World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

[Akashimo]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

Just because something is harder to get doesn't mean it worth more. Would you rather wait 2 hours to get served a burnt steak or wait 10 minutes to get served a perfect steak. Longer doesn't mean better.

That is artificial difficulty. It's time sinks instead of content. SE should add content that's worth getting and make it reasonably easy to obtain.
You don't need windower to cheat. Using windower doesn't necessarily mean you're running MrArgus, FleeTool and FFXIApp in the background so stop implying such things.
I suppose I had bad worthing in the first one. By "near death throes" I mean perhaps it's reaching that point like someone with cancer that can't be treated. They aren't gonna die soon, but things are definitely on the downhill slope and they know it.
I'd rather deal with that than deal with a cheating infested cesspool like FFXI. It's ironic that the game that has refused to use windower to keep people from cheating probably has the most trouble with cheating.

Bolded what I think are your strongest arguments for the points you're making.
While I agree longer doesn't mean better, i also dissagree. Sometimes its discouraging to get something so easy cause you'd have nothing else to aim for. Personally, I like the wait cause it means I can do more things and have something good I want to do that takes awhile. E.g BCNM/KSNM/ISNM (takes awhile to get seals/points and people to join ya,)
Stop implying indeed people. Simple like that.
I think the last bolded statement speaks for itself there.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

Actually, I do play WoW so I'm gonna call BS on you. Only if you are on a trial account (where you constantly get bumped back in the queue in favor of paying members) would you ever wait that long. Even at the worst the longest you have to wait in a queue is 5-10 minutes.

Wow, your just smelling of fanboy here. Try to log into Warsong or any of the launch servers and say that. Even my old server Greymane had queues from time to time, longest being alittle over 20 minutes. And it was normally a MEDIUM POP SERVER. My old college roommate played on Warsong and god forbid if he wasn't logged in before NA primetime on the weekends, cause the queue's are(and still are apparently) horrendous. The queue's are there, and for many on the large servers, are an issue.

[Akashimo]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

Maybe Yearg is on a Euro server. So far there is little queue time on them.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

Actually, I do play WoW so I'm gonna call BS on you. Only if you are on a trial account (where you constantly get bumped back in the queue in favor of paying members) would you ever wait that long. Even at the worst the longest you have to wait in a queue is 5-10 minutes.

It was like that during and a few months after launch, unless loads of WoW fans were lying to me, Penny-Arcade must have lied to, because they once complained about it as well. They owe no loyalty to anyone, even though they do artwork for Blizzard on occasion.

These aren't nearly as hard to fix as you suggest. Higher drop rates, change the 24 hour windows to 12 hours. I don't think most people would complain that it's too easy. If the only reason having a Ridill makes your e-cock throb is because you've spend 6 months of your life trying to get it, then you have a problem. Just because something is harder to get doesn't mean it worth more. Would you rather wait 2 hours to get served a burnt steak or wait 10 minutes to get served a perfect steak. Longer doesn't mean better.

That is artificial difficulty. It's time sinks instead of content. SE should add content that's worth getting and make it reasonably easy to obtain.

Timesink or no, artificial or not, if SE were to radically change how this was done, you'd never hear the end of it from people who worked hard to get some of that gear. There would be a section of the community that would screm how SE is dumbing down the game. I think SE is already on the right track by introducing alternative gear and alternative means.

Assault and Limbus actually see returns and that's the design SE needs to keep following if everyone is going to be able to get great gear. If Faffy just craps a Ridill each time you kill him, we'd just have even more lolWARs on our hands. I'd like to see classes remain special instead of every DD becoming a WAR just because it would be easier to get a Ridill

If drops happened every day in every corner of endgame, these elements of the game would cease to be special. Just because I toss baseballs at milkbottles at the annual fair doesn't mean I should walk away with a prize.

I'd love to see Dynamis instanced, I think every player should demand SE alter it to be instanced. But that aside, should they alter the droprate? If people are able to go twice a week just because we no longer need to work around every other LS to do it, I'd say don't change it.

If it didn't take months to obtain v2s, how would anyone else get their gear? People would just leave as soon as they finished a set.

