June Version Update (04/27/2007)

[Mhurron]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

I have always been somewhat bothered by the fact RDM only gets Tier III Nukes, but Tier IV White Magic.

BLM max tier is Tier IV
WHM max tier is Tier V

RDM gets one less then the specialists in those areas. What is there to bother about?

I love how any discussion about RDM getting a few new toys can not be had without people saying if they get anything they should have 4 of X taken away.

[Karinya]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

I have always been somewhat bothered by the fact RDM only gets Tier III Nukes, but Tier IV White Magic. If you can get a RDM/WHM, you don't really need a WHM and that's pretty damaging to WHM, as few as there are.

Only if the monsters you're fighting are extremely weak. Otherwise you will quickly come to appreciate the benefits of Cure V, Regen III, Regen merits and JSE, Curaga III and IV, and for some mobs Stona and Divine Veil. (And the fact that the WHM isn't in the middle of casting a Refresh at the moment you get silenced, paralyzed or petrified.) Therefore, like so many other things, the relative rewards of fighting weak vs. strong monsters should be fixed first, and then see if any direct adjustment is necessary. I promise you, nobody who fights Kindred Warriors is going to regret bringing a WHM+RDM instead of just RDM and another melee.

[hongman]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

WHM has FAR better tools to heal (obviously) than RDM.

When I main heal the amount of times I wish I had Regen III (hell, even II) Cure V and Divne Veil is unreal.

RDM can main heal, I just dont think we are really all that geared for it. Seriously.

[Amele]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

Only if the monsters you're fighting are extremely weak. Otherwise you will quickly come to appreciate the benefits of Cure V, Regen III, Regen merits and JSE, Curaga III and IV, and for some mobs Stona and Divine Veil. (And the fact that the WHM isn't in the middle of casting a Refresh at the moment you get silenced, paralyzed or petrified.) Therefore, like so many other things, the relative rewards of fighting weak vs. strong monsters should be fixed first, and then see if any direct adjustment is necessary. I promise you, nobody who fights Kindred Warriors is going to regret bringing a WHM+RDM instead of just RDM and another melee.

if by extremely weak you mean killable by a party, then, yes.

Curaga III and IV are way overkill for a party situation (in fact, they could probably get you killed - either by the mob, or your refresher for wasting all that mp!)

the real issue with whitemage is simply that whitemage is too good at healing to be necessary for anything that doesn't require an alliance (don't believe me? whitemages can and will maintain a full alliance of players as the only healer in the group. the other healing role jobs will suffer under these circumstances - if the ability to heal 5 is all you need, then having a job capable of healing 17 is somewhat overkill)

this has been largely made up by merits (a regen spec'd whitemage is the most efficient party healer in the game) and by gear allowing a whm to largely fill the role of a rdm in a bard party (with the bard doing refresh and dispel, the two tools whitemage won't really have). although, this is largely just passable (the number of times I have to cast paralyze to get a stick sometimes is unreal).

this is basically the rdm role replacement in reverse. a rdm is *too good* at enfeebling to be necessary vs. anything someone would hunt for exp, but can fill the healing role as well, largely through gear (light staff, etc.) although as many have stated, this only gets you to 'passable'

If anything, SE should make rdm's healing and nuking a little worse, as they should do with whm's enhancing and blm's enfeebling.

you realize, that weakening whitemage enhancing would effectively kill the job post level.. oh. about 72?

and blackmage hardly needs weakened in the day of melee burn kirins and summoner burn wyrms, etc.

[Karinya]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

if by extremely weak you mean killable by a party, then, yes.

No, I don't. There's a very large gap between what monsters are currently commonly hunted by exp parties, and what monsters are killable by a party. Remember the old Uleguerand or Lufaise parties? Do you want to try going there with only a RDM/WHM? I sure as hell don't (and not just because of petrifying breath and L5P, although those are scary too). Most people don't fight difficult mobs in exp anymore, not because they can't, but because it isn't profitable enough compared to fighting extremely weak ones.

Curaga III and IV are way overkill for a party situation (in fact, they could probably get you killed - either by the mob, or your refresher for wasting all that mp!)

They are very situational, I admit. But that's hardly true of Cure V and the higher level regens - to say nothing of full strength protectra and shellra, while the rdm has to use half-leveled versions or spend a ton of MP and cause downtime for at least 1-2 of every 30 minutes.

the real issue with whitemage is simply that whitemage is too good at healing to be necessary for anything that doesn't require an alliance (don't believe me? whitemages can and will maintain a full alliance of players as the only healer in the group. the other healing role jobs will suffer under these circumstances - if the ability to heal 5 is all you need, then having a job capable of healing 17 is somewhat overkill)

I don't know what you're considering "requiring an alliance" - I'm certainly not about to go into Limbus or a KS99 with only one WHM, thank you very much (let alone Storms of Fate or Divine Might!). Lesser gods, maybe (although several other jobs will be contributing some healing, it's not going to be JUST the WHM).

