The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

[BurningPanther]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

S-E wants this: "white mage remains totally dedicated to keeping their party alive, no matter what. No other job should fulfill this role as well as the white mage."
Look at the wording carefully: 1) The company does not want to give WHM substantially new role(s). 2) It says keeping the party "alive", not keeping the party "going".
WHM is all that already; what many player are whining about is going beyond S-E's parameters and make WHM a better endurance healer. That was never S-E's intention, I think.
This is why I disagree with the assertion that S-E isn't keeping the promise for WHM.

I see what you're getting at, but even still, that doesn't change that fact that a problem remains, does it? In the end, the specialist is gets passed over for the support role with more endurance, and the support gets pigeonholed into the specialist's role.

Whether S-E intended WHM to be the best healer in heavier situations or not, a problem arises when those heavy situations become rare enough that a WHM isn't needed, which suggests that the WHM might not be needed.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

Doens't matter how well WHM does what it does, RDM is taking most of its invites because it does WHM's job well enough an can keep the pace with other PTs. And it puts RDM in a position that do not want to be in, yet they can't seem to get invites to do what they do best.

It is a problem and saying WHM is the best at what it does will not make it go away. WHM needs some more endurance if SE really intends for the EXP situation to remain the same as ToA in the future.

SE's failure to follow through on improving BST is beyond disgusting. Just about every other job has gotten an adjustment, save for a few, and BST isn't even priority enough to get adjustments after COR, BLU or PUP. BSTs have to wait after the WotG jobs are out, which just makes me worry SE has yet another pet job waiting in the wings that they'll implement poorly.

[Malacite]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

That's exactly my point, which I'm not sure how Ifrit missed but w/e


WHM is the healing specialist. By that logic, they should be able to heal better than anyone else. So why is it that a RDM can do their job and outlast them while doing it? That's BS. MP conserving abilities or not, RDM shouldn't be more efficient at healing than WHM.

This is why I believe WHM should get a large boost to their healing power, so they don't have to spend as much MP on cures. This could easily come in the form of healing magic skill boosting cure spells based on skill. Since RDM has a much lower skill rating, Refresh and Convert would be needed to keep up with WHM rather than out do it.

For example, Cure caps at 30 without any extra MND or a light staff. Under the current system, there is no difference between say a lv 18 WHM who can consistently hit 30 HP a cure, and a 75 WHM with well over 5 times the skill level of healing magic.

This needs to change, and the same goes for elemental magic IMO. Most abilities scale up in power with skill, so why don't others? (Healing, Dark, Elemental*, Ninjutsu, Summoning*)

*I'm aware spells like burn go up with skill, but the basic elemental nukes do not, and the same seems to ninjutsu, and Dark Magic is an enigma. Summoning magic only gives a boost if you have more skill than your current cap which is a complete load of bull shit from SE. How about increased avatar and BP performance as skill level increases?


back on track, a 75 WHM should be able to cure for say 50-70 HP with a cure 1 with all that increased skill and the same should apply to the higher level spells and not just Cure V.

That's it for now, g2g.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

That's exactly my point, which I'm not sure how Ifrit missed but w/e

I did not miss it--I merely disagree with your assessment that S-E didn't keep its promise to WHM.

It's also pretty useless to keep pointing out "pink mage" to me. But, as you said, "w/e".

* * *

I understand what people are saying about RDM able to fill WHM's role, and have experienced it first hand--my RDM leveled to 69 mostly as RDM/WHM. However, I disagree with the majority sentiment on how much of a problem that is, given how often I see WHM in parties.

Here's a test: if you see ___(some job)___ in every exp party, then either that job is broken, or the game is--no job should be impossible to exp without.

I don't want to see WHM broken, and I don't want to see the game broken. It's a good thing that more than one job can fill the healer role.

* * *

Do many WHM go seeking without finding parties? Sure. However, is that because RDM's are able to function as a healer? Or, no tank/refresher are seeking at the time? Or, could it be that WHM is the most popular job in Vana'diel, so they often compete with themselves for the healer spot in the party?

Or, is it a mixture of all three factors?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

Pointing to the census is absolutely pointless. WHM is one of the most common subjobs in the game, one of the six starter jobs and if you're just making a mule, you just land on WHM first anyway.

