Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

[Karinya]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

It's not just about holding hate though, the new Rampart effect will reduce the damage the whole party takes from monsters casting spells, goblin bombs, cursed sphere, heck, even bubble shower at the higher levels where it actually does damage. And hitting the new sentinel just before the monster reaches 20% HP and sickle slashes you could reduce your damage taken from that too.

Until we see the effects, though, I'm not about to pronounce PLD useful endgame tanks. Remember that NIN can reduce *most* magic damage by 100%. It's hard to reduce it more than that. For other party members the effect will likely be redundant to Earthen Ward/Diamondhide (both of which have MUCH shorter recast). Special effects caused by the attack (Thunder Break, Radiant Breath, etc.) probably won't be stopped even if the damage is reduced to 0.

Also, you have to correctly anticipate when the enemy is going to use their magic damage; while this might work great on Suzaku or Berith, you're very unlikely to catch Kirin's 2hr for example. And that's assuming it's a *large* amount - it could just as easily be (level*2) or something worthless like that.

Granted, the changes *could* be really good. And I'll certainly be trying to take as much advantage of them as possible (hitting Rampart whenever a Dynamis ninja mob gets to 50%ish HP, for example, or using Sentinel against Hundred Fists). But it's not necessarily Spectral Barrier-ga.

[Icemage]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

Do you look at everything from the scope of merit PTs? Really, it seems your entire view of the game is biased toward it and whatever isn't efficient in your view is "worthless."

Au contraire. I do a lot of HNMing and other activities too. When I say these things are weak, I mean they're weak in many contexts, not just meripo.

Protectra V - More Defense, Less Damage taken. Problem? I see none.

*5* more defense. Amount of damage reduced by 5 more defense at level 75 from an HNM: ZERO.

Dirge/Sirvente - being able to control or reduce enmity, I think that has a place in HNM. It could keep people from having to do that weak "log to erase hate" tactic.

Foe Sirvente I have no issues with. It definitely has its place, particularly for Ninja tanks.

Adventurer's Dirge is pointless. Single target enmity reduction - who cares? BLMs? I guarantee any BLM worth their salt would rather be packing Ballad I or Logical Etude than Adventurer's Dirge. Considering the ridiculous amounts of enmity generated by Ancient Magic II, a few bits of enmity plus or minus makes no difference - if the tanks are losing control, they're losing control, and this sorry excuse for a song will not save your BLMs.

Deep Breathing - Solo DRG much? You can use this for Healing Breath to restore full HP after Spirit Link. And with Offensive wyvern, you can deal higher breath damage. This along with Strafe to reduce resists.

Solo DRGs rely on their breath effects, it's true. However, with a 20 minute recast, this isn't exactly the end-all and be-all ability. And if you're not solo, then it's pretty nigh on completely worthless since chances are you're not using /mage (and seriously who cares about improved breath attack damage in any context?).

Recycle - Might not go off often, but with Unlimited Shot and this ability, I'd appreciate all bullets saved. When you're burning Silvers, Demons or Kabura, you would too.

If you can't afford an extra bit of ammo here or there on RNG, you're playing completely the wrong job in the first place. There are much better things to be spending merits on than this (want to know how important Recycle is? See a RNG AF2 hat with Recycle+ drop in Dynamis and watch as people scramble to NOT win the lots on it).


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

If you can't afford an extra bit of ammo here or there on RNG, you're playing completely the wrong job in the first place. There are much better things to be spending merits on than this (want to know how important Recycle is? See a RNG AF2 hat with Recycle+ drop in Dynamis and watch as people scramble to NOT win the lots on it).

Don't turn this into that elitest Allazite/KI crap. Its about being able to go a little longer, not being a cheapass. I'm just saying being able to stretch things like silver bullets and the higher level arrows is nice, whether the ability goes off often or not. Being able to make the ammo last is rather important to me, I WS with every Unlimited Shot I can. I'd merit Recycle at least once.

I've seen plenty of RNGs with the Beret. Maybe it just drops to them because no one wants it, but they don't seem to complain about having it, either.

Most RNG EXP/Merit is cheap anyway once you get Othenus' Bow. RNG is expensive when it comes to GUNS, nowhere else (not even bow now considering Marid Arrows do fairly comprable damage to Kabura now. 30k for 99 kabura arrows or 10k for relatively the same damage on Marid arrows? Hmmmmmm, there's a no-brainer).

Additionally, NIN got a similar ability to recycle in the update, when you're tanking and enfeebing the target, you're gonna want to save a little here and there to keep the party of fight going as much as you can.

And really, merits are about customizing your job and overall character. What one person merits isn't going to be the same as another person.

