The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

[Murphie]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

Yes, nobody rushes to play the new jobs when an expansion comes out. Never happens.

Ok. So let's make a job so that people can rush to level it out of novelty, and then go back to their DD jobs.

As you said, it's a short term solution at best.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

Adding more healing and tanking jobs isn't going to make more people want to heal and tank, people. Jesus.

If they have radically different functions than the jobs that came before them, and melee ability to boot, they could very well be appealing to the DD-minded player.

Legal is right, though, if they set up the jobs with role versatility in mind like they did BLU, COR and PUP, then that would be the right way to go about it.

We certainly do not need more dedicated damage dealers. But we could use a new breed of tank or healer that can move into other roles.

[Murphie]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

If they have radically different functions than the jobs that came before them, and can melee to boot, while still tanking and healing, then why would anyone play any other job?

[Feba]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

If they have radically different functions than the jobs that came before them, and melee ability to boot, they could very well be appealing to the DD-minded player.

people said the same thing about COR.

[Illuen]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

people said the same thing about COR.

And although I love the COR job very much, and think it is a interesting and great asset, nearly nobody plays it now that the initial newness has worn off.

As I've said many times, my two ideal additions would be Geomancer and Dancer. I am hoping they add jobs, as the potential (the skills/abilities that time forgot, so to speak) leaves open a wide range of storyline possibilities. I do think that this will be a deeply plot/mission expansion, but there will of course be other things, and if those things involve giving the /dance emote an animation, everything will be hunky dory by me.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

If they have radically different functions than the jobs that came before them, and can melee to boot, while still tanking and healing, then why would anyone play any other job?

Whole point of FFXI should be to play the roles you liked from the series. Its natural for people to want the jobs they liked from the series, I fail to see the problem with wanting those jobs.

If you liked Cloud, Cyan and Auron, you're a SAM.
If you liked Setzer, Lady Luck, Wakka and Cait Sith, you're a COR.
If you liked Rydia, Dagger, Eiko and Yuna, you're a SMN.
If you liked Locke, Rikku and Yuffie, you're a THF.
If you liked Sabin, Yang, Tifa and Zell, you're a MNK.
If you liked Edge and Shadow, you're a NIN.
If you liked Gau, Strago and Quistis, you're a BLU.

But what if you liked Mog?
What if you liked Vincent?
What if you liked Alchemist in FFT or FFX-2?

There aren't really jobs that match them. Vincent wasn't exactly a Ranger, what with the beast transformations and becoming an uncontrollable monster.

There's still some ground to cover.

people said the same thing about COR.

It's not SE's problem that the population is a bunch of penny-pinchers and still whipped on doing things the old way. Some of that can change in time.

I got no complaints about my lack of competition in this job, we're small but a very loud bunch.

Took NAs years to warm up to the idea of playing/desiring a BRD or DRK. For BRD, it just took the eventual realization of what it could do, as far DRK went, SE had to create a light bulb and show the numbskull populace they were good.

[Murphie]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

People (not just a few, but most) base the job they play on the character from previous FF games that they liked? What on earth makes you think that?

If a job is introduced that can heal, and can tank, and can DD, but can't do any of them as well as the jobs that already exist, then no one will play them, except for a few die hards. If a job comes along that can do all of those things as well as jobs that already exist, then suddenly we'll have a ton of people playing that new job to the detriment of others.

[Akashimo]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

What if you like Squall? o.O Where's he fit in to?
And what if of Freya Crescent? =x
Thf, & Rikku, yup. Tifa and Monk, yup. Yuna and Smn yup.
/sillyness
Anyways, I do believe that if any new jobs were to be made, they'd have to be done carefully. Espically with this TP burn mind set. Infact, cause of them, majority of support(freshies and cure) jobs are able to level faster. Most I've seen now don't even know how to time and keep up thier buffs/debuffs.

Adding a wider range of supports such as taking an element of a current one and making that the main focus would be good. Even an advance job requiring a previous job to be 75. Like a job +1 or relic job. E.G. White Mage ups to Cleric, with job traits on more POTENT cures and divine magic being good as any nukes, inclueding variety. Red Mage to Duelist, being more dependant on using swords and spells costing tp in the form of a gaze movement. Summoner to Evoker, in a way they can enhance an avatar's ability to act and not rely on BP timers or mp, but instead is drained of hp/mp to give the avatar a refresh/regen, with prep rate being the same as a summoners for that level.

[Feba]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

It's not SE's problem that the population is a bunch of penny-pinchers and still whipped on doing things the old way.

way to both prove my point and completely ignore it at the same time.

[Aralays]

Re: The OFFICIAL "Wings of the Goddess" @ E3 2007 Thread!