[Murphie]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

Well, to be fair, WoW launched two years ago. The queues have lessened considerably since launch. But they do still exist, and for longer than five minutes oh high load servers.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

It was like that during and a few months after launch, unless loads of WoW fans were lying to me, Penny-Arcade must have lied to, because they once complained about it as well. They owe no loyalty to anyone, even though they do artwork for Blizzard on occasion.

Yes and it was also slightly bad right after The Burning Crusade was launched, but those are very specific times and they have passed. You made it sound as if every time you log into the game you face impossibly long queues. You also have to give in a little and realize that a comic like Penny-Arcade is prone to hyperbole for the sake of the humor.

Timesink or no, artificial or not, if SE were to radically change how this was done, you'd never hear the end of it from people who worked hard to get some of that gear. There would be a section of the community that would screm how SE is dumbing down the game.

Once upon a time I might've agreed, but if you read BG you'll notice that these, the most hardcore of endgamers, often suggest strongly that they want more frequent pops and higher drop rates from Kings. Those people are the demographic you would expect to cry the most about it, but they aren't.

I think SE is already on the right track by introducing alternative gear and alternative means.

I will agree.

Assault and Limbus actually see returns and that's the design SE needs to keep following if everyone is going to be able to get great gear.

I agree, though this is a concept that most other MMORPGs have been using for a while. Instanced (well Limbus is roughly instanced) dungeons where you get decent returns for you work and don't have to compete with outside group. Thereby basing it on your skill as a group rather than as a claimer.

If Faffy just craps a Ridill each time you kill him, we'd just have even more lolWARs on our hands. I'd like to see classes remain special instead of every DD becoming a WAR just because it would be easier to get a Ridill
If drops happened every day in every corner of endgame, these elements of the game would cease to be special.

You're never gonna stop the hordes of people that will camp incessantly for what is arguably one of the best (and most broken) items in the game. So what if it's special? The fact that it is causes a problem of everyone and their dog crowding into aery. Also, they have set an artificial cap for how good weapons can be because nothing could ever even approach a Ridill or Relic. This leaves them in a very confined space to try to make improved gear. They are at a spot where they can either raise the cap or try to keep us happy by rehashing the same tired shit for the next several years.

Just because I toss baseballs at milkbottles at the annual fair doesn't mean I should walk away with a prize.

But this is precisely what happens with the Ridill. WARs in an LS queue up to get their Ridill and just wait for months and months selling out their lives to a group until it just happens to drop. It has nothing to do with skill. They just spend enough time at it. It's like using one of those automatic tennisball server things at the fair. If you fired it non-stop at the milkbottles you'd eventually hit one and win the prize. There's no skill involved... just obsessive persistence.

I'd love to see Dynamis instanced, I think every player should demand SE alter it to be instanced. But that aside, should they alter the droprate? If people are able to go twice a week just because we no longer need to work around every other LS to do it, I'd say don't change it.

I agree that Dynamis should be instanced to end this ridiculous time struggle. I do think they should also raise the drop rates in the ice zones and ESPECIALLY in CoP zones. You get very very very little for your money (which is hard as hell to earn now) when you do a CoP zone... especially Tavnazia.

We all fear that if they made the drop rates better the game would fall apart and nobody would do Dynamis, but look at WoW. They've raised the cap and the drop rates are infinitely better on raid gear, but people still do Naxx. I do think the city drop rate is fine though. But for feck sake... I've seen TWO SMN Doublets and TWO SMN Horns in my 1.5 years of doing Beauc and Xarc. This is pathetic when you consider my LS often will have multiple TH3s and TH4s on these runs. So if you're a SMN and you're 3rd in line you roughly have to wait 2 years?

If it didn't take months to obtain v2s, how would anyone else get their gear? People would just leave as soon as they finished a set.

I'm in an LS where almost nobody needs city AF any more. It usually goes FFA 50+ to anyone who has a job on the way up. A lot of people are leveling secondary jobs. We still do these runs though for several reasons. One is for the currency drops for people that are sponsoring and working on a relic and also because people like occasionally getting currency drop by spending their points to lot 100s. A lot of people still come just because it's potentially easy money.

