Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

[Legal Fish]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

The entire basis of argument against the changes seem to be.

1) It removes the aspect of "Challenge" from certain CoP missions.
2) More "noobs" will enter Sea
3) Possibly flooding of RMT.

Interesting! None of those are points in my argument.

If SE continues this trend of making things easy then WotG won't be nearly as epic as CoP was. It'll be another ToAU it seems.

[Hyrist]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

Interesting! None of those are points in my argument.

If SE continues this trend of making things easy then WotG won't be nearly as epic as CoP was. It'll be another ToAU it seems.

Honestly BRP, this was a reply to a Allah post. I haven't even read your argument, and will mostlikley not.

No offense but I find you are more likely to make dead-end or circular arguments just for the amusement of getting a rise out of someone, then actually having a constructive conversation. At least as far as these forums go.

It's best for me to just avoid such circumstances to prevent me from reverting to my old, more temperamental self.

As far as the "Trend" goes. I don't know. While mission wise ToAU is very very easy, I believe they made this expansion specifically to provide entertaining endgame content, with an easily accessible storyline. That was my take on it from the beginning, and so far, I've not been disappointed.

However, I would suspect the approach of WoG to be more difficult, simply because of the "Wartime" theme to it. This idea of "Slippery Slope" of SE's easing up the game may or may not be valid. However, I am more concerned with wither or not I enjoy the game rather than if I'm always frustrated by challenge after challenge.

I think CoP did a lot to hurt the expectations of this game. Since ToAU many good changes have been made, and only a select few people have been really dissatisfied, namely, the Hardcore players.

However SE did warn us that ToAU was built for the casual player.

[711rocks]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

I don't think that the CoP level caps make it hard, but they do help make it annoying to set up. You can ask your ls for help with a mission, but if they have to buy gear for it, it turns them off to the idea.

[Neomage]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

As dissapointed as I am with this, part of me is happy because I may finally be able to get sea now that there is an EXP reward for CoP fights. I wanted to finish CoP the hard way, but I could never find any help...

Oh wait this won't change anythign at all. I'm on the mission BEFORE Tenzen... no EXP reward for those fights >.> say hello to another 3 years of shouting in whitegate without a single offer.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

No offense but I find you are more likely to make dead-end or circular arguments just for the amusement of getting a rise out of someone, then actually having a constructive conversation. At least as far as these forums go.

Nice little tangent there, is this how a constructive conversation looks? I'm taking notes.

However, I am more concerned with wither or not I enjoy the game rather than if I'm always frustrated by challenge after challenge.

Most frustration with CoP did not come from how hard those fights were, it came from getting people together(how much time spent getting ready and actually reaching the BC). For example: compare the frustration from losing an assault to losing a CoP fight. After you lose the Assault, you go back to Whitegate and get another ID and try again. After spending an hour or two getting to the BC(assuming this is a pick-up) losing a fight where you spent your resources could be enough for someone to be a bitch and just homepoint or something.

SE did nothing to make the bad parts of CoP better. There is no Promy-dem/mea/holla elevator that you can earn from clearing the floors like vhazl. Rivene is always a pain to get through with unstable portals. Luckily this isn't a problem post 50-cap... oh wait! two of the ones they are nerfing are post-60 cap. At least they seem only to be making those more accessible to groups that have too much support... but it's not like you couldn't just farm extra salts for Snoll.

Those fights were easy. I've done every single one at least twice, and some over five times, helping people out. I've done them with so many different set ups that I practically know them all like the back of my hand. Anyone who says "You cant do this with a PLD" is full of it. Maybe that PLD will need to buy some extra meds or maybe a set of evasion gear, but I don't see how that differs from a NIN buying extra utsusemi. Once you factor in "zombie tactics", most BCs are quite easy to clear. Again: If gil sellers can do it on practically every server, then so can you.


And...

Honestly BRP, this was a reply to a Allah post. I haven't even read your argument, and will mostlikley not.

So the major 3 arguments against this really have no real grounds to stand on.

I will go as far to presume that the majority of those who are really complaining about this are the one's that have suffered a blow to their pride, with which there is no real absolution. In the end no one really cares how big your e-peen is, as long as it's not bigger than their own.

When you say a whole side of a debate has no ground to stand on, that is a challenge. Surprise, surprise. Also, I threw in that little "DIE ELITIST DIE" bit because apparently you are as aggressive as I'd ever be.

[Vyuru]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

Well for myself personally, I am a little disappointed by this because when I first started FFXI, I was under the impression that this game would not be handing things freely to you, you'd have to work to get where you wanted, and I was happy with that.

I've been rather happy with the difficulty level of most of the game's content. When CoP came out, it was announced (at least I thought it was) that this would be a harder expansion, much like ToAU was to be an easier expansion.

I haven't gotten far into CoP yet, however I have been very happy with the difficulty level of it so far, the hardest thing for me has honestly been getting a reliable group to do this with, the fights are cakewalks if you have one.

The changes for the rare/ex items I'm happy with, you put in more work for them and you get the reward for making the fights easier, seems appropriate to me.

