Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

Please point out where in my quote does it state that??

Hmm. I asked why would BST need improvements in party situations, and you pointed out people ignore pet damage in a following post. Was that not a response to my statement?

Anyway, I still do not see a need to boost BST in party situation--it's a fine DD.

An how is Bst powerful, Because we can solo mobs most players cant even begin to imagine. This to you is overpower?

I wouldn't say BST is overpowering--it's just unique in a good way when it comes to small party and solo play.

While I sympathize with BST's trouble with some of the past updates, I know people have leveled to 75 post update ("BST style"--not 6/6party style), and have friends who are actively leveling BST currently.

BST is still a fun and capable job, played by a small number of people--just like it was before the updates/"nerfs".

Perhaps that is why S-E doesn't consider it a priority? Not many people are negatively impacted, and the majority of those interested in the job have ably adapted to the changes.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

I think the vets who stand behind BST needing upgrading are mostly thinking about in terms of end-game usefulness.

As far as job adjustments which have already occurred...
- Giving a job merit options doesn't help if that job already has trouble reaching level 75 and/or getting merit party slots.
- It was pointed out that BLMs get AM2 as a merit option, which they can use for MBing. But I was under the impression that SCing is a rarity in higher level parties in general, let alone merit parties. How useful is AM2 in other end-game activities? Still, hardly helpful to BLMs if they can't get to 75 or get merit invites.

[little ninja]

Re: Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

Hmm. I asked why would BST need improvements in party situations, and you pointed out people ignore pet damage in a following post. Was that not a response to my statement?.

Actually i was agreeing with what Akashimo had to say about how players look at Bst in all party play from exp to merit, to endgame activities.

I wouldn't say BST is overpowering--it's just unique in a good way when it comes to small party and solo play.
While I sympathize with BST's trouble with some of the past updates, I know people have leveled to 75 post update ("BST style"--not 6/6party style), and have friends who are actively leveling BST currently.
BST is still a fun and capable job, played by a small number of people--just like it was before the updates/"nerfs".
Perhaps that is why S-E doesn't consider it a priority? Not many people are negatively impacted, and the majority of those interested in the job have ably adapted to the changes.

But you did state it was overpowered. is that from an onlookers perspective, or as a player whos been in the trenchs? An actually before i stopped playing i took a taru Bst to 45. An i can say the patch made the lvling not only boring, but alot more frustrating. Yeah i was always frustrated when i died. But i was more frustrated when a camp of Em turned into a camp of T that i could not depop to convert. getting to a camp an turning 1-2 pets to EM an slaughtering everything was our bread an butter. Now its basically go to a camp an use whatever pops. an hope you can live when u go to put it into its pop radius.

Like i stated, I always loved the idea of the Bst job. Something about going out into a world where groups fail, To rely only on yourself, To me those 75 lvls was what it was all about for me. I adapted, not only cause of that, But because i gave S.E the bennifet of the doubt that they would bring something worthwhile to the table for Bst. An im not the only one who feels that way, Alot of my former Bst chell mates say the say thing..

Meanwhile i guess i will sit there an wait an watch as more Pld an Sam updates become more available..

I think the vets who stand behind BST needing upgrading are mostly thinking about in terms of end-game usefulness.
As far as job adjustments which have already occurred...
- Giving a job merit options doesn't help if that job already has trouble reaching level 75 and/or getting merit party slots.
- It was pointed out that BLMs get AM2 as a merit option, which they can use for MBing. But I was under the impression that SCing is a rarity in higher level parties in general, let alone merit parties. How useful is AM2 in other end-game activities? Still, hardly helpful to BLMs if they can't get to 75 or get merit invites.

Alot of the merits are worthless if you ask me, Nin didnt have anything good really. Bst only has a couple, So all Bst merits are exactly the same.

As for Blm its sad, LAter in lvls they are more hated in parties then any other job, an job/subjob combo. Yet when you get to 75 an endgames activities they are crucial, An very very high in demand..

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

Hmm. I asked why would BST need improvements in party situations...

Anyway, I still do not see a need to boost BST in party situation--it's a fine DD.

We're the only "DD" that has no native melee job traits or abilities within the main job. Yes, we do have "Killer Bonuses" but that doesn't mean a lot when you're fighting demon, chimera, beastmen and undead at various levels. The most beneficial thing we could sub in regards to melee is frowned upon due its lack of being able to blink damage.

I wouldn't say BST is overpowering--it's just unique in a good way when it comes to small party and solo play.

"Unique in a good way" like those kids on the short bus? Your choice of words isn't scoring you many points here.