[Omniblast]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

<tnl>
(Yes, please.)

Oh while we're buffing up rdm, I'd like to suggest
Quicken
Stop
Quarter
Demi

that is all.

And no I'm not serious about those spells, well maybe Quarter and Demi would be pretty nice. How would stop work? "Enemy cannot take any action for a certain amount of time." How would quicken work? "Target player takes two additional moves for the duration of the spell." So like 1 holy would be cast twice for the same 100 mp? XD

Quarter and Demi are obvious, "Target's hp is reduced 1/4th, "Target's hp is reduced 1/2." Ha ya right!. That'd be too abused.

but...
<tnl> YES PLEASE!!!!!

[Mhurron]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

How would stop work?

Like Stun I'd assume

How would quicken work?

Double Attack?

Quarter and Demi are obvious, "Target's hp is reduced 1/4th, "Target's hp is reduced 1/2." Ha ya right!. That'd be too abused.
but...

Make Demi be 1/4 HP (or maybe just 1/8), the chances of it working so low, the resist rate high, the MP cost high and recast long and it couldn't be that abused. A lot of NM/HNM would probably be straight out resistant to it.

[Akashimo]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

So like 1 holy would be cast twice for the same 100 mp? XD

Sounds more like Double from FFVIII to me

[Amele]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

No, I don't. There's a very large gap between what monsters are currently commonly hunted by exp parties, and what monsters are killable by a party. Remember the old Uleguerand or Lufaise parties? Do you want to try going there with only a RDM/WHM? I sure as hell don't (and not just because of petrifying breath and L5P, although those are scary too).

I wasn't actually talking about exp parties. (specifically because there is such a large gap). I meant anything killable by approximately 6 people. exp is kind of different, but that aside, I used nothing unique to whitemage while exp'ing in lufaise beyond divine veil, which would be unnecessary if the pt avoided rams entirely (not ideal but possible - I hate the camp so I avoid it when I can, it's only good with lots of piercing damage and that's better applied in caedarva anyway). and quoting the two camps that *most* require a whitemage because of specific abilities (bleat, etc) proves the rule by illustrating the exception.

They are very situational, I admit. But that's hardly true of Cure V and the higher level regens - to say nothing of full strength protectra and shellra, while the rdm has to use half-leveled versions or spend a ton of MP and cause downtime for at least 1-2 of every 30 minutes.

Cure V is overkill for 80% of the attacks in the game, whitemages only lean on it as much as they do (often over-curing) because it's more efficient hate-wise, not hp/mp wise. this can easily be solved with merits/gear, both on rdm and whm - and, yes, as I stated before, regens are the big exception for party curing situations where whm is in the 'sweet spot' on efficiency and utility.

there's a limited number of situations in which you need full strength pro/shell on all party members, and at least until whm gets af2 pants or merits barspell, the next most relevant party buff is actually stronger cast by redmage.

in merit, you basically don't need shell at all. and protect only on the 'tank' and whichever other melee is parsing the highest. (and perhaps the bard, who can take care of themselves).

vs. an nm: it will rarely take more than 30 minutes if it's a party kill - and even if it's not, you can cycle shell III and IV (or shellra II and IV the main tank) for limited downtime (remembering that rdm enjoys convert and refresh over a whitemage in this same 'solo healer' situation.)

I don't know what you're considering "requiring an alliance" - I'm certainly not about to go into Limbus or a KS99 with only one WHM, thank you very much (let alone Storms of Fate or Divine Might!). Lesser gods, maybe (although several other jobs will be contributing some healing, it's not going to be JUST the WHM).

I mean just what I said.

limbus? yeah. I've done it with one whitemage. (and not just augmented mobs either) we haven't done proto-omega/ultima with a single whitemage yet but I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that someone had.

dynamis? I've done it with two whitemages in entire the entire zone (less than one per alliance). cleared DL with one per alliance (two total) with multiple kclub darks so pretty much as totally balls-to-the-wall on healing as two alliances could be for a two minute fight. I've been the only whitemage in the alliance for all the other classic cities/outlands zones, clearing and farming.
I've been the only whitemage in DM once too. (granted, it wasn't a very orthodox alliance).

a list of (h)nm's the length of my arm (although only a few of these really require 'full' alliances)

I haven't done storms of fate yet or any of the Ks99's (I would have trouble believing that wyrm is harder than fafnir or nidhogg though), but every great wyrm kill I've had was with only 2 whitemages (the only direct healers - there are also two bards and two redmages, but the redmages are usually quite busy applying and reapplying various debuffs, dispels, raises, etc.) in the killing alliance. (you obviously bring more for the adds party and to sub in when a whitemage does something dumb like stand in the breath line.) - this is one of the few cases where I wouldn't want to bring just one. the other is, in fact, lesser gods. (actually one of the harder events to solo whm - because of how much paralyze spam some of them like to do!) Kirin might perhaps be the other big exception, although I again wouldn't be surprised to hear that it's been done.

