Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

[Thoris]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

Have you played smn..... At lower lvs the dmg is not good i mean come on i have my smn skill capped and with a full Aust gear, and Double slap is missing and doing anywhere from 120-380 dmg i got 380 dmg 2 times from lv 50-53. I know the Dmg gets better for smn at high lvs but come on as a blm i was doing 900-1400 burst with Freeze and 400+ with firga2.

I mean at lv 53 i am still doing 14-22 dmg with the avatars when they melee, If they could do 25-35 per hit and get more hits then misses i can see summoners leaving there avatars out. I really do hate Main healing but i need to do it for fast exp.

If they dont make avatars stronger melee then please add a en attacks to them. or they can make sure they scale the dmg for the Blood pacts. i think at lv 50 my attacks should be doing 300+ and some spike dmg of 500 by lv 50. Also the avatars should be stronger in magic i mean blizzard 2 on beetles was doing 100 dmg non bursted. Give me a break i should see 200+ at least 300+ bursted. I did break 295 with 300tp on a distortion Burst.

[Thoris]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

Now if u look at Bluemage, They do good numbers with sword attacks, weapon skills, Blue magic. Now on the other hand all smn has are its Avatars which uses to much mp for them to melee and when they do melee they miss or do crap dmg. Now the big dmg numbers AKa lv 70 Blood pacts they can do anywhere from 100-1300 dmg which is great. But the thing is at the end of the fight the Bluemage will do way more dmg then the smn can because we are held back by the 1 min timer and the in consisted dmg numbers.

[Anaki]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

im seeing a very interesting line here for jobs..

job A is awesome in everything in category A thus making it overpowered.

while at the same time job A is crappy and useless in category B and thus making it useless and in need of a fix

like SMNs in HNM are gods to what i read and smns in XP have no purpose other then to replace a whm and be gimpy at it (for alot of the time) and are only useful in xp at lvl 70+ usually

theres also the manaburn|tpburn line.

al the jobs seem to be divided and each unique in its way which is what SE wants i think but people are taking it and saying "they are different they cant go together" preventing any form of group effort which is really the opposite of what SE wants. so for job updates wont SE need a way to group jobs together and keep them apart o.O seems hard to me

[BurningPanther]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

In the midlevel range, BLU certainly seems to outdo SMN in terms of physical damage, and I do think that avatar physical attack could use some tweaking.
However, SMN and it's avatars are not solely physical in damage, and look at a 75 SMN(when they truly shine), and you'll see that SLM leave BLU in the dust damage-wise.

My appraisal of BP costs and Perpetuation costs was simply in response to S-E's prior comments about how they hoped to improve the class. If not for the "MP double-whammy," any SMN would start off from level 1 as potentially the biggest dealer of damage in the game, outshining even BLM. But again, it's the MP thing holding them back, possibly for the sake of balance.

But SMN certainly doesn't need to be nerfed. not in any way.

[Thoris]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

i would love if my avtars can do more dmg and take a DD role. The way i see it is the Bloodpacts are there Weapon skills per say. If they could only do more dmg doing melee and then have more Acc hitting with Blood pacts that would be a True DD/support.

[little ninja]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

SMN does not need changes. It is the #1 DD on 95% of things now period if you have enough of them. It needs hit with the nerf stick, or SE needs to actaully bring other jobs up to snuff.

Well i wouldnt call for a nerf, but watching them do 3-5k worth of damage on Gods an other Hnm's is becoming a joke. I mean thats why Rng an Blm where "tweaked" wasnt it...

As for BST, new jug pets are inevitable, but it does need some kind of defined role for EXP PTs, a job trait and job abilities to help them do well in that arena. There are plenty of possibilities, yet BSTs continue to wait. I surely don't complain about soloing, I see more beastmen seals in a few hours than most people do all week.

Yeah there are so many things they could do. Especially to fix the infumous despawn patch, So now im Crossing my fingers that the bst get something new to the job. If not i probably will walk away..

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

Yeah there are so many things they could do. Especially to fix the infumous despawn patch, So now im Crossing my fingers that the bst get something new to the job. If not i probably will walk away..

If they could make it so mobs would just return to their spawnpoint without aggro, even that would be something. Or even extend the window before despawn. The changes can be worked around, but its not always easy to do so.