No exp loss in the battlefields when doing a mission? I've been thinking for awhile that this should be the case for all mission BCNM/special fights just to avoid some of the strict party setups some of these fights have.

Making the fights easier I'm not so happy about, although it depends on how they do it. If it's just a time extension, to me that's not really making the fight easier since the mob is just as strong, you only have more time, that I'm okay with.

But if SE really nerfs the boss fights, I am going to be rather disappointed. Regardless of when I get to the later fights, I want to feel I earned this mission and not that I was handed the mission completion on a silver platter.

From the screenshots I've seen of Sea, that region looks totally awesome, so that and the CoP rings are more than reward enough for me to complete the missions.

[MisterCookie]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

I think CoP did a lot to hurt the expectations of this game. Since ToAU many good changes have been made, and only a select few people have been really dissatisfied, namely, the Hardcore players.

I have to say, I think CoP was responsible for the massive sag in popularity the game experienced at the time, coupled with the release of WoW. I remember being psyched up to explore Tavnazia, only to find in order to get there, you had to slog through 3 different massive dungeons, fight 3 different bosses(and god help you if you didn't have rngs and war/nins), and then, when you finally got to Tavnazia, there wasn't really anything to do aside from complete more ridiculous missions. While this was all well and good for the hard core players, the rest of us were disheartened. If WoW wasn't enough to pull players away from FFXI, CoP pushed them from it.

[Hyrist]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

Anyone who says "You cant do this with a PLD" is full of it.

I've gotten responces to snoll fight along the lines of "You can't beat this without a PLD." so I find the reversals of the arguments to be quite funny.

Yes, the majority of the restricters are full of it. I'm sad I no longer have the opportunity to prove them otherwise.

When you say a whole side of a debate has no ground to stand on, that is a challenge.

Yes it is. And I stand by the fact that most wont even have a concise argument to counter with. Honestly in that response I've yet to hear yours. You're arguing that the 'hard parts' of CoP haven't been changed, so what is the opposition then? Again, let's remind each other that we don't know the extent of the changes yet.

Oh, and on a side note, I don't lump you in with the elitist players, BRP. Not unless you've made a substantial attitude change over the past few years or theres something about your opinions I don't remember.

Surprise, surprise. Also, I threw in that little "DIE ELITIST DIE" bit because apparently you are as aggressive as I'd ever be.

Some sadistic part of me likes you BRP. But I like you in that "ok he's cool, but I'd never sit in at a dinner party with him." type deal. Maybe a bar... but defiantly not a dinner party.

You're by no means a member of the Majority.(Btw, thanks for posting that translation on your blog.) So sure, I'd expect you'd have some reasoning behind your thoughts. Sadly, most others don't.

Right now what I see is that people are needlessly panicking. The update seems to do no more than reward those who come back to help out, and make preparing for certain BC's a little bit easier. That's all. Heck, it might help a few stragglers make a bit of gil here and there by auctioning the de-"ex"ed items.

The majority of the CoP challenge is still there. This is just a little incentive to get people moving with it. In the end it changes nothing for me. I'm still gonna be doing CoP missions with my LS like I did before the update.

Anyways. If you wanna post your counter argument, go ahead. If not, I'll see you next time I attend Beseiged.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

The missions are easy because you COMPLAINED about the level capping in CoP

Since when is difficulty tied to level capping? The missions were piss easy with a level cap, the only thing the cap did was make it even harder to find people to help you complete a mission if they'd already passed it. The average FFXI player is unwilling to help their fellow adventurers at the best of times unless there's gil involved. Add to that a level cap and subsequent gear requirement and you're shit out of luck on most occasions.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

The difference between people against this and me is that I'm looking towards the future. I'm seeing a trend here, as SE begins to listen to players, they are beginning to listen to bad advice. If you see in many interviews with Japanese players, they say "This is too hard" without saying why. The same could be said for some NA players, but I haven't read any interviews or Q&As that had this.

If I'm "panicking" about anything, it isn't these changes, but this trend of SE making missions easy. With ToAU and going back and hitting CoP with a "Sledgehammer" as someone put it, it looks grim.

[Karinya]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

Since when is difficulty tied to level capping? The missions were piss easy with a level cap, the only thing the cap did was make it even harder to find people to help you complete a mission if they'd already passed it. The average FFXI player is unwilling to help their fellow adventurers at the best of times unless there's gil involved. Add to that a level cap and subsequent gear requirement and you're shit out of luck on most occasions.

If you describe CoP missions as "piss easy", I wonder what's left in your dictionary for Zilart and Aht Urhgan missions?

No, no mission boss is Dynamis Lord or The Wyrmking Descends or Absolute Virtue (let alone the *really* ridiculous uberbosses found in some SP RPGs). Some CoP missions *are* harder than any other mission storyline currently in the game, though. Some of those aren't mentioned among the ones being "adjusted", either.