The DRG that solos a lot is going to merit Deep Breathing, just like a RDM would fully merit Convert if they did the same. Its all about your play style.

[Icemage]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

Don't turn this into that elitest Allazite/KI crap. Its about being able to go a little longer, not being a cheapass. I'm just saying being able to stretch things like silver bullets and the higher level arrows is nice, whether the ability goes off often or not. Being able to make the ammo last is rather important to me, I WS with every Unlimited Shot I can. I'd merit Recycle at least once.

This isn't elitism, it's pragmatism. Recycle kicks in so rarely (seem to recall it's 5% base) that it makes little difference to your ammo endurance. I suppose if you were paranoid about losing a Patriarch Protector's Arrow to a failed activation on Unlimited Shot or something... but it isn't even likely to save you in that situation. Unlike other merits, Recycle does nothing but save you a bit of gil and maybe a tiny bit of inventory space.

Quite honestly Flashy Shot and Stealth Shot are better for end-game and other level 75 activities, and Snapshot beats them all. Unless you do nothing but merit parties and similar low-impact activities at level 75, there's zero reason to merit Recycle in favor of something that actually improves your combat potency.

I've seen plenty of RNGs with the Beret. Maybe it just drops to them because no one wants it, but they don't seem to complain about having it, either.

Complain? It doesn't take away stats or anything. But that's not nearly the same as saying it's useful.

Most RNG EXP/Merit is cheap anyway once you get Othenus' Bow. RNG is expensive when it comes to GUNS, nowhere else (not even bow now considering Marid Arrows do fairly comprable damage to Kabura now. 30k for 99 kabura arrows or 10k for relatively the same damage on Marid arrows? Hmmmmmm, there's a no-brainer).

... so you went through all that argument to say RNG is expensive and so saving ammo is a good idea, then turn around and tear your own premise apart by saying it's actually not expensive? I don't understand your logic here.

Additionally, NIN got a similar ability to recycle in the update, when you're tanking and enfeebing the target, you're gonna want to save a little here and there to keep the party of fight going as much as you can.

Ninja Tool Expertise is not nearly in the same boat as Recycle. NIN Group 2 merits are extremely situational - you'd have to have some San level Ninjutsu to even see much payoff from any of the other categories, so there's not a compelling reason to merit ANY of the NIN Group 2 stuff. This is not the case with RNG Group 2.

And really, merits are about customizing your job and overall character. What one person merits isn't going to be the same as another person.

True, but that doesn't mean we can't make value judgments on the relative usefulness of each ability. Unless you'd care to argue that Protectra V is equally useful compared to Absorb-TP.

The DRG that solos a lot is going to merit Deep Breathing, just like a RDM would fully merit Convert if they did the same. Its all about your play style.

Mmm... possible but doubtful. Angon completely trumps Deep Breathing, and Empathy trumps it too. I could see a dedicated solo DRG75 who might toss a level or two into Deep Breathing - but I sincerely doubt it since (like with RNG merits) there are better options.


Icemage

[Akashimo]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

True, but that doesn't mean we can't make value judgments on the relative usefulness of each ability. Unless you'd care to argue that Protectra V is equally useful compared to Absorb-TP.


Mmm... possible but doubtful. Angon completely trumps Deep Breathing, and Empathy trumps it too. I could see a dedicated solo DRG75 who might toss a level or two into Deep Breathing - but I sincerely doubt it since (like with RNG merits) there are better options.


Icemage

Unfortantly, I'd have to aggre in how useful Pro 5 is. And if its the only thing meritted in the group 2 for whm, max def bonus would be 15. 5 from first, 2 from additional. Yet with how people want to be the best, they'll make sure to make every little thing count. So would you rather have +5 or +0 if it came down to def in HNM?

As for DRG, I'll admit i don't really know much passed 37. But like what I said about Pro 5, its still something to get the job done best possible for a player's playing style. And be it, if and possibly when i do take drg up I'd most likely go for the soloing bit on that over pty invites.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

If anyone at SE actually knew about real medieval combat, they'd know that a PLD should be a nigh-unstopable force, at least 1 vs 1. I really think they should make PLD strong that they can hold their own without the need of a healer in EXP parties (EXP, NOT HNM etc) except for say in emergencies. Seriously, Plate Maile is probably the most effective form of armor ever conceived, and fighting someone decked out in it with a sword and shield in hand is no easy task. Sword & Shield is just THAT good.

