OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

[Ameroth]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

a gentleman in China

Are you in China? Didn't think so.

I've been reading this topic for the past few pages and watching the same argument come up time after time. "I'm independent and a free thinker, so I'm allowed to cheat." I 100% support rebellious actions irl when an injustice has been committed, but when you're being "rebellious" for the sole purpose of gaining the advantage on other people in (what's supposed to be) a level playing field, you are a cheater. Good for you if you don't care, but SE does and has every damn right to remove your privilege to this game.

As stated by Murphie:

I'm not sure where all this philosophical nonsense is coming from. There is no need to throw yourself upon the gears and the levers. This is just an MMO, for crying out loud. The rules are clearly stated, and you have the choice not to agree to them. However, by making that choice, you forfeit the right to play. It's really rather simple.

[aozora]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

Are you in China? Didn't think so.

I've been reading this topic for the past few pages and watching the same argument come up time after time. "I'm independent and a free thinker, so I'm allowed to cheat." I 100% support rebellious actions irl when an injustice has been committed, but when you're being "rebellious" for the sole purpose of gaining the advantage on other people in (what's supposed to be) a level playing field, you are a cheater. Good for you if you don't care, but SE does and has every damn right to remove your privilege to this game.

As stated by Murphie:

Who is being rebellious? Would you say that lawyers and free thinkers working to define this type of stuff are.. rebellious?

I guess something is labeled rebellion until it's the established method...

[Sevv]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

Oh, this is interesting. It looks like the concept of virtual property itself has been granted a US patent...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/6,119,229
Virtual property system
Abstract
A digital object ownership system is disclosed. The system includes a plurality of user terminals, where each terminal is accessible by at least one individual user. The system also includes at least one central computer system that is capable of communicating with each of the user terminals. A plurality of digital objects are provided, where each of the digital objects has a unique object identification code. Each of the digital objects are assigned to an owner. The digital objects are persistent, such that each of the digital objects is accessible by a particular user both when the user's terminal is in communication with the central computer system and also when the user's terminal is not in communication with the central computer system. The digital objects have utility in connection with communication over a network in that the object requires both the presence of the object identification code and proof of ownership.
Inventors: Martinez; Ronald (Mill Valley, CA), Schneier; Bruce (Minneapolis, MN), Guerin; Greg (Tempe, AZ)
Assignee: The Brodia Group (San Francisco, CA)
Appl. No.: 08/834,027
Filed: April 11, 1997
So, uh, what does it mean when virtual property ownership is someone else's intellectual property?

Yes I know, I said I was done dragging this on but let me simply say one thing.

There is this cool place in the Tos where in tern when you agree to play the game you actually go into a binding contract where you give up your rights of the characters/time and effort to S-E. So no matter what you say, what arguements you bring up claiming a right to the character, i have this one simple fact for you...


S-E LAW DEPARTMENT > you
seriously give it up stop dragging on this pointless arguement and find someone irl to bug.

[Ameroth]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

Who is being rebellious? Would you say that lawyers and free thinkers working to define this type of stuff are.. rebellious?

You completely failed to address the argument of my post. You are cheating if you use third party software not endorsed by SE, and no amount of free thinking, rebellion, philosophy, etc will change that.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

However, a gentleman in China several years did sue for loss of virtual property in a game, and won.

"The provider owns it all" idea is still being debated.

And I say he didn't win it, unless you can provide proof otherwise.

And the idea isn't being debated, it's clear that they own it all. Only one attempting to argue otherwise with no facts and obscure thinking is yourself to justify that whatever your doing is not cheating, and honestly at this point your looking BEYOND pathetic for even continuing this.

Even if somehow you did 'own' something in this game, like your character, you do not own the world and the other things in it since they are generated by the servers owned and paid for by SE, so even then you are in THEIR virtual territory, and only pay a monthly fee to be granted access to said virtual territory. So it's their rules, and if they say no windower + plugins and choose to ban you and me, then we'll have to deal with it.

Morals mean nothing when it comes to rules, cause people like you are the reason why. You'll just twist everything around to try and make it benefit you.

[Sevv]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

And I say he didn't win it, unless you can provide proof otherwise.
And the idea isn't being debated, it's clear that they own it all. Only one attempting to argue otherwise with no facts and obscure thinking is yourself to justify that whatever your doing is not cheating, and honestly at this point your looking BEYOND pathetic for even continuing this.
Even if somehow you did 'own' something in this game, like your character, you do not own the world and the other things in it since they are generated by the servers owned and paid for by SE, so even then you are in THEIR virtual territory, and only pay a monthly fee to be granted access to said virtual territory. So it's their rules, and if they say no windower + plugins and choose to ban you and me, then we'll have to deal with it.
Morals mean nothing when it comes to rules, cause people like you are the reason why. You'll just twist everything around to try and make it benefit you.

actually i do think that case does exist but they are also on a different set of laws, but he failed to provide the guy in china also did not play FFXI the game he plays eludes me atm (im at work) but it had no clause like FFXI DOES

[Ziero]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

There is a difference between not grasping a concept and questioning it.

What you do not seem to grasp is the fact there is *nothing* to question. You have no authority over what SE does or does not do/add/change about this or any other of their games. Your 'independent thinking', or whatever the hell you want to call your delusional concepts, holds no bearing or reasoning as there is nothing worth questioning about this system. They are everything, and we want a piece of it. They ask us to help pay the bills and follow their more then fair rules and we get what we want. They do all the work and we just play their game. It's a simple concept.

Correct, there is currently no legal recourse in the US or Japan, AFAIK.
However, a gentleman in China several years did sue for loss of virtual property in a game, and won.
"The provider owns it all" idea is still being debated.