The starter jobs are in the top eight jobs, they were the jobs we all started out as and what a lot of people were when there was just FFXI and no expansions, half the jobs were open at the start. PLD, DRK, RNG, BRD, BST came later and SMN came out near the very end.

Three more jobs in RoZ, then three more in ToA.

What job can add some utility to all of these?

White Mage.

But does that mean everyone plays a WHM to 75?

Nope. Its by far one of the least appealing roles to take that far.

[BurningPanther]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

Yeah, the census is a terrible indicator for anything. It only proves S-E can cobble together numbers without really understanding them. The starting six are evenly the most popular, not only are most of the potentially incredibly powerful(for those who take them all the way), but the starting six also form the basis for rather strong subjob choices. Obviously, as 'kitten pointed out, the best of these being WHM. Even melees, when not in group play(farming, soloing in general), will /WHM for curative ability when alone. It's not uncommon to see NIN/WHM or PLD/WHM skilling up solo in Boyahda Tree. It's not the most popular job period, just the most popular to take to 37.

And again, it's not like WHM hurts for invites like a PUP might, if there is a WHM seeking, it's usually not long before they get picked up, usually in tandem with a RDM. But if someone sees that BRD+RDM, or COR+RDM combo, WHM will likely be left in the cold, and it's becoming more and more prevalent.

[Malacite]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

I agree that it's a good thing WHM isn't the only healer around by far, however there 's a nasty trend where if a RDM is seeking, the WHM is SOL. At least that's how it seems to be most of the time on Seraph (in my experience anyway)


And honestly, while I love RDM's endurance, it's always nice to know that if the shit hits the fan there's someone waiting to cast Raise 3 on me ^ _ ^

*WHM Huggle!*


I'd just like to see SE give WHM the appropriate boost for endurance it needs. RDM's abilities to maintain it's MP are amazing, but it shouldn't be giving it the edge that it does over WHM is all I'm saying. I really don't think it would ruin the game if SE beefed up WHM's healing power (again by altering how healing magic skill factors in) so that they could get more mileage out of their cures. Either that or come up with some unique WHM traits that can't be used when WHM is subbed. Perhaps a new trait akin to MAB, but for cures?


I still think the answer lies in changing healing skill (and the other skills I mentioned earlier. Seriously, you're gonna tell me that there's next to no difference between a lv 1 and a lv 75 mage casting the same spell regardless of skill level? (things like MAB aside) Bull crap.

[Silent Howler]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

Refresh and Convert would be needed to keep up with WHM rather than out do it.

/sighed

[BurningPanther]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

It's not that WHM's healing abilities are weak, it's that RDM's are more than adequate to fill most situations. Acceptable healing capability, combined with superior mana-longevity, makes RDM the preffered healer.

There's two remedies that could be applied here:

Finally FIX Healing skill. Make it so skill counts more for Cure potency than MND, thereby making the difference between C- skill(RDM), and A+ skill(WHM), too big too ignore. A step further would be to remove Cure 4, though I think with a fix to Healing skill, Cure 4 would become such a hate-stealing mana-sink, that no one would want to rely on it either way. Of course, this also wouldn't do PLD any favors, less HP healed means less hate gained.

A second option doesn't nerf an aspect of any job, but rather the playing environment. Increase the HP, DEF, damage capability of mobs, particularly those in Sanction areas. The longer it takes to kill something, and the bigger the threat of damage that shadows don't save your from, the more need you have for higher-octane curing.

That, or give every Sanction mob a "Break Spikes" effect... then you'd HAVE to have some Stona on-hand! =P

Anyway, those are some scenarios. No telling what'll happen, I'm more in support of the former than the latter. Healing skill is way overdue to be made relevant anyways.

[Legal Fish]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

WHMs don't need cure potency, they need more MP conversation. Healing Skill should go the way of Summoning Skill and give a benefit when brought over a certain cap, a cap based on WHM's skill(making it pretty unaccessible to /WHM and RDM). Make it give % off MP cost.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

Pointing to the census is absolutely pointless. WHM is one of the most common subjobs in the game, one of the six starter jobs and if you're just making a mule, you just land on WHM first anyway.

The starter jobs are in the top eight jobs, they were the jobs we all started out as and what a lot of people were when there was just FFXI and no expansions, half the jobs were open at the start. PLD, DRK, RNG, BRD, BST came later and SMN came out near the very end.

