OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

[Theyaden]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

In reference to the RMT issue. You keep making a strawman about the relative size of the RMT population in each game. That is irrelevant.

RMT affects FFXI strongly because many of the best items in the game are buyable. There is high demand for them and so RMT camp the NMs that drop these items religiously. They create the only supply to something that is highly in demand. To exacerbate the problem, it is very difficult of people to make money in FFXI. You don't make decent money just farming (unless you've got TH4 and then it still can't compare) and any other methods (mining , crafting etc) are owned by RMT just as much as the NMs.

In WoW the game is designed to not make such NM items the be all end all. Due to design RMT cannot monopolize the only access to decent money in that game. Additionally, you can actually make very good money in WoW just by questing and XPing and farming Outland if you so choose. So money is a less in demand thing there.

So regardless of the RMT population in either game the design of the two games has different results. In FFXI it can cripple the economy. In WoW it's a drop in the bucket and barely has an effect on legit players.

You indicate that RMT isn't a problem for WOW, but you seem to be making some of the same excuses that you've pointed out others making for FFXI. (Nothing wrong with liking your game of choice, but it's wise to avoid assuming the best in a game you like or the worst in one that you hate) In WOW you get random wispers offering to sell you gold (whisper is wow's version of a tell for those that don't know). You have farming areas that get locked out by gold farmers. There are services available where people can turn over their character and get it back after it's been leveled. in PVP servers posting guards to kill those that go into their areas and PVE using griefing tactics to chase people away. In order to go on instances you still need gear that is good enough for a guild to let you come along.

If I am mistaken I apologise, but It seems your assesment is FFXI= steaming pile of refuse while WOW is surrounded by a holy light. I'm afraid I just don't see this. I think both games have virtues and flaws.

[Vyuru]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

If I am mistaken I apologise, but It seems your assesment is FFXI= steaming pile of refuse while WOW is surrounded by a holy light.

I'd disagree, from reading his posts, it seems that WoW's strong points are:

Harder for RMT to monopolize things
Feedback from Blizzard
Active monitoring for hacks and stuff

Those are the points Yeargdribble keeps hammering on, and it is true. Have we heard ANYTHING from Sage Sundi when he promised to keep talking? I remember the mods on this site saying that SE asked them to compile the info in the ask SE questions forum and send it to them, when asked for it, has that happened yet? Do you know if people from SE even read this board except for the occasional "hey, what do you guys think of X" thread? Which has only happened twice that I can remember ever since FFXI came out? Once was to get our ideas on chocobo raising, and I forget what the other was.

Also, it seems like Yeargdribble is comparing the two games based solely on those aspects, there is alot of good things in FFXI that he hasn't mentioned, just as I'm sure there are alot of bad things in WoW that he hasn't mentioned either.

Regardless of how easy/hard FFXI or WoW are, I think it is safe to say that RMT has a definite impact on FFXI, and it is VERY easy to monopolize things in this game.

[KamuroIshigami]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

In reference to the RMT issue. You keep making a strawman about the relative size of the RMT population in each game. That is irrelevant.

RMT affects FFXI strongly because many of the best items in the game are buyable. There is high demand for them and so RMT camp the NMs that drop these items religiously. They create the only supply to something that is highly in demand. To exacerbate the problem, it is very difficult of people to make money in FFXI. You don't make decent money just farming (unless you've got TH4 and then it still can't compare) and any other methods (mining , crafting etc) are owned by RMT just as much as the NMs.

In WoW the game is designed to not make such NM items the be all end all. Due to design RMT cannot monopolize the only access to decent money in that game. Additionally, you can actually make very good money in WoW just by questing and XPing and farming Outland if you so choose. So money is a less in demand thing there.

So regardless of the RMT population in either game the design of the two games has different results. In FFXI it can cripple the economy. In WoW it's a drop in the bucket and barely has an effect on legit players.