While I sympathize with BST's trouble with some of the past updates, I know people have leveled to 75 post update ("BST style"--not 6/6party style), and have friends who are actively leveling BST currently.

I hate this underlying attitude that just because we can solo means we should or have to solo. Yes, people have soloed to 75 before, they do it now. I've soloed 55 of 58 levels. two were parties and one as done with another BST. BSTs solo past the point most "zomgicansolo" RDMs or BLUs f'n give up on solo and just PT.

I think BSTs deserve a little credit, its very well-established we can solo - by BSTs. The community merely assumes this solo job of FFXI. There is no premire solo job in FFXI. SE themselves said it - we're not intended to be a solo job. No job was.

My RDM can solo, I've soloed VT and IT without realizing it at 60+. Does that mean I should solo though? No one expects RDM to solo, even though the can. So how is RDM solo different? They should solo because they can? I'm sure Avesta soloed to 75, so every RDM should.

Perhaps that is why S-E doesn't consider it a priority? Not many people are negatively impacted, and the majority of those interested in the job have ably adapted to the changes.

Many people were negatively impacted by the BSTs that used Leave to MPK. Many people were negatively impacted by BRDs who exploited the Mazurka hate spike to steal claim on HNMs and MPK rival HNM shells. No matter how much the job is populated or loved, if the job steps out of line, SE will strike it down.

A job's population shouldn't make it any more or less of a priority. At any given time there are more BSTs than CORs on any server. By your reasoning, my COR should still be waiting for Light/Dark Shot adjustments and card cases.

As for Blm its sad, LAter in lvls they are more hated in parties then any other job, an job/subjob combo. Yet when you get to 75 an endgames activities they are crucial, An very very high in demand..

Our community just reeks of hypocrisy right now in this regard. They act like endgame and high-level manaburn is the pot at the end of the rainbow for BLM. But it doesn't exactly make up for the twenty level spread they're totally ignored at - that level spread is trickling down below 50 now - I've seen evidence of that while soloing BST. BLMs are not uncommon in areas BSTs also camp these days.

And asking a BLM to main heal is so Valkurm Dunes. Asking a BLM to main heal just because they have MP is very insulting. Nor is it any less insulting to a BST to imply they should solo just because they can.

I love the solo aspet of BST, but when other jobs are raking in 10k an hour and I'm only getting 6k every two hours, its doesn't exactly feel as fun when I know I could be levelling faster. I make a search comment and hope people see it, but I've only seen one invite in since 33. the next one was at 53. Twenty levels of no invites, I've soloed five level since then. Makes me want to slap any DRG or THF for whining about thier lack of invtes, they don't wait that long.

At the very least, I do get to enjoy the fact I'll be richer than most players later on, all those BS and KS seals aren't pooled out to PT members, all treasure and coffer keys are mine and the pets don't argue. I rake in about 40 BS and 40 KS a week now, not to mention lots of CPs I can cash in on.

The BLMs forced to solo will be there right with us. We should mana/jugburn together and all get rich.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

But you did state it was overpowered. is that from an onlookers perspective, or as a player whos been in the trenchs?

I did not.

I stated that BST's "using the correct jug pets usually come out be some the best damage dealers in parties when the pets' damage are factored in." It means "Smart and well prepared BST's make good DD's in parties."

We're the only "DD" that has no native melee job traits or abilities within the main job. Yes, we do have "Killer Bonuses" but that doesn't mean a lot when you're fighting demon, chimera, beastmen and undead at various levels. The most beneficial thing we could sub in regards to melee is frowned upon due its lack of being able to blink damage.

BST's are good damage dealers when correctly geared and using correct jug pets. Yes, I parsed them. (I invite them when they seek, too.) Giving them melee traits/abilities isn't all that needed; it would just homogenize them with the melee DD's bunch.

"Unique in a good way" like those kids on the short bus? Your choice of words isn't scoring you many points here.

I meant those words literally. >_> You're so suspicious.

How about if I confess I keep saying to myself "I wish I have time to level my BST again" at least twice a week? The game play of BST in solo and small group is unique, in a good and enjoyable way.

Honestly, I'm no BST hater--I even /search'ed Garlaige Citidel for them AND read their search comments before taking my static party out there to exp. (The JP BST was just searching for coffer keys, and looked like other BST was probably in party with him.)

I hate this underlying attitude that just because we can solo means we should or have to solo.

I invited them (and would do so again) ... How do you think I know they are good DD's?

About 2 out of 5 are good DD's, 2 out of 5 are average, and only 1 in 5 disappoints. (NQ tiger or something at Lv.55-ish, and no DD gear. Bleh.)