It's too bad there aren't any old manuscripts from the Dark Ages detailing a Knight's Training Regimen, or we'd all have a much greater scope of how it really works. But from a realistic point of view, Paladin and Dark Knight should both literally be tanks >_> (DRG too I suppose since it's also a "knight")

haha, not even getting into the fantasy aspect, but there was no such dreadnoughts in reality. Ironic enough, what you said is spawned off fantasy itself. Thinking in terms of semi-reality, based on canon events in this game, in this game people, armor, and weapons are far superior than their real-world counterparts in toughness and skill. A squad of mounted knights is extremely more powerful than their real-life counterparts against a squad of distanced gun-users. Bastok, which is pretty much steampunk / 1700s technology, were being slaughtered by the old-fashion, knights of San d'Orians(who were being spread out due to the war against an alliance of Yagudo and Tarutaru to the east) until they were able to shift the war using good tactical maneuvers.

In the real world Knights were weak when compared to other nations' or future generations' prime fighters. Swords are weak compared to maces, hammers, or sometimes axes. Knights only hold any advantage against other knights to be honest. All that armor is pretty unpractical for anything outside mounted combat, which if you want to talk realism, was the focus of knights.

[Malacite]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

umm.... no and no.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

^ A very good read, and rather enlightening. And Bastok was kicking the crap out of Sandy, not the other way around, because they had guns. Plate maile is THE most effective armor ever conceived, and will stop arrows cold, but won't do much (if anything) against a gun.

You're thinking of the extremely heavy full plate that mounted knights used.... which is completely different from the standard issue plate maile that a foot soldier would wear. Contrary to popular belief, it was NOT as heavy and restrictive as movies would have you believe. I'm not saying you'd be able to run a marathon in it, but you could at least run around a battlefield if needed.


You do make a good point about the Knight vs Knight comment, but the same can be said about any warring groups throughout history. As the guy points out in the article however, a Knight in Plate Maile would still have a significant advantage over most opponents.

"Plate-armor for foot combat was well-balanced, maneuverable, and sometimes even made of tempered steel. It was well-suited for fighting in, and is far from the awkward, lumbering cliché presented by Hollywood. Unless you've worn accurate well-made plate of this kind, it is impossible to really know how it influenced the way a knight would move."

Good luck tearing through that without a claymore or some other big ass two handed weapon. Maces, hammers (save the huge massive 2 handed un-wieldy piece of crap kind) and Axes would still be far too slow for sword & shield knight.

Read the section on shield fighting for a better idea of how a Paladin SHOULD fight (just throw in curative magic to what he says and there you go >.>)


But as we all know, this would royally screw up game balance. ; ;

[Celeal]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

But the sword and shield + knight armor is designed for combat against human being, isn't it ^^?

In FFXI we are fighting monster =P

/end of joking XD

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

This isn't elitism, it's pragmatism. Recycle kicks in so rarely (seem to recall it's 5% base) that it makes little difference to your ammo endurance. I suppose if you were paranoid about losing a Patriarch Protector's Arrow to a failed activation on Unlimited Shot or something... but it isn't even likely to save you in that situation. Unlike other merits, Recycle does nothing but save you a bit of gil and maybe a tiny bit of inventory space.

Quite honestly Flashy Shot and Stealth Shot are better for end-game and other level 75 activities, and Snapshot beats them all. Unless you do nothing but merit parties and similar low-impact activities at level 75, there's zero reason to merit Recycle in favor of something that actually improves your combat potency.

Snap Shot makes a marginal difference. To really get anything out of it, you'd have to give up the other abilities to acheive the permanent 12 pecent haste effect. For a job that needs to walk the hate line anyway, I don't see how being able to shoot a little faster is helping you. If would offset the obnoxious delay of Hellfire a bit, sure, but I think I could live without fully upgrading that particular ability. In that respect its just as marginal as you feel Recycle is.

... so you went through all that argument to say RNG is expensive and so saving ammo is a good idea, then turn around and tear your own premise apart by saying it's actually not expensive? I don't understand your logic here.

I said guns are expensive, Bows and Xbows you can really stretch out your ammo options on these days. My bread and butter for RNG at endgame is going to be guns and as COR its going to be the only weapon I probably ever can use. I'm going for full Marskmanship in that regard. Additionally, since bolts are the bulk of what I will use in EXP and Merit, I'd have more to spend on bullets for events anyway. I'll still use bows if I feel they're needed, but not so much soon.

COR is basically getting a pseudo Unlimited Shot with the QD recast adjustment, for that, I AM thankful. It will make the bullets go a long way and considering buffing takes up part of my time in a fight anyway, bullets go even further now. But Recycle and Unlimited Shot are as good as it will ever get in regards to silver bullets and cannon shells. Again, I'd merit it just once to get some benefit, and then the others.