It seems we are not on the same page. I am actually not diminishing or disagreeing with you that RMT is a problem in FFXI. What I am trying to say is that I do not believe it is appropriate to draw parallels between FFXI and WoW when you compare the severity of the RMT issue; and that the comparison of the visibility of an issue is not a valid indicator of how big the issue actually is. THAT is what I am trying to point out; not whether an RMT problem exists or not and not whether it is a problem or not.

So, I think we are mutually making a strawman of each other's argument. I agree with you on the fact that there is a RMT problem, however I disagree that it is as big as you seem to make it.

[Altariel]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

I can't help but post to say.... YAY!!!

[Yeargdribble]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

Vyuru is summarizing the points I'm trying to get across. I understand that RMT exists and is a problem in both games. I've been the victim of gold selling whispers also.

What I am trying to say is that I do not believe it is appropriate to draw parallels between FFXI and WoW when you compare the severity of the RMT issue

This is actually why initially was wary of bringing this particular point up. The two games are very different and I don't think it's fair for me to compare things that are subjective like soloability and ease of casual play because those are suited to the taste of individuals. However, RMT is one of those messy issues that's partly based on management and partly based on game design.

I'm fairly certain there are loads of RMT in WoW just as in FFXI. The difference being that FFXI is designed in a way that is more suited to monopolization. In WoW you are very unlikely to run into an RMT situation where they are directly hampering your game play.

FFXI (due to player driven issues rather than by SEs design) is a game that pushes you to have things like a Scorpion Harness, Peacock Charm, 2xWoodsman's/Sniper's as you're leveling up and since RMT monopolize most of the money in the game you almost feel pressured to buy gil.

This is less the case in WoW where the gear matters a bit less and you can easily make money without RMT owning every money making aspect.

So, I think we are mutually making a strawman of each other's argument. I agree with you on the fact that there is a RMT problem, however I disagree that it is as big as you seem to make it.

I can concede to that for the most part, but I think if you want to mine or camp an money drop NM (O Kote anyone?) then you will see a much more direct impact on you game play.

If I am mistaken I apologise, but It seems your assesment is FFXI= steaming pile of refuse while WOW is surrounded by a holy light. I'm afraid I just don't see this. I think both games have virtues and flaws.

Nah, Blizzard also has their flaws. Wow has flaws as well. There are a good number of things in FFXI that I like better than in WoW. The reason I don't really bring them up is because they are a bit more subjective and are matters of my personal taste. I think that people who argue WoW is better solely because of soloability, PvP etc. are being a tad shortsighted. Not everyone wants to solo and not everyone wants PvP.

I will say that WoW has a solid advantage when it comes to subjective things. If there's anything that you say, "Damn I wish they had added a feature that did XXX," or, "I wish there was meter that told me YYY," you can almost definitely find an add on for such a thing to suit your taste and play style. This is something unavailable to FFXI due to their development for consoles.

In FFXI there are some that would label users of such things (TParty) as cheaters because they aren't available to everyone. However, if they were available to everyone you would think it was revolutionary. I think future MMORPGs are gonna take heed of this and I really doubt we'll see many more console MMOs that gain any widespread popularity unless it's a future SE game that lures people in with the FF title alone.




EDIT: I'd like to express my admiration for those who are discussing this in such a reasonable manner. While we may not all agree, I'm glad that I can come to DiV and have a respectful and reasonable discussion with the people here.

[KamuroIshigami]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

Have we heard ANYTHING from Sage Sundi when he promised to keep talking? I remember the mods on this site saying that SE asked them to compile the info in the ask SE questions forum and send it to them, when asked for it, has that happened yet? Do you know if people from SE even read this board except for the occasional "hey, what do you guys think of X" thread? Which has only happened twice that I can remember ever since FFXI came out? Once was to get our ideas on chocobo raising, and I forget what the other was.