Much of what is show so far leads me to believe the story takes place well before the the great WAR. It shows Davoi around the time it was overtaken by the orcs. Garalidge Citadel when it was a fortress of the Elvaan. I seem to remember the fall of Davoi being a catalyst for the unification of the Elvaan tribes, which eventually became the Kingdom of San'doria.

I'm left with the impression that the time period we're seeing is about 100 years before the events of FFXI. The nation of Windurst is already formed and starting to master magic, the Elvaan are banding together to form San'doria. Humes I suppose still have their own tribes, the pirate factions of the Bastore sea while the Galka are still mainly out in Kuztoz and the mithra are in their homeland.

It would also be interesting to see the beginnings of Jeuno, Maat in his younger years would be a cool central character, I think. Its clear he was more than just some fisherman in his younger days, he's too well-traveled for that.

I think it cannot be more than twenty years we travel:
Davoi was in fact still a little peaceful monastery twenty years ago. The Orcs which attacked it and now live there (or their children) are the refugees of the Crystal War after the Children of Altana united and cut them off from their brethren from the northlands.
Jeuno was founded - I think - 80 years before the Crystal War and didn't rise to power until Kam'lanaut came to the city 30 years before the war, so the parts of the trailer which show the new fortifications in Sauromugue Campaign, Rolanberry Fields and Batallia Downs show something which is at most 50 years old. The only other constructed things there were zilartian structures and these fortresswalls are definitely not of zilartian origin.

And I want to note, that the three nations are way older than what you imagine:

According to the Vana'diel Tribune and to the description of the Rimilala Stripeshell, 719 C.E was the 500th anniversary of Star Sybil Rimilala discovering magic, which means, the young girl became the first Star Sybil 219 C.E.. The federation was founded 75 years later under (I believe the 4th) Star Sybil Tukuku, which makes Windurst most likely the oldest of the Three Nations.
Sadly I have no clue when the Mithra came to Windurst, although they came when the glory of Windurst and its magic was heared in the whole world, so perhaps between 400-500 B.C.

Achefageuis d'Oraguille, the 9th king of San d'Orian lived around 550 C.E., so the kingdom was founded most likely around 300-350 C.E., making her some decades younger than Windurst.

Two hundred years younger than the other two nations, Bastok got his first president "Ironman Mayer" around 494 C.E., in the when it was decleared a republic. The Galka fled from Zepwell Island 600 years ago, meaning they met with the Humes around 300 B.C., so perhaps Huma/Galka-tribes lived together for 200 years before they officially founded Bastok.

(Note: The Crystal War was from 862-863 B.C., so the game starts in 883 B.C.)

Well, what I wanted to say, I am pretty sure that the expansion features somethign from the Crystal War. I especially liked the pictures in the trailer where the areas 'blinked' to their older version (have you noticed that the tree near the Sarutabaruta outpost is in fact smaller in the past? Good work, SE!) and wondered if that may be something which is an actual part of the expansion.
That we don't travel to the past like we travel to another land but that we can at various points in the region activate some timetravelling device/magic/crystal/whatever to 'blink' for a short time in the past. There we could do various things for a certain time before we are drawn back to the present. (Mission: "find out, where thing XYZ is located and how it is used, but you have just three hours, so hurry, or <insert evil guy from WotG> will get it!").

Logic and the fear of time paradoxa dictates that just two things can happen:
a) either our actions in the past will spawn new realities like a Chrono Trigger on steroids (not very likely)
b) or our actions in the past are already part of the past (so nothing would change)
That of course means that we cannot change anything or just very little and - more important - that the evil guy has the same problem and is most likely from our timeline or the future and our action will be used to undo his changes of the past.

Although, there is one unlogical point in the past, one flaw in the history, and I wonder if that will be a part of our missions: Fenrir. It is said that the moonwolf has the power to predict the future and can read destinies. He showed Rimilala centuries of a peaceful Windurst she and her successors will achieve some day.
But twenty years ago, he told the current Star Sybil and Karaha-baruha, that Windursts destiny was to be destroyed. Like Diabolos, Fenrir is a fully awake terrestrial avatar, so if he had wanted he could have come out of the Full Moon Fountain and protected Windurst on his own, but he chose to do not and just stayed as watcher as he always was and so Windurst was destroyed ...
or not. Why didn't Fenrir see his own destiny or the destiny of Karaha-Baruha which ultimately saved Windurst? Was he not able to see his own future (Not very likely, because Carbuncles hints in 'Waking the beast' give the impression, that Fenrirs abilities also can predict the future of sleeping gods and terrestrial avatars)? Was he to ignortant to see Karaha-Baruhas destiny, working of summoning magic, or to stupid to think he would be the one summoned?
Or perhaps was it ... that the idea for summoning was not in the normal future to find and it came from some other source? Gave some timetravelling people (we?) Karaha-Baruha a little hint about 'summoning' which in the end created a future (our own present) which Fenrir was not able to predict, because then the possibility of this future didn't exist yet?
So, do you think we will be witnesses of the siege of Windurst and see Fenrir fight the Yagudo?