[Akashimo]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

New idea, just add a new ws the imps would use 90% of the time, Riping alarm, which makes 4 kindreds spawn and /assist it and doesn't despawn when the imp dies nor can it be stuned >:O Problem solved, more people stop using mire and explore alternatives.

[Necropolis]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

New idea, just add a new ws the imps would use 90% of the time, Riping alarm, which makes 4 kindreds spawn and /assist it and doesn't despawn when the imp dies nor can it be stuned >:O Problem solved, more people stop using mire and explore alternatives.

I'd like that, easier to get chains if it pops the next 4 for me.

[Sevv]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

New idea, just add a new ws the imps would use 90% of the time, Riping alarm, which makes 4 kindreds spawn and /assist it and doesn't despawn when the imp dies nor can it be stuned >:O Problem solved, more people stop using mire and explore alternatives.

woot chain booster! =P.

(Not directed at akashimo)

Concerning the whole "OMG help me I don’t like TP burn" issue. There is no one forcing any one to TP burn, as well as no one forced anyone to Manaburn, Mnks use to burn in KRT. As stated before they did add wivres in the game easy enough to go and make a standard party and go kill them without anyone bothering you. Just because people don't agree with melee who in general need more merits to adjust their effectiveness in endgame, unlike mages who generally get accepted with horrid gear/merits. People really don’t need to fix what they don’t agree with.

[Akashimo]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

I'd like that, easier to get chains if it pops the next 4 for me.

>_> Forgot to add, high resist sleep/lullaby >_>;;

[Karinya]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

Concerning the whole "OMG help me I don’t like TP burn" issue. There is no one forcing any one to TP burn, as well as no one forced anyone to Manaburn, Mnks use to burn in KRT. As stated before they did add wivres in the game easy enough to go and make a standard party and go kill them without anyone bothering you. Just because people don't agree with melee who in general need more merits to adjust their effectiveness in endgame, unlike mages who generally get accepted with horrid gear/merits. People really don’t need to fix what they don’t agree with.

You're ignoring a very important point: you can't make a party unless other people are willing to join it. Good luck getting five other people to agree to join your party that will make 8k/hr, instead of waiting to join a 15k/hr TPburn. SE can't directly control player behavior, but when they throw that kind of incentive in front of people, you can expect the vast majority to take it if they can.

If the exp rates possible were balanced between different types of parties, I'd completely agree. But they aren't, and that *rewards* people for scorning all non-TPburn setups, which eventually forces everyone to TPburn or not party at all (because nobody else will join them).

That's what needs fixing. TPburns shouldn't be impossible - they should be about as good as other party setups. Maybe not quite *exactly* as good, because after all, they don't require as much risk or skill, and I think skill should have some reward. But the difference should be small, like 5-10%, not the current 100-200%, so that a good exp rate is possible with either, and an invite in the hand is worth two that you might get in an hour. And every job can find a place in a traditional party, because they're what the game was designed for.

[Sevv]

Re: June Version Update (04/27/2007)

You're ignoring a very important point: you can't make a party unless other people are willing to join it. Good luck getting five other people to agree to join your party that will make 8k/hr, instead of waiting to join a 15k/hr TPburn. SE can't directly control player behavior, but when they throw that kind of incentive in front of people, you can expect the vast majority to take it if they can.
If the exp rates possible were balanced between different types of parties, I'd completely agree. But they aren't, and that *rewards* people for scorning all non-TPburn setups, which eventually forces everyone to TPburn or not party at all (because nobody else will join them).
That's what needs fixing. TPburns shouldn't be impossible - they should be about as good as other party setups. Maybe not quite *exactly* as good, because after all, they don't require as much risk or skill, and I think skill should have some reward. But the difference should be small, like 5-10%, not the current 100-200%, so that a good exp rate is possible with either, and an invite in the hand is worth two that you might get in an hour. And every job can find a place in a traditional party, because they're what the game was designed for.

I guess your server must be a lot different then Ifrit. I have noticed while their may be a lot of TP burns on Ifrit their is still a great deal of "Standard" parties (Not too many with a blm, due to they usually manaburn). There really is few people on Ifrit who have to tp burn or wont party. Most people realize exp is greater then no exp, of course we have our asses who must have the party exactly one way or no good.