If that's not how you want to do it, that's your call. I think its just rather shortsighted to look at everything through the scope of endgame.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

Good luck tearing through that without a claymore or some other big ass two handed weapon.

One word, Agincourt.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

And Bastok was kicking the crap out of Sandy, not the other way around, because they had guns. Plate maile is THE most effective armor ever conceived, and will stop arrows cold, but won't do much (if anything) against a gun.

You are incorrect, Bastok were being easily defeated until late in the war. Bastok had guns since the very start.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

I overlooked one detail about the COR update and I think this aspect of it just wrong on every level.

They're getting rapid shot. Which was just as much a dubious move as PLD getting Auto-refresh. PLD could honestly go without that trait too, seeings as they now can get Sanction Refresh, Parade Gorget and wear vermy in between fights. This on top of three existing refresh jobs.

As far as Rapid Shot goes, I'll concede that it doesn't go off that much anyway unless you want to merit it to go off more as a RNG, but its one of the reasons CORs sub RNG to begin with and this also defeats the purpose of Beater's Mantle.

Unless you're gonna make the Rapid Shot traits stack, you're just giving people another excuse not to level RNG to support COR as one of the main subjobs.

What's next, give COR Barrage and Accuracy Bonus 1-4, too?

Additionally, taking the damage away from Light and Dark shot is lame. COR is gutted of two types of elemental damage, what the hell? We're now gimped against Light and Dark mobs for magic damage, oh but we can sleep and dispel them now! Gee, thanks! Couldn't it just have been both? Quick Draw is multifunctional as is, don't gimp it.

[Icemage]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

Snap Shot makes a marginal difference. To really get anything out of it, you'd have to give up the other abilities to acheive the permanent 12 pecent haste effect. For a job that needs to walk the hate line anyway, I don't see how being able to shoot a little faster is helping you. If would offset the obnoxious delay of Hellfire a bit, sure, but I think I could live without fully upgrading that particular ability. In that respect its just as marginal as you feel Recycle is.

Uh... yeah, because you know, every DD is just dying to not have permanent haste on their attacks, right? You've got to be kidding me. Less time spent shooting means more damage output over time in any situation, or more time to cast Utsusemi or use something else in the mean time.

I said guns are expensive, Bows and Xbows you can really stretch out your ammo options on these days. My bread and butter for RNG at endgame is going to be guns and as COR its going to be the only weapon I probably ever can use.

Since we're talking about RNG merits, COR doesn't enter into the discussion. If you're interested in saving money on ammo, use bows. Or failing that, use your melee weapon a bit more for TP (considering gun sweet spot is like 1 step outside of melee range, this isn't exactly difficult).

I'm going for full Marskmanship in that regard. Additionally, since bolts are the bulk of what I will use in EXP and Merit, I'd have more to spend on bullets for events anyway. I'll still use bows if I feel they're needed, but not so much soon.

Um... hello? Recycle is a merit ability. You can't get it until you're level 75 RNG. This isn't going to help you for EXP. Merits, yes. EXP, no.

But Recycle and Unlimited Shot are as good as it will ever get in regards to silver bullets and cannon shells. Again, I'd merit it just once to get some benefit, and then the others.

If that's not how you want to do it, that's your call. I think its just rather shortsighted to look at everything through the scope of endgame.

To each his own - but I think you'll find that precious few people will agree with your stance that a permanent Haste effect and the ability to negate level differentials is less useful than saving small amounts of ammunition with a single level of Recycle. I could understand this if you were planning on getting a RNG AF2 hat + getting level 3 Recycle + wanted to use RNG exclusively as your primary job for getting merits... though in that case I'd still take the position that levelling Alchemy will get you much closer to where you want to be than spending merits on Recycle.


Icemage

[csBahamut]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

The PLD changes don't address the real issues: PLDs in merit parties. While the Sentinel and Rampart changes are helpful, the boost isn't that significant. Just look at the duration of Sentinel and Rampart compared to the 5 min recast time. These changes are nothing more than a tease there to make people think we're getting a good boost. The best thing us PLDs get is the shield change, in my opinion.

When SE makes job changes that fix the NIN/MNK/WAR/RDM/BRD only for meripo and such, then I'll be happy.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Job Adjustments - 12/01/2006

Uh... yeah, because you know, every DD is just dying to not have permanent haste on their attacks, right? You've got to be kidding me. Less time spent shooting means more damage output over time in any situation, or more time to cast Utsusemi or use something else in the mean time.

Read before replying. I'm not going to continue this or addressing the rest of it, since its clear you'd rather rant than read.

Its the player's choice - Not Icemage's - get that through your head, man, you're smarter than this.