Might I suggest that you stop relying on the average FFXI player? If you really don't have any friends and your linkshell consists solely of selfish scumbags that, when you say "Who can help me do Mission X next Saturday?" all tell you to go to hell, then I think you have bigger problems than whether or not that mission is level capped. Make some friends you can rely on and join a linkshell that actually helps its members get things done. And then organize the event. Even in the best linkshells, linkshell events don't organize themselves.

Multiplayer games often require the cooperation of multiple players to get things done. If nobody will cooperate with you, maybe you should find a single-player game. I have no social skills (as I am demonstrating in this post) and even I can do better than that.

[Moaku Hyena]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

Might I suggest that you stop relying on the average FFXI player? If you really don't have any friends and your linkshell consists solely of selfish scumbags that, when you say "Who can help me do Mission X next Saturday?" all tell you to go to hell, then I think you have bigger problems than whether or not that mission is level capped. Make some friends you can rely on and join a linkshell that actually helps its members get things done. And then organize the event. Even in the best linkshells, linkshell events don't organize themselves.

Unfortunately, I have encountered that bit a lot to the point where I'm still on CoP 4-2. This update won't make things "easier", but makes things more accessible to me.

Think about it. If you wanted to get sea and you have people telling you "no thanks" because it's too hard or too pricey, AND you barely have anyone willing to help you even after shouting for god knows how long in Jeuno and Whitegate, then you too may be excited about this because of the greater incentive that this brings instead of having to actually pay people incredible amounts of Gil to even consider getting help.

So this is a wonderful thing here, a blessing in disguise nerfed battles or not.

[Omni]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

Sky being an area and CoPs being missions aren't the point here, so I fail to see why you're trying to make the distinction. You objected to the missions being made easier. I pointed out something else that was made easier and, yet, thats OK?
You want sea to feel exclusive, yet its fine that kitty pants and osodes are now much easier to get and more common than ever? Its going to be that way for Homam sets and Faith Torques eventually.
Thief's Knife is now worthless and people now tell the owners that it was an overpriced luxury item and to quit whining. Well, exclusivity is a luxury, too. There are more exansions in the future, CoP can't be the central endgame experience forever, gotta make room for ToA endgame and Wings of the Goddess, man.
Well you're being defensive enough to make personal attacks, so this must really be important to you.
I speak only from experience on Titan, it might not be chronically commonplace, but its common enough to be disgusted when you notice it. A lot of people want to believe the players who have helped them be successful in endgame are nice, honest people, I'm not that naive.

I dont want sea to feel exclusive. When did I ever say that? I love how you like assuming what other people say. Please keep your words of out of my mouth. Thanks.

Defensive? No, actually I just think it's pretty funny coming from you. When you complained about such and such job not being 'complete' enough or not being as unique so to speak. I just find it comical coming from you thats all. Like you said, you're objectively challenged.

[Hyrist]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

The difference between people against this and me is that I'm looking towards the future. I'm seeing a trend here, as SE begins to listen to players, they are beginning to listen to bad advice. If you see in many interviews with Japanese players, they say "This is too hard" without saying why. The same could be said for some NA players, but I haven't read any interviews or Q&As that had this.
If I'm "panicking" about anything, it isn't these changes, but this trend of SE making missions easy. With ToAU and going back and hitting CoP with a "Sledgehammer" as someone put it, it looks grim.

Ok... yeah. This is what we call a "Slippery Slope" argument. It's typically misused to construe fear among people, which is why I believe people are having a panic attack.

For me I believe this is a balance issue. Rather than WoG being easy, WoG is going to be hard content; so hard that SE believes they should lighten up the older content (CoP) so that the newer and more casual players can get through it and be able to focus on this hard content.

That's my take on the future.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Chains of Promathia Battlefield Adjustments (05/18/2007)

Defensive? No, actually I just think it's pretty funny coming from you. When you complained about such and such job not being 'complete' enough or not being as unique so to speak. I just find it comical coming from you thats all. Like you said, you're objectively challenged.

Whose stuffing words in who's mouth now?

I don't believe I've said any job feels incomplete with the exception of Group 2 merits, which took a rather long to come out for what they've turned out to been. If you're looking for people complaining about their job not being complete, direct your attention to who's really been saying it.

Wasn't me. I think I've said that RDM needs to lose Tier IV white magic so they're not dicked into being a main healer. I think I've said that having tier IV white magic and tier III black magic is not a good balance for RDM by series standards. I believe I've also said that BRD is overpowered even when they don't use a proper instrument for a song.

Oh and I believe I've also said COR doesnt feel complete in gear - I've never stated otherwise about the job save for, again, the year-long lack of Group 2 merits. Gear is an issue that's steadily addressed and more will come in time regardless of what my feelings may be or what I would like to see. I've always said that COR felt the most complete of the ToA jobs, I didn't think the Light and Dark Shot changes were needed, but SE thought differently. In light of that change, I do feel Fire and Thunder Shot are rather lacking, which I've also stated.

Now, you can keep being wrong, you can keep up these lame personal attacks, but it doesn't strengthen your argument in the slightest. You're typically a better poster this and generally a very informative poster, but you would not be this defensive about the forthcoming update if it did not hold any meaning to you.

The change is coming. Deal with it and move the hell on.