Three more jobs in RoZ, then three more in ToA.

What job can add some utility to all of these?

White Mage.

But does that mean everyone plays a WHM to 75?

Nope. Its by far one of the least appealing roles to take that far.

Interesting reasoning, but a fast research on how S-E gets the stats reveals that since 2005 census:

Please note that the following numbers exclude level 1 characters, which are generally known as "mules" or "storage characters." Such characters are used mainly for item storage, synthesis, or gardening. These level 1 characters comprise a sizable 41% of the total number of characters in FINAL FANTASY XI. Assuming that a character's highest-level job is his or her "main job," we have compiled the data below.

Yes, WHM is one of the most popular job in Vana'diel; that's the truth.
2005: 14.83%
2006: 16%
2007: 16%

Given that so many players' highest level job is WHM, I think it's reasonable to assume similar (but not identical) proportion of population seeking party are also WHM's.

* * *

Just because you do not find the healing role to be appealing, doesn't mean others do not.

* * *

Anyway, now would you believe WHM's are often competitors to each other for party slots? It's not the only factor, but it can't be an non-issue when every single WHM your level can fill your role in nearly identical manner, and there are so many of them.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!



Where are they now? SE's just counting the ones that have 75, not active WHMs. That's the flaw of pointing at the graph. If we were talking any other MMORPG, it might be slightly accurate information, that is, if you couldn't just start another character in another job and level that instead. And that is usually possible.

But what does FFXI do? We get to switch to any job we please! So somone can level WHM to 75, shelve it and then level something else.

The job you are on the most is your "main" job.

The graph doesn't account for that, its just counting jobs people levelled since they started. Just because someone has some job at high levels doesn't mean they still play it.

[BurningPanther]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

Interesting reasoning, but a fast research on how S-E gets the stats reveals that since 2005 census:
Yes, WHM is one of the most popular job in Vana'diel; that's the truth.
2005: 14.83%
2006: 16%
2007: 16%
Given that so many players' highest level job is WHM, I think it's reasonable to assume similar (but not identical) proportion of population seeking party are also WHM's.
* * *
Just because you do not find the healing role to be appealing, doesn't mean others do not.
* * *
Anyway, now would you believe WHM's are often competitors to each other for party slots? It's not the only factor, but it can't be an non-issue when every single WHM your level can fill your role in nearly identical manner, and there are so many of them.

That supposed popularity doesn't reconcile with that lack of availability of the job in previous years. Just because someone takes a job to 75, doesn't make it the favored. it's no different then those who take up BRD or RDM for merit-whoring, or HNM, or other large scale events. They pull out the job to give them some leverage for something they want that they might not otherwise get on their preferred job, then put it back on the shelf when they're done.

Are there people who simple love to play pure support, pure healing? Sure. I can count them all on one hand. But many more prefer more action oriented jobs, the reason you see any sort of popularity in the WHM's numbers is likely because those who prefer action-oriented roles would get the things they seek quicker with it.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

/sigh
Just because you have a notion in your head, it doesn't mean it's right (or wrong); evidence is a good thing to have.

On Ifrit, at about 10:40 p.m. PDT:

/sea all 5-74:____ 1250 (100%)
/sea all 5-74 WHM:_ 139 11.1%
/sea all 5-74 RDM:_ 118 09.4%
/sea all 5-74 WAR:_ 119 09.5%
/sea all 5-74 MNK:__ 87 07.0%

Yes, it doesn't cover /anon people, but it should be a good indication that WHM is about 11.1% of the population at that point in time--hardly an unpopular job.

[Malacite]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

WHMs don't need cure potency, they need more MP conversation. Healing Skill should go the way of Summoning Skill and give a benefit when brought over a certain cap, a cap based on WHM's skill(making it pretty unaccessible to /WHM and RDM). Make it give % off MP cost.

Yeah, WHM's MP really doesn't talk enough.


Seriously though you have got to be kidding about that last part. Skill over the cap? That's most ridiculous, lazy ass excuse for a fix SE has ever done (next to the great RNG nerf, though that was more of a despirate measure)


Remove cure caps, change healing skill to have a much heavier (and beneficial) effect on cures, and raise PLD's healing skill to B+/- (no higher). Problem solved.