<edit> And the really frightening thing is, I really remember all that data ... I wish my memory was as good at university as it is here ...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The OFFICIAL &quot;Wings of the Goddess&quot; @ E3 2007 Thread!

Er... Probably a big "No" to the concept +1 jobs.

I mean, who'd invite a White Mage if the better healer, Cleric, can be had? Heck, with Duelist being a Red Mage +1 and able to contribute damage on top of regular Red Mage duties, why bother with Cleric or White Mage or Summoner at all?

Just adding "better" stuff to a job is likely to lead to broken game play; asking for +1 jobs is asking for trouble. Plus, having a +1 version around automatically makes the "NQ" job gimped in the eyes of the players. =/

* * *

Personally I think the game has enough job variety already, but if S-E thinks it can balance things, more jobs would be nice. However, I just don't know what else the company can add--do we really need more forms of buffs/debuffs which can stack on the ones we already have? If they don't stack, what would be the point of adding a new job which does the same old things?

We have a shadow tank, we have a shield/heal tank, we have a damage/defense tank (that's WAR--theoretically)--what other kinds of tanking can be added, and added without displacing the existing tanks?

Heck, do we need another DD?! Another soloing job?

About the only thing which can fit easily is another hybrid job like BLU, with varying capability based on the set up. Then again, we already have BLU...

I'm curious about what S-E can come up with, but I'm not very hopeful on new jobs. Seems at this point adding more will only make the existing jobs less distinct if modeled after the existing jobs, or allow player groups to become overly powerful if given orthogonal capabilities.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL &quot;Wings of the Goddess&quot; @ E3 2007 Thread!

way to both prove my point and completely ignore it at the same time.

You've made points? Since when?

Aside: If RDMs are really Duelists... why do they have a D in Parry?

[Auron517]

Re: The OFFICIAL &quot;Wings of the Goddess&quot; @ E3 2007 Thread!

I'm seeing Murhpie's point on the new job subject.

There needs to be more players that want to tank or heal before another job is introduced. TBH, even if Square added a versatile job that can tank, dps, and heal, people would just want to do damage and that's all.

Case and Point: Blue Mage. It's been said before by many on the forum before me, but BLU can tank, heal and dps, but what do the overwhelming majority of Blue Mages do with that potential?

They ignore it and play Blu with a "DD onry" mentality. Good luck finding one with /WHM leveled and the gear to support it; the same goes for tanking.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The OFFICIAL &quot;Wings of the Goddess&quot; @ E3 2007 Thread!

People keep acting as though BLU, COR and PUP have been completely laid bare.

They haven't.

Truth is these jobs are still being explored and pioneered to see what they can do. Some people are using the new-ness of these jobs as a license to play them exactly how they wish to play them.

COR/RNG is my favorite combo, I love it, but its not the end-all subjob now that I'm past EXP levels. I've looked over what I can potentially use otherwise and there's a lot of work to be done, so I'm not done with COR even after all the meritting. No one really even knows the returns on our pet buffs yet, its hard to measure. I'd like to find out.

I have PTed with BLUs that have tanked and also ones that have played backline as BLU/WHM. Support elements are actually where my greatest interest lies with BLU, aside from the soloist and PvP aspects. I've actually been playing BLU based on how I did RDM. Enfeeble, then damage, stun and support as needed. I was using Head Butt as soon as I could get it. Pretty clear to me why its at level 12 next to Utsusemi for NINs

Another thing is that not everyone is that vocal about thier jobs. I'm pretty outspoken about COR, BST and BRD. I'll level with you about any of the three when given the chance. I'm pretty negative about the latter two because I don't like how players treat those jobs and in both cases its about respect. People halfass BRD and they're loved for it. Its disgusting. I did most everything I could do have the best I could have back when I did play BRD, most people aren't even trying, they think its just about high chains and merit PTs. Its time for BRD to get another helping of humble pie, just my opinion.

BST I already went off about elsewhere today, so I'll just stow that. I love the freedom and ability to solo, but I hate how its treated by the community and SE. They've waited for fixes longer than RNG has.

COR I'm enthusaistic about and that will likely never change, there's still a bit left to uncover with this job. It takes more than just looking at a stat breakdown on wiki to see what the job can do, contrary to the belief of some. And I and others have already proven we can very much compete in merit pulling.

[Aralays]

Re: The OFFICIAL &quot;Wings of the Goddess&quot; @ E3 2007 Thread!

They ignore it and play Blu with a "DD onry" mentality. Good luck finding one with /WHM leveled and the gear to support it.