I know they DO read the forums ever since the beginning and the opinions that everyone writes, I understand that while the lack of response (there are tons of posts from various sites) is rather discouraging at times. They have invited the sites to their offices and have proven and made clear to us that they do listen and read our posts and send them to the Dev Team. It was just never really as obvious as we are trying to make it now.

As a first step to further this trend to open communications more, they have provided one of the biggest requests of changes. The meeting we had was to make a setup to allow us to assist them in pointing out to you that "Yes, they are listening, they are reading your posts. Here are the responses." What I ask of the community is to give them a chance to complete the feedback loop that forms a discussion, I believe that it is time that we give them a chance and it is our turn to listen to what they have to say and not jump on the bandwagon to keep shouting at the top of our lungs that they don't listen while we don't listen to them ourselves.

I guess right now, what is getting to me is some of our poor response to SE, despite SE's guesture to attempt to communicate and to rectify issues. Instead of a "Thank you for listening and we appreciate your response" type of response to SE's attempt, some of us are giving them flak instead with "Finally they listen" or "They should of done this and that long ago". I just feel bad that some members' response is not contributing to a friendly peer-to-peer relationship; and that seems to put us on a pedestal where we shouldn't be to make this work. While I am not asking for a thank you worship, I am simply asking that the replies to this not be hostile since SE is reading what you write.

I respect all the Community Relations Teams of the various games, FFXI and WoW included, to be able to handle such responses from some members of the community. I just hope that we can continue in our efforts to correct the misconception that they don't listen while not falling into our own complaints in not listening to them. I will keep you all appraised and once the final details of the first step is worked out, I will announce it to you all what is to come.

I thank you to all those that have been patient and understanding of all the issues and have contributed to improving relations and the FFXI community; and I thank you to the remainder in understanding this request and hope that you will help us, the FFXIOnline.com Administration and Moderation Team along with the SquareEnix FFXI Community Relations Team, in furthering our overall relations and communications as to be able to serve you better in providing you an improved gaming and community experience.

Thank you.

[KamuroIshigami]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

EDIT: I'd like to express my admiration for those who are discussing this in such a reasonable manner. While we may not all agree, I'm glad that I can come to DiV and have a respectful and reasonable discussion with the people here.

I also would like to thank you for your civil discussion, it is very informative and definitely something in which I am fond of.

[Omniblast]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Announced!

This was actually mentioned in passing, any modifications of graphics, frame rates, addition of character sprites is not a limitation on the PC and not a lack of desire by SE to implement in itself. The problem lies in that the PlayStation 2 has memory limitation that prevents SE from implementing the new graphics. Until PlayStation 3 can replace PlayStation 2 in the market almost completely and that Sony ends support for the PlayStation 2, SE cannot "force" PS2 users to upgrade.

This situation is similar to Windows 98. SE could only "rightly" terminate support for Win98 only because Microsoft terminated their support for Win98.

GET RID OF PS2 NOW.

I don't understand this; does /recast not work for BP's? (I haven't played SMN.)

/recast doesn't work without the Avatar being out. You can try to use the skill but it will give you a error message. Besides, why the hell would I want to have a /recast timer for a bloodpact when all my macro slots are filled?

There's 2 options for fixing Summoner.
1) Remove all perpetuation.

2) Remove all Blood Pact cost.

3) Most ridiculous idea I heard at Fan Festival, but could be quite funny to see. Increase Summoner MP pool. I.E. 3k+ mp. This might be more feasible than the other two.

[Jei]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

Well. I think everyone agree about how obvious fish bots in Batalia dawns are recently. While S-E still announce RMT being banned at the end of month, they still are not taking immediate actions against the bots no matter how obvious they are.

When "obvious" bots like those can't be dealt with at a satisfying pace, that is why they have to announce on front page about them baning accounts. Those announcement are in placed because players had already lose faith in that matter. It should have been totally unnessecary IMO to announce such thing if they had shown more enthusiasm and actions within the game itself and not lose our faith to begin with.