You sure he won and it wasn't just settled? If so it would be a majorly different situation. Though regardless, SE states they own all the intellectual property within FFXI and all you can do is play with their toys. Because as far as this game is concerned, as soon as you buy/install/register/boot up the game, you give up the debate by AGREEING, completely on your own free will, to follow their guide lines. And one of their guide lines is that they own *everything*.

Edit:
Uuuuh, not exactly... the difference is that the purchaser controls the contract terms. I go to a vendor and say "I want this," they return a SOW, we agree to it, and we pay them for it. And there is lots of wiggle room...
What you are referring to is a unequal vendor/client relationship, like exists in game, where the vendor dictates the contract terms. It's bass ackwards.

The difference is, you dictate nothing. At all. There is no 'wiggle' room in this game in regards of it's contract because YOU are not that important to them. SE withholds ALL rights to change and amend their Terms of Service at any time and in any way they wish. Your only choice is to agree and follow the rules or disagree and quit. This is a one sided contract, yes, but that's how these things work. When you as a purchaser have some sort of clout beyond a mere 12 bucks a month THEN you might be able to 'negotiate' the contract, but until then you know your choices.

[aozora]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

In a landmark decision, Li Hongchen v. Beijing Arctic Ice Technology Development Co.,188 the Beijing Second Intermediate Court (famous for its intellectual property decisions) considered a complaint by a virtual world inhabitant against the holder of the online environment in a dispute over ownership of virtual property.189 The virtual property of Li Hongchen was taken by a third party when his account was hacked. The lower court determined that Beijing Arctic Ice had an obligation to restore the property to its rightful owner.19

http://www.bu.edu/law/lawreview/v85n4/Fairfield.pdf

Interesting paper. I commend the rebel at Boston University law for it.

It's also interesting to me that Communist China would take a stronger stance on what constitutes personal property than here in the states.

But, as someone noted, that game may not have had a ownership clause. I'd guess it did, however that is just a guess.

[aozora]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

The difference is, you dictate nothing. At all. There is no 'wiggle' room in this game in regards of it's contract because YOU are not that important to them.

Obviously. That is how it is. Do you agree that is how it ought to be?

And comon guys, the disallowed use of third party tools was just an example of the one sided nature (that is atypical in most real world transactions). It's not the point here, just an interesting way to gauge how this is perceived.

And it looks like, in general (at least here), it's quite accepted. Interesting.

[aozora]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

seriously give it up stop dragging on this pointless arguement and find someone irl to bug.

Oh, fine

[Sevv]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

In a landmark decision, Li Hongchen v. Beijing Arctic Ice Technology Development Co.,188 the Beijing Second Intermediate Court (famous for its intellectual property decisions) considered a complaint by a virtual world inhabitant against the holder of the online environment in a dispute over ownership of virtual property.189 The virtual property of Li Hongchen was taken by a third party when his account was hacked. The lower court determined that Beijing Arctic Ice had an obligation to restore the property to its rightful owner.19
http://www.bu.edu/law/lawreview/v85n4/Fairfield.pdf
Interesting paper. I commend the rebel at Boston University law for it.
It's also interesting to me that Communist China would take a stronger stance on what constitutes personal property than here in the states.
But, as someone noted, that game may not have had a ownership clause. I'd guess it did, however that is just a guess.

The reasoning on that case was also i believe seeing it had been braught up in Law class, was the Fact that The player had done nothing wrong at all yet a third party ( another player) had hacked into his account.

on a side not thanks for the reminder about the case but I'm sorry to have to disprove you.

Now what you are argueing with everyone, is that you have a claim to digital media, but you are doing so thru the wrong means. You are arguing you have a right to the media even if you are breaking the TOS. Basically if we looked into you are right for instance even tho im sorry to say your wrong: Rmts, Mpks, Ppl being verbal harrassed/assaulted anyone who broke the TOS would be unbannable.

BUT The case delt with that of a third party stealing his property. The player broke NO TOS rules was just robbed of his account. Now what happened was he filed a complaint but they refused to do anything to help the consumer. So he filed his case the rest is history.

Now why you bringing this case up didn't help you. If your account is stolen or hacked, S-E will pyshically seize your account back for you, they can not how ever restore all items (a few they can gil and such is something gms can not do because of the fact, they do not have power to create gil. dropped items are still actaully in the data for so may days.) SO basically you bringing this case up only shows your lack of research into the subject matter and further discredited your arguement.


for the people too lazy to read all that:

Sev Pwnt aozora

[aozora]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

Now what you are argueing with everyone, is that you have a claim to digital media, but you are doing so thru the wrong means. You are arguing you have a right to the media even if you are breaking the TOS. Basically if we looked into you are right for instance even tho im sorry to say your wrong: Rmts, Mpks, Ppl being verbal harrassed/assaulted anyone who broke the TOS would be unbannable.

Well, I took it to show that since the property was awarded back to the player, it was shown that the player owned the property - not the provider. But you're correct, that says nothing about contract status to gain access ... the community, I guess it's be? The game.

But even so, if you "owned" the virtual property, and it was ascribed real world value, could it be revoked for breach of contract (TOS) legally, following this precedent? Or, access to your property?

Hmm. Anyway, I've worn out my welcome. Again, thanks, this'll give me some stuff to mull over.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

That case has no relevance to the conversation at hand, why did you even bother to bring it up?

[Sevv]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

just let it die ne more no more calling him out he went off said he is done let it die please

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: OFFICIAL FFXI Windowed Mode Support Confirmed!

for the people too lazy to read all that:

Sev Pwnt aozora

Maybe it's just me, but you kinda lost credibility the moment you said that