If you want to complain about how BST's are not invited to party as much as they should be, that's fine. If you're pointing fingers at me (inviter of DRG's, THF's, BLM's, and, yes, BST's), however, then you have the wrong culprit. (I mean, I even tell people "BST's are good DD's!" on forums and in-game. How much more of a BST booster should I be?!)

By the way, I think BST's should solo and duo, at least part of the way to Lv.75. The challenge of solo'ing and the fun of duo'ing should not be missed. After level 23, though, I would say they definitely can pull their share of DD load in party, and isn't exactly a leech in party, either, before that.

A job's population shouldn't make it any more or less of a priority.

The number of people using a job should be considered in assigning priority. Of course, it's not the only factor. The real assessment is about the number of people impacted by any particular issue, and how severely so.

And asking a BLM to main heal is so Valkurm Dunes. Asking a BLM to main heal just because they have MP is very insulting. Nor is it any less insulting to a BST to imply they should solo just because they can.

That's situational, and you should know that already. If there's no one else seeking, why not put together two BLM's and ask them to mind the healing and nuke when MP allows? I've done it before, and the BLM's were happy to get exp and thanked me afterwards. (I explained why I needed them to cure before inviting them--it's good to set the correct expectations.)

I'm not just implying, I'm going to say straight out BST's should solo (and duo) some of the time. (See what I wrote previously on why.) They are perfectly fine in parties, too.

[little ninja]

Re: Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

Sadly IfritnoItazura there arent more like you. Not everyone seeks out Bsts to invite them or avoid them like you. Players have the mindset of only 1 or 2 jobs to maximize their time to get the most out of their exp session.. Thats why alot of jobs fail, It effects tanks, Mages, an DD jobs. An its for that reason the party aspect of FFXI is damaged...

[Hyrist]

Re: Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

The one thing I do hope to see is an increase of small number parties that INCLUDE Beasmaster.

If anything I beleive this can be a behavior adapted by BSTs to help lead and work with small-parties for the following reasons:

Partial parties (lacking tank or some 'key' element) will still be able to gather an exp flow.

BST's will be able to have the opportunity to prove themselves as an EXP asset, and also have better knowledge as to alternative camps that perhaps even they cannot even manage alone, but with a little help...

Alternative and variable play styles may be encouraged due to the nature of the party, which can improve teamwork skills of players all around and allow them to be more prepared for future challenges.

BSTs may net more experience provided the situation is good enough. Previously party-dependant classes will be able to supliment their exp in the event that 'full parties' are unavailable.

So theres a lot of benefits to go around here, provided that people are open on both sides to try a bit of experimenting. I personally would not mind partying up with a BST and some other job to see what we can accomplish together with these new bonuses.

[Lmnop]

Re: Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

interestingly enough, until you allow people to buff pets or otherwise interact with them, "pet methods" won't mesh well with "standard methods." I.e. 2 BSTs kill an NM that takes a full party of the same level. This is because they never get touched. They use their expendable pets. If you have a small party with a Bst, it's prolly all bst/smns. If you have a small party of "normal" jobs that has a bst in it, it usually becomes: (BST) "just let me take care of this." Because I just get in the BST's way. This is also why Avatars are used for Pacts in party settings. Avatar melee is like Rdm melee: indispensable for soloing, frowned up in exp. Unless it's tanking, it's not helping.

I think I'm talking in circles. Basically, small parties are great but I don't know what I'd do with a Bst in a trio situation. I suppose if a Bst didn't mind getting hit and subbed a melee job to push kill time through the roof, then they'd mesh pretty well with any job with a cure spell. Maybe bst/war or bst/nin + drg/mage. Add in a Corsair for kicks.

RunningDemon I've respected you in the past, but 2 pages back, you did an excellent job of letting your Alla roots show through. I'm level 10 and never used charm except for when I first unlocked the job (for fun - I'm allowed to have that). My point was that despite my low experience with BST, I could draw the same conclusions as a Bst 60 or Bst 75.

But you couldn't grasp that because you're a 75 BST so you're obviously much older and wiser than me. Thank you for the wisdom. Now shove it up your ass.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

COR's can buff pets, right? ^_^;

The trade off is that one or more PC buffs may have to be sacrificed--and that's a good thing. No trade off's means a broken design (*cough* WAR/NIN *cough*), IMO.

Kinda makes sense jobs can't cure pets--cures are for humanoids. (Doesn't make as much sense that BST can't Reward each other's pets...)

I wouldn't mind more interactions with pets of other jobs in party, though. However, any advantage added should be balanced by disadvantage, and advocating for not previously existing "disadvantages" will probably get me killed on any FFXI forum...