That brings up a whole point about community effort and how much more Blizzard was trying to communicate with their players. Faster responses and actions taken in game against gilsellers, GM that actually show appreciation and thank he players for informing them these issues, in constrast to FFXI that GM doesn't sound please to hear us that much when we try to report RMT. I should know, I have reported RMT on both games and I must say that GM encounters in WoW was warmer, friendlier, and show much more appreciation to me than FFXI.

Both window mode and server choosing should had both been in game since window version released. Took them long enough to listen to us... or to their Japanese players and not us?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

think SE shot themselves in the foot by continuing to develop for consoles. They shouldn't have released on Xbox and should've eventually dropped PS2 support. Most people can no longer complain that they don't have a computer that can run it. I have a cheap as hell laptop that can run FFXI just fine.

It's all about money. PS2 install base (especially in Japan) is a huge source of revenue for FFXI, I bet. Xbox360 must be a nice little revenue as well--a good deal of its development work was leveraged off of the PC version, so it made sense to invest that (relatively) small amount of upfront dev cost for that revenue stream.

Note that PC and Xbox360 version share the same art assets; that's a huge cost saving measure.

Console is good money. PC's MMORPG scene is crowded, and crowded out by Warcraft. (I think their marketing bean counters would definitely tell the upper managers that they would get more return on future investment on console(s) than PC's.)

It's kinda sad S-E refuses to port FFXI to Mac and Linux, though, given those markets are probably dying to lick any bones S-E tosses their way. I can understand why, given the cost/risk vs. potential return involved, as well as the added complexity to the development management. Still, it would be nice.

I know they DO read the forums ever since the beginning and the opinions that everyone writes, I understand that while the lack of response (there are tons of posts from various sites) is rather discouraging at times. They have invited the sites to their offices and have proven and made clear to us that they do listen and read our posts and send them to the Dev Team.

There is little proof of this, from my point of view.

Show me S-E docs with "player issues" with categories, subcategories, priority rating, and dev assessment on implementation cost/difficulty/risks, then I may believe they really read and care about opinions of FFXIonline members.

Show me it's a monthly report, and is religiously updated and disseminated to proper managers, dev's, and QA's. Show me assessments on regional differences of player issues. There's a world of difference between having glanced at user forums and actually taking those posts as serious raw data for driving product live cycle.

While they may have shown you they've done some of that, I think you've actually seen a lot less than you thought you did. As far as I can tell, it's mostly just more verbal "assurances" they are on top of the issues. (Prattling from their "public face" people about "I did this, he did that--we sent e-mails" doesn't mean much.) They treated you to some neat demos just to dazzle you and make you believe their pretty words.

Mostly, though, I just find it hard to believe that their Japanese dev's and managers can really understand U.S. customers' concerns. I've seen internationalized software, and talked to customer representatives for foreign markets tearing their hair out trying to convince US devs and managers that their odd little concerns are important and worth fixing. It's rather doubtful the Japanese are any better at that.

I can buy into the idea that they are trying, but still rather cynical about how effective/efficient that effort is.

Try calling their bluff next time; ask for real data and their analysis on that data.

What I ask of the community is to give them a chance to complete the feedback loop that forms a discussion

Sure. Post those docs/charts I talked about. I'll become a believer just like that. Please prove me paranoid and wrong.

GET RID OF PS2 NOW.

This is a great example of international misunderstanding. To a lot of US players, PS2 is some annoying ancient junk holding back FFXI from becoming all it can be on PC's.

They wouldn't think of Japanese market as being different--that there could be more PS2 FFXI players than PC players. To ask S-E to "get rid of PS2 (support) now" is asking the company to toss huge amount of money away--might as well ask them to kill FFXI. After all, why keep FFXI going if not for the money?