The top dynamis LSs usually have gotten everyone all of their relic for multiple jobs, but those LSs don't fal apart, so obviously this isn't a problem. Raising drop rates isn't gonna make everyone just quit the game when they get done.

[Akashimo]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

Dynamis's timelimit and insane cost to get an hour glass is why i held only 1 run of my own shell. And I really didn't want to go to sponsored cause its not fair to the rest of the people to go in and get next to or exactly nothing aside from loss of exp. Drop rates are horrible and any time we get major drops like its raining is for jobs that no one is lotting for or repeated relic weapons that everyone already has.... Personally Dynamis should be first on drop fixes over the camped HNMs simply put, you/dyna-ls pay money to enter it. Limbus, I still haven't progressed in CoP enough to try it so no opinion to it as of this time.

Comparing to how WoW does things isn't exactly the best way though. The fact you can just do almost anything that requires 18 or more people in FFXI with little more than solo to a full raid group, in my opinion, really takes the thrill out of it. Let us not forget, major drops in WoW are from instances, while FFXI can be from BC battles, camping HNM, gods, or forced popped gives more a diversity. If it doesn't have a high price to enter a place, you shouldn't be getting same drop rates as something thats not cheap, common and easy accessiable. The drop rates should reflect inversely how easy it is to access the source.

[Raydeus]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

Having to work 1-2 years almost every week to get one set of AF seems too expensive (time-wise) to me, specially considering you can lvl multiple jobs to 75 (and get relic weapons) which should keep you fairly entertained, not to mention all the other gear and activities in the game.

So the way I see it boredom and frustration are much more dangerous for the permanence of someone in a LS than better drop rates ever will.

I don't think it would be good if you could get full AF in 5 runs, but needing 100-200 runs to get just 5 pieces is just wrong.



Edit > Wait a sec! This was supposed to be about World selection! Holy derail, I didn't even notice.

[Ayrlie]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

don't think i'm going to add a 5th character right now

[Karinya]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

But this is precisely what happens with the Ridill. WARs in an LS queue up to get their Ridill and just wait for months and months selling out their lives to a group until it just happens to drop. It has nothing to do with skill. They just spend enough time at it. It's like using one of those automatic tennisball server things at the fair. If you fired it non-stop at the milkbottles you'd eventually hit one and win the prize. There's no skill involved... just obsessive persistence.

That's true for Fafnir because the advance of merits, gear and player techniques (and even level cap, I think) since he was added has trivialized everything about the encounter aside from getting the claim. But I don't think you can say the same about Tiamat or Cerberus, let alone Dynamis Lord or Absolute Virtue. There may be individual players who don't need much skill to fit their roles in those encounters, but *somebody* in the LS better know what they're doing or you don't gain any drops, you only lose exp. And completely unskilled players are unlikely to be tolerated for long in any group that is doing difficult encounters.

I wouldn't say no to an update that beefs up those now-easy HNMs to the point that you really have to know what you're doing to beat them, at the same time as making them possible to get without competing with 150 other people for claim. But like I said on the other thread, SE has a lot of things they're doing in the game and it's not particularly useful to point at one problem and demand that it be fixed now. If they were really ignoring the game you might have a point, but they're not; they just have priorities that are different than yours.

If you think it's so easy to fix every problem in a week, write your own damn game. Then you'll see what SE is up against (and I don't just mean the RMT).

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

Thank god we don't have messages once or twice a week that say:

"waiting in queue, your position in line is: 20344."

lolzwow

[Murphie]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

Thank god we don't have messages once or twice a week that say:

"waiting in queue, your position in line is: 20344."

lolzwow

Yeah, that doesn't happen in WoW either. No server is that busy.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

Yeah, that doesn't happen in WoW either. No server is that busy.

/joke* (forgot that part)

The longest had to wait to log into wow was about 12minutes on a Friday evening.

[BurningPanther]

Re: World Selection Made Easier! (03/02/2007)

I've just considered the ONE thing about server-jumping that I might like:

Finally getting the chance to challenge players from other servers.