained.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Hasso

• A level 75 samurai will gain a boost of +10 STR, +10 Accuracy, and +10% haste for melee attacks. The STR boost is based on the level of the Samurai (At Lv.25, the boost is +3 STR, but at Lv.75, the boost is +10 STR.) When SAM is set as a subjob, the STR value is as would be for a SAM of that level; i.e., for a MAIN75/SAM37, Hasso will boost STR by 5, as SAM receives a +5 at 37. Other boosts remain constant.
• Hasso's +10% melee haste effect will not reduce the amount of TP gained per hit.
• Hasso's +10% melee haste effect is considered Job Ability haste.

I told you, 10%. RTFM

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle system adjustment 8/14/07

hasso is 5% "haste"

FFXIclopedia entry says Hasso is Haste+10%. JP FFXI dictionary says it's 10%, too.

Where did you get the 5% figure?