Any wonder why requests like this are soundly ignored? Yet, many US players keep asking for this, to no avail.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

Both window mode and server choosing should had both been in game since window version released. Took them long enough to listen to us... or to their Japanese players and not us?

This is a huge part of the crux of my issue with SE. Sure they are listening now, but why did it take them so long to hear us? This is what leads me to believe that perhaps they are doing it out of some sort of early panic as they watch their numbers slowly creeping down. It feels like they are only doing it now because they must do so to survive rather than it being a sincere display of their listening to customer concerns.

Console is good money. PC's MMORPG scene is crowded, and crowded out by Warcraft. (I think their marketing bean counters would definitely tell the upper managers that they would get more return on future investment on console(s) than PC's.)

It's kinda sad S-E refuses to port FFXI to Mac and Linux, though, given those markets are probably dying to lick any bones S-E tosses their way. I can understand why, given the cost/risk vs. potential return involved, as well as the added complexity to the development management. Still, it would be nice.

While I understand there are money issues I really doubt that they are really making more money because of their niche in the console MMORPG business. I'd can't back it up, but I'd be willing to bet they would be able to keep a better following by simply developing for PC and Mac and to do it WELL without excuses about console limitations. FFXI was out before WoW was. WoW sure doesn't seem to be hurting because of the crowded MMORPG market.

However, you have to expect SE to develop for PS2 because they have historically worked with consoles and knew them best. It might've been a good move starting out, but now as the game ages and they are stuck holding the bag they've put themselves into a quandry.

What I ask of the community is to give them a chance to complete the feedback loop that forms a discussion

How long should we hold our breaths while giving them a chance. It took them years to make it windowable. It took years for them to start cracking down on RMT. They need to move faster and give some real-time response to the community the way Blizzard does if they want to stay competitive and keep subscribers happy.

They wouldn't think of Japanese market as being different--that there could be more PS2 FFXI players than PC players. To ask S-E to "get rid of PS2 (support) now" is asking the company to toss huge amount of money away--might as well ask them to kill FFXI. After all, why keep FFXI going if not for the money?

I agree. I don't think they should immediately toss PS2 support out the window, but I think they should start slowly phasing it out. They could offer a downloadable upgrade to the graphics and make it optional (I believe EQ did this once upon a time). If it exceeds the PS2 support (and it would) then PS2 users would simply not be able to take advantage. You may say it's unfair to them, but that's business. It would be a nice way for them to segue into less PS2 dependence as people slowly start migrating toward PC. Old "fatboy" PS2s have been obsolete for sometime anyway.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

While I understand there are money issues I really doubt that they are really making more money because of their niche in the console MMORPG business. I'd can't back it up, but I'd be willing to bet they would be able to keep a better following by simply developing for PC and Mac and to do it WELL without excuses about console limitations.

S-E is a rational and formidable competitor in the cutthroat video game business--it wouldn't leave money on the table if it stands a good chance of winning it. That they have not make stronger statements on ending PS2 support is the best evidence it's an indispensable revenue stream, and that risking that revenue to advance PC version of FFXI does not have a strong business case.

FFXI was out before WoW was. WoW sure doesn't seem to be hurting because of the crowded MMORPG market.

WoW had better execution, and was successfully designed and implemented with wider appeal.

I don't think they should immediately toss PS2 support out the window, but I think they should start slowly phasing it out.

I think they are quietly doing so already. They will follow their customers--if the PS2 player base disappears, so will the PS2 support.

They could offer a downloadable upgrade to the graphics and make it optional (I believe EQ did this once upon a time).

Revamping existing graphic asset or use your art department to work on new contents... I'm going to guess they rather do the second.

The way I see it, the only business case for a significant art asset portfolio expansion would be as part of major increase of user base (i.e. revenue). Seems like S-E has already decided the best way to grow the user base for its FF MMORPG business is to put all that new art in a new FF MMORPG.