Meet me, if you by any change ever visit Unicorn

Well, on the new-job problem: There are just so many different party slots and things you can do in the game (physical damage, magical damage, enfeebling, blood tanking, evade tanking, enhancing/support, healer) and all of these are filled with one or two jobs already, which often are defined by being excellent at this particular duty.
Alround jobs are either - more or less - forced to play in a certain way (RDM is basically reduced to a main enhancer/enfeebler with minor healing/magic damage and almost no physical damage option "allowed" by mainstream) or decide to play in a certain way and forget their other options (the dozens and dozens of 'physical DMG'-BLU). Theoretically SMN belongs also to this category, but that is mostly because the physical damage aspect of avatars is too weak to be used despite the idea of SE in using this aspekt too.

Which means, a new job would either need to be very good at one of the points listed above but then it would step on the toes of the current top jobs in this category. A jack-of-all-trades on the other hand would either follow the lead of RDM and BLU and would be restricted to one aspect (the strongest) of its possibilities either by own choice or game mechanics.
If there is one thing we definitely do not need in the game is another physical attacker which is just different from WAR/NIN/SAM/MNK/DRG/RNG/BST in the way that it uses a different A-/A+ weapon and some semi-unique jobtraits.
Magical damage dealers are are covered by the current mage jobs, except the element of darkness which is less used than the other seven. But a whole job centered around dark nukes ... not really working.
Tanking is covered by PLD, NIN and more or less every physical damage dealer with /nin. Their are two other options in the game besides defense/shield and evasion: parry/guard and counter. Parry tanking (which would be great for SAM I think) is sadly not strong enough, because a parry rate worthwile for tanking would make the tank almost as powerful as a blinktank without the usage of shihei. And countertanking would be even more powerful is the counter rate were high enough ... so basically we have all working versions of tanking covered and there are no new ones we could make - at least I cannot think of new ones. Yes, sometimes suggestions of Geomancer with stoneskin-tanking or similar concepts appear, but that is basically just another version of blink-tanking with dmg-vs-(shield-HP) instead of a hit-vs-(shadow-number).
The problem with the healing slot is, there are just two ways to heal someone (cure and regen) and with Cure, Curaga, Wild Carrot, Magic Fruit, Exuviation, Regen, Paeon, Healing Ruby, Spring Water and Whispering Wind these are covered over and over again. -na spells, Erase and Raise (and similar effects on other spells) are just the icing on the cake, but nothing so important that it would need a new job. WHM is one of the most perfect jobs in regards to its main duty imo and every caster subbing /whm (and even BRD subbing it) can be also great healers.

What I left out up to this point are enfeeblers and enhancers. Yes, we have of both many jobs: RDM, NIN, BLU, BLM, WHM, DRK, SMN can all more or less good enfeeble while RDM, WHM, BRD, COR, SMN are good enhancers.
But the point here is, that it is easier for SE to make new enfeeblings or enhancings than to invent the 10835078538075439th method of swinging a sword or casting fire-dmg on a mob.
They could make a 'confuse shield'-spell which basically lets to mob hit himself instead of the tank (by granting the tank a short-time but powerful counter-effect), a 'suicide strike'-spell which lowers the mob's HP while increasing its dmg-output (basically giving the mob souleater for one or two attacks) or dozens of other effects.
SE could introduce new enhancers and/or enfeebler, possible with some other minor options thrown in (like the enhancer/DD-hybrid that is COR), perhaps even something strange like an enahncer/nuker or an enspell-enfeebler or whatever. The important part is, here is the chance for SE to make new effects which are not just copies or variations of other effects and to make a new way of jobmechanics. The luck-part and the double-up of COR (instead of using songs or MP or items) was mechanical-wise the best idea SE had for the last three jobs.
I once made a very finished concept for a Chemist-job, which was built in that way (partly using new effects, new mechanics how the job works, main duty enfeebling and enhancing) and I think it would be a great addition to FFXI.

Another point is of course how player see the job. I think COR mostly is played because of the "OMG, we are teh piratz!"-effect and many DD-jobs are just played because of the "BET you cannot get that hate of me after my l33t dmg"-effect. Playing a supporter or a healer has to be an interesting experience and while COR has at least the funny randomness to its rolls and BRDs are busy to run around, the 'hit macro, restore HP'-work you do as WHM or the 'yes you get your refresh, go in the cycle'-work as RDM are - as much as I enjoy playing these two job - just mind-numbing boring.
A job has to be 'cool' and 'l33t' to be played. In fact I bet, if suddenly necromancer pops up as job ... say, by replacing WHMs white special effects with black ones and renaming things like "Holy" to "Touch of the underworld" or by replacing Matons with skeleton-models and attachments with soulcages or whatever, but in both cases keeping the actual work exactly the same ... dozens of people would just play it because it is evil and dark and mysterious and whatever >.>