I do realize that the despawn patch was an RMT countermeasure - their antics at Bune camp are infamous, aggroing gobs and robber crabs from the lower level of zone - plus there were also BSTs who used their abilities to MPK. Those things had to change and I don't disagree with SE's decision in that regard.

I think Karinya certainly has a valid viewpoint, but you're going to upset a lot more people by nerfing something than by buffing it, and there's little more important to the business than keeping your customers happy. If a nerf needs to happen in some form then they should buff the mobs or nerf the respawn time on mobs or the experience bonus from sanction. That way no particular job or class can feel victimized. If they buff players a little and buff the challenges in the game more, they can still tweak up the difficulty while still allowing the sheep to thing they're getting presents instead of picked on.

I've always been of the opinion that the mobs should be scaled up, particularly the handful of ToA mobs that are exploited for the TP burn trend. There's no good reason for Imps to give the EXP they do or /check as Tough or VT - I've one-shotted these as RNG/WAR, they're a joke. Same thing with Puks.

They crutch arguments against buffing the mobs is it would nerf TP Burn, but you know what? A merit per hour was possible before ToA without a Burn PT and Sanction, so you can't tell me its not possible otherwise. Others would say it would swing things back in BLM's favor and other jobs. Well that's not really any different from what's happening, now is it?

I don't think PLD, SAM, SMN or DRK got overbuffed. If anything, these were exactly the changes they needed. /SAM opened up doors for DRG, WAR and DRK alike (even if WAR still scurries back to /NIN if fear).

SE can't control player behavior, but when they make a few jobs and party setups so grossly favored over all others, they'd have to be fools not to expect the players to follow.

Any change in balance would not change the fact that people will scurry to the next, most-favored job for EXP PTs. This wasn't a problem that came with ToA, it was there in RoZ and CoP as well. Buff the mobs or nerf a job and players will change tactics to get the most EXP per hour and jobs will still be shunned at 70+ for merit PTs. There's no way out of that situation.

[Malacite]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

The biggest problem with SMN is that it can't even do what it was designed to, which is summon an avatar and keep it out for some fun and mayhem. It's because of this that the job (like a few others) is defined by it's sub job, which usually WHM.

Speaking of which, it'd be nice if PLD wasn't so dependent on /WAR for keeping hate. But then every PLD and their cousin would sub NIN and things would get way out of hand...

[Karinya]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

Sorry, I didn't intend to imply that the jobs that got directly adjusted like PLD, SAM, SMN or DRK were overbuffed. Those adjustments were for the most part needed, as were the dagger changes and the adjustment to TP gain for high delay weapons. (Two-handed weapons still don't have a big enough lead in WS damage, IMO, but that's mainly because of the ease of spamming multihits on low evasion and defense targets and certain overpowered 1-hand weapons.)

What was overbuffed was damage dealing in general, and particularly /NIN has been ridiculously overpowered since genkai 5 was added but it's much more evident with the new ultraweak, ultrafast repop mobs. Yes, they can still lose shadows while berserk and get fang rushed for 1300+, I've seen it happen; but as long as it doesn't happen they're doing ludicrous amounts of damage with no consequences. The costs and risks of such a setup are nowhere near commensurate with the potential rewards, and accordingly there's no real incentive to try to keep hate on a tank.

I also think that haste (gear and buffs) should no longer affect recast timers. It's simply too powerful to be able to improve your damage *and* your damage mitigation with the same set of gear. Without that, ninjas will actually need evasion and parry, and jobs without any evasion won't be able to keep up shadows 100% of the time just because they sub NIN.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

From talking to my friend Zexx about the ins and outs of NIN end-game, Haste gear is pretty much essential. No amount of Evasion gear will assist in dodging hits from say, Bahamut or Jailers or any other HNMs. It all comes down to being able to throw up Shadows as fast as possible and having Damage mitigation gear in the off-swings in between. So I don't agree with the Haste nerfing concept.

However, ToAU has gotten completely out of control. Favoritism is at an all-time high, and even I'm guilty of such.

Maybe it's because I'm a parsing whore, but as a RDM, I'd rather give 40MP to a melee for Haste than to a BLM for Refresh.

That's a bad thing.