[little ninja]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

Im sorry but for those who are aguing with Year it just wont work. For the simple fact everything they have said is true. 3+ years to start craking down on RMT, Botters. So many years an so many arguments ive had about how they didnt need much proof, i heard every excuse, But now S.E is doing everything i said they should an could. An instead of the players who would argue with me. Now they praise such actions..

Mpking could have been avoided by simply fixing the mobs coding. Instead of it going back an attacking the first thing that triggers its response. It could have just simply walked back. Its like they didnt even wanna take the time to fix it properly, just chop the coding, an rewrite the tailend. As for the petition, i think we had around 10k, an it wasnt just bst who signed it, it was others who knew it was a bad move, An heck we never did hear anything back, Ohh we did have the job update list, Where they admited they made a very bad Boo-Boo with Bst, Yet it wasnt even the first job they adressed.. What 6 jobs tweaked or improved since then?

As for windower they always said along with alot of the non users. OMG its so wrong, poor ps2, poor xbox. Thats how hackers hack, an cheaters cheat. 3 years later they are talking about using windower, What about the other consoles now? what about the hacking. Question is if it was such a big deal then , why isnt it a deal whatsoever now?

I find it hard ot lvl any of my jobs lately. An its really bad on this jobs that are 38+. An its really hard on those jobs 60+ Nowadays i dont see many players on, I remember it was always a constant 3k-5k a day, Now for the most part its around 1500, an peak its around 2500.

I cant help but agree. It just seems like S.E let everything slide for way to long. An now they are trying to play catch up. What made them change theirways? Other MMO's comming out? Blizzards 7mil subscribers? IT just seems like they are throwing bones praying for biters. Ok players complained about RMT for 3+ years, So they decided to ban them alot more. Same could be said for botters in that respect. Then years of players crying about not being able to alt tab, or minamize the window size to multi task, So now S.E is making a windowed mode.. Whats next more ways to get a version of haidate or osode, Or something that is just as good. I wouldnt doubt it since they did it in the earlier lvls.

Seem to me they are doing whatever they can in a mad panic to keep the faithful faithful..

[Yeargdribble]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

As I was reading the latest comments a theory just occurred to me about why SE may be playing catch up in customer service suddenly. When news was released a while back about a new SE MMORPG I remember reading a lot on BG (probably the most hardcore FFXIers) about how many of them wouldn't even think of giving the new SE MMO a chance because of the past mistakes of SE as well as they continual proof that they are incompetent.

I won't suggest that SE is reading BG for ideas (because if they were they would've fixed much more), but perhaps they realize that if they want to win customers to their new game they will need to strongly count on the potential of transfers from their old game.

SE's first foray into the MMO market was clumsy at best, but they obviously at trying to pick up on some of the things that make WoW work (Assault anyone?) By showing some amount of feedback perhaps they feel the can sway MMOers to trust them in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if this ramps up all the more as we approach their future title.

Just a theory.

[Arctic Wolf]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Announced!

Great news, finally they start to take after their friend, Blizzard. I play both Final Fantasy XI, and WoW for a couple of years. I'm still undecided, and unable to say which of the both is better. When it comes to positive experience, I had a lot of fun on either. However, comparing the "activity" of the SE and Blizzard team, I have a very negative opinion about SE. Bugs and such are being fixed much faster in WoW, and more regular. In FFXI for example, theres 2 months no news at all, and finally, there's an update, and what's changing? The ranged attack distance effect. Changes like that happen weekly in WoW. And a whole lot more. On the other hand, WoW does have more bugs and a lot more ability's per class(job), so it does need more updating logically. My point is that SE needs to get more active.

A better question would be, how many will dump the windower and use the official windower that doesn't support all those 'extensions'?

A lot probably will because of the graphical negative effects the Windower gave.

Besides the TParty extension, the ".terminate" command, I don't think I will miss anything. I do wish they would support extensions like the AddOns in WoW. But we all know that's something that's never going to happen, because of obvious reasons.