But we've all been conditioned to try and maximize our time, and there isn't a person on this forum who isn't guilty of trying to get the most out of the time they spend playing this game. Whether it's someone with an unfavored job talking about having the others get nerfed or it's someone with a popular job asking for more... We're all guilty and greedy.

That's a personal problem, something that can't disappear, so in the interest of the thread, I'm going to say that if RDMs are given more enfeebling spells, expect the floodgates to open once again. At the very least, I'd like to be able to have 9 levels of upgrades in Merit Category II....

Oh, and BLU are ridiculous low-mid levels. I parsed myself as RNG 31-32 in Yhoator Jungle with a BLU the same level... It was ridiculous. The only reason I surpassed her in damage was because I had to resort to Barrage.

From my parses in merit pts, the story falls apart, but BLU weren't made to be top-tier DDs. And stop saying that RDMs need to be adjusted melee-wise. I'm so glad BLU is a job now, because a LOT of melee-RDMs quit.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

What was overbuffed was damage dealing in general, and particularly /NIN has been ridiculously overpowered since genkai 5 was added but it's much more evident with the new ultraweak, ultrafast repop mobs. Yes, they can still lose shadows while berserk and get fang rushed for 1300+, I've seen it happen; but as long as it doesn't happen they're doing ludicrous amounts of damage with no consequences. The costs and risks of such a setup are nowhere near commensurate with the potential rewards, and accordingly there's no real incentive to try to keep hate on a tank.

Move up Utsusemi to 38 and I'd say "Problem Solved" but anyone else would likely scream bloody murder and people might even quit the game in droves. I think more mob attacks that ignore Utsusemi, a buff to mob levels and longer repops are really the only alternative.

I also think that haste (gear and buffs) should no longer affect recast timers. It's simply too powerful to be able to improve your damage *and* your damage mitigation with the same set of gear. Without that, ninjas will actually need evasion and parry, and jobs without any evasion won't be able to keep up shadows 100% of the time just because they sub NIN.

I think SE was on the right track with Hasso and Seigan in placing a recast penalty on spells while offering an incentive for the trade-off. The same recast penalty should be placed on a new job abilty, applying directly to WAR main. Yet the job ability should be appealing enough to justify the trade-off. The /SAM update worked for every two-handed melee but WAR, the majority of the WAR population has not embraced it..

Nerfing Haste would also cause lots of angry players and I don't think its fair to NIN main to damage their ability to tank since we have so few tanking classes as is. Haste is too powerful for a handful of jobs - WAR, MNK and BRD spring to mind - while it doesn't do much for the rest of the melees or even PLD, so I think we need solutions that tackle those particular jobs directly.

RNGs and CORs have never really gotten to enjoy a form of haste at EXP levels. RNG only has Snap Shot to turn to, and that's a merit ability. COR's doesn't even get that (yet) and since thier buffs are job abilities, haste doesn't affect that, either. RDM honestly has so much to do they need Haste, meanwhile BRD has more Haste than it needs.

Perhaps SE should make it so March x2 stacked equals RDM/WHM's Haste. As it stands, BRD doing March x2 outclasses Haste and Hastega. Meanwhile COR doesn't even have a Haste to give. If COR isn't going to get a haste - and I'm not saying I want one - BRD's March shouldn't be more powerful that RDM, SMN or WHM's.

Nerfing the gear = loads of angry players, nuff said. Find another way. +% Slow gear that's attractive in other departments. I love my Deadeye Gloves and will wear them til Kote and Crimson and that +6% Slow effect does hurt my recast timers.

[Runningriot]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

Also, I wish they'd step up the work on the Coliseum. I'm not much for PvP but I know a few players who stuck around for ToAU for that feature alone, and I'd like to see them get their due. I bet that'll be the next thing after chocobo racing.

what is this coliseum you speak of? i haven't heard a single thing about it. please explain!

[Taskmage]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

what is this coliseum you speak of? i haven't heard a single thing about it. please explain!

The colosseum was announced as part of ToAU back at the 2006 Fan Festival. It was originally scheduled to be released in a patch this last fall.

The Colosseum is exactly what the name suggests. It will be a place for battles... by monsters versus other monsters! Don't worry, you won't need a high job level to experience what The Colosseum has to offer. We can't say too much about it now, so we'll have to leave it up to your imagination!

Very little real information has been released about it since, but there's been plenty of speculation. There are a lot of people hoping that it will include some kind of PvP that isn't structured like team sports, perhaps just a free-for-all or public duel tournaments. The maps and all the geometry of the colosseum zone are already in the game, but there's currently no way to get to it. Here's a pic of the zone from when they released the info:

[little ninja]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

If they could make it so mobs would just return to their spawnpoint without aggro, even that would be something. Or even extend the window before despawn. The changes can be worked around, but its not always easy to do so.
I do realize that the despawn patch was an RMT countermeasure - their antics at Bune camp are infamous, aggroing gobs and robber crabs from the lower level of zone - plus there were also BSTs who used their abilities to MPK. Those things had to change and I don't disagree with SE's decision in that regard..

I never had a problem with the reasons for such a patch. My problems were how it effected mobs, Depoping was always way to fast, not popping the same lvl, An having no clue on its origin of spawn made for alot of problems.

Move up Utsusemi to 38 and I'd say "Problem Solved" but anyone else would likely scream bloody murder and people might even quit the game in droves. I think more mob attacks that ignore Utsusemi, a buff to mob levels and longer repops are really the only alternative..

They have already screwed around with Utsus enough. AoE goes thru them, Then im not sure but they patched it again cause all of a sudden goblin rush removed all shadows instead of 1. An then they made it so you lost eminity when your shadow was hit. If the problem was subbing nin, making more eminity when a shadow was hit would be better, That way if anyone subs nin, they basically die.. lol

[Taskmage]

Re: Upcoming Version Update (02/09/2007)

I haven't leveled smn to any respectable level, so take my opinions with a grain of salt, but here's my two cents on the smn conversation.
I've percieved smn as having three main problems:

1. The damage dealt by avatar melee doesn't justify the mp spent on perpetuation or the tp that it gives to the mob.
2. Without a subjob, a summoner literally has nothing to do in the minute of downtime between blood pacts.
3. Offensive abilities from subjobs are pathetically weak without a skill rating for it on your main job. Thus, the only viably useful subjob for smn is whm for its unresistable healing magic.

Whether #1 is true or not is something I haven't really examined. At level 51 with a dark staff it costs 8 mp to keep Fenrir out for one attack round. How does the damage of one hit from Fenrir compare to the damage of Stone, which costs 9 mp? Possibly a better question: How does the damage from 12 hits from Fenrir (96 mp) compare to the damage of Stone III, which costs 92 mp and is a blm's highest nuke at that level? I don't know the answers, but if the numbers are anywhere close then the avatar is worth the mp. I don't care much for the tp arguement. Mobs have been shown to gain tp at such an absurd rate in exp parties that I don't think the avatar would make that significant of a difference even at 10 tp a swipe. The real sacrifice is that the summoner can't rest as long as they're keeping an avatar out.

#2 is the reason, imo, that the summoner job is defined by its subjob. Splitting the blood pact timers seems like a good fix for this by giving the summoners more to do with their time that actually comes from their main job, rather than getting to be summoners once a minute and being stuck as a gimp whm the rest of the time. Since, again, I am not a summoner, I can't say how well this has worked out in practice, but it seem to me like a major step in the right direction.

#3 can't be addressed easily, but it's a problem nonetheless. Because smn's melee ability is largely useless and they possess no magic skills that are used by other jobs, most subjobs are completely useless to smn. It's a slightly different problem than pld has. It's not that smn needs whm to be able to do its job, it's just that /whming is the only thing smn can do effectively.

As far as their power level, I don't think there's a problem. Summoner is a "hybrid" type job like red mage, blue mage, corsair and ninja (utsusemi notwithstanding). It can do many things well and so it's to be expected that a job that specializes in just one of those things would outperform it in that aspect. A black mage, whose only function is to deal magic damage, should always be able to do more magic damage than a summoner or their job would be pointless.

Now, you might argue that even the hybrid jobs I named have some specialty or special function that makes them better than other jobs, whereas smn does not. They do though, as Running Demon pointed out: their damage and abilities are essentially hate-free. It's just that the ability to shed or avoid hate isn't something that's valued by modern party setups and attitudes. It's not underpowered, just underappreciated; as already mentioned that ability can be extremely powerful when a player creates or identifies a situation that plays to that strength.