Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

[Murphie]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

As much as I enjoyed my couple of low level Besieged stints, I could totally get behind a < 70 warp to Whitegate feature. I'm sure that would make some folks angry, but it's not like they'll be sub-70 forever.

[Raydeus]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

A dynamic minimum lvl cap might be more flexible to players.

Maybe something like lvl 50 cap for level 1 Besieged, lvl 60 for level 2-3 and lvl 70 min cap for level 4-6 Besieged.

Or something like that.

[Murphie]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

Actually, that's not a bad idea at all, Raydeus.

[Caspian]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

P.S. Can you imagine how much MP is wasted on Raises for all these clowns who are underlevelled at Besieged?
Icemage

/em raises hand.
Me.
Have to say I really enjoy the ones I go to. Usually just EES, kill the few weak pets and such that I can actually do well against, then just go hide for a while until Sharpshot is back up and I can go hit things for another minute.

Kicking <70's would honestly be a better idea than capping the lower level ones. Not because its a better idea in and of itself, but because if you capped the lower ones noone would show up. Sadly the majority of people dont want to have to go get there level capped armor just to go to besieged. Half the time people on Fairy can't be bothered with going to Besieged to begin with. If people would still go, then I'd think capped Besieges would be great. But it would probably only result in Fairy never having the AC again.
Sorry, not trying to pee in anyone's Cheerios, but a lot of people who play this game are pretty damn lazy.

[little ninja]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

Ask me i hope they give acc type drops. nothing like having +30acc with weapon merits an u dont hit a darn thing

also i wish theyd take out AoE, cause honestly 400 peeps all getting killed by 1k+ of damage is a little exsesive

[Kitalrez]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

P.S. Can you imagine how much MP is wasted on Raises for all these clowns who are underlevelled at Besieged?
Icemage

Except that you're ignoring the fact that the majority of player raises are coming from your lower level RDM, WHM, and PLD crowd who want to contribute but hit the mobs like a paraplegic schoolgirl. Or at least this is how it typically works on Diabolos when I'm in Besieged. If I'm on Besieged as SMN or WHM, I'm typically running around trying to sneak in a diaga and do a few raises, like the others in my boat. If I do see someone in Noble's gear, they're in a party keeping 5 other players alive so they can guard a general or take down an NM. Ideally, that's exactly how I'd like things to go... use that 75 WHM MP to keep someone else alive, let the rest of us deal with the corpses.
With no-exp loss, Besieged is basically a war of attrition. You want an influx of lowbie raisers to keep everyone else standing, since you don't get nearly the high level participation levels needed to actually win if you impose a hard cap. Yeah, every lvl 30 DRG or MNK is nothing but one-shot cannon fodder, but if you drop all your lvl 25 WHMs, lvl 38 RDMs and lvl 50 PLDs you're going to be toast alot faster. SE's not going to pick and choose which jobs have to be lvl capped and which get in, so any cap is basically shooting your defending army in the foot as far as the support wing is concerned.

[tazirai]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

Kick everyone below 70.
**** them all.

hehe, I'm liking this New besieged update, hopefulyl the exp spike will equal more involvement from me in besieged.

[Raydeus]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

Kicking <70's would honestly be a better idea than capping the lower level ones. Not because its a better idea in and of itself, but because if you capped the lower ones noone would show up. Sadly the majority of people dont want to have to go get there level capped armor just to go to besieged. Half the time people on Fairy can't be bothered with going to Besieged to begin with. If people would still go, then I'd think capped Besieges would be great. But it would probably only result in Fairy never having the AC again.
Sorry, not trying to pee in anyone's Cheerios, but a lot of people who play this game are pretty damn lazy.

If it's referring to my post those are min lvl cap, lvl 1 kick everyone below 50, 2-3 below 60 and 4-6 kick everyone below 70.

[Icemage]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

Except that you're ignoring the fact that the majority of player raises are coming from your lower level RDM, WHM, and PLD crowd who want to contribute but hit the mobs like a paraplegic schoolgirl. Or at least this is how it typically works on Diabolos when I'm in Besieged. If I'm on Besieged as SMN or WHM, I'm typically running around trying to sneak in a diaga and do a few raises, like the others in my boat. If I do see someone in Noble's gear, they're in a party keeping 5 other players alive so they can guard a general or take down an NM. Ideally, that's exactly how I'd like things to go... use that 75 WHM MP to keep someone else alive, let the rest of us deal with the corpses.
With no-exp loss, Besieged is basically a war of attrition. You want an influx of lowbie raisers to keep everyone else standing, since you don't get nearly the high level participation levels needed to actually win if you impose a hard cap. Yeah, every lvl 30 DRG or MNK is nothing but one-shot cannon fodder, but if you drop all your lvl 25 WHMs, lvl 38 RDMs and lvl 50 PLDs you're going to be toast alot faster. SE's not going to pick and choose which jobs have to be lvl capped and which get in, so any cap is basically shooting your defending army in the foot as far as the support wing is concerned.

Raise is a level 25 spell and is castable from a /WHM sub. Reraise Earrings cost peanuts and are usable 10 times.

Considering that, by and large, those <70 players fall into one of two categories:

(1) People who have NO jobs in the 60+ range.
People aren't benefitting much from ToAU anyway unless they're at LEAST level 60ish. I don't have any qualms about barring anyone with no 60+ jobs from Besieged because, aside from Raises (which any level 75 could choose to sub WHM and cast), they're not doing anything useful. Melees won't hit, enfeebles won't land, so what's the point?

2) People with a job in the 60-70 range.
These people basically fall into the same bucket as the above, except they might be getting some bonus from having the Candescence in play due to the "lower" level XP spots. Still, their contribution remains the same. Melees can't hit, mage spells will bounce like rubber, so again we're talking about a bunch of people who do nothing but lag the zone and cast Raises.

3) People with at least one 70+ job, but intentionally choose not to use it because they want the XP on another job.
I have ZERO issues with kicking these people the hell out of Al Zhabi until they choose to use a job that can actually contribute. Let's face it, the majority of the player base has at least one high level job, but many people choose not to use their best job in Besieged, either because their 75 job is already maxed on XP (and thus gets no benefit, since you cannot earn merits this way), or because they want the XP on another job they're trying to level (much more common).

It's mostly item 3 that I have a huge problem with. People who could be doing something useful, but instead choose not to. Screw that. If you want to do Besieged, come and be serious about it, not sit around, cast a few Cures then go AFK for the rest of the 30+ minute battle while you lag the rest of the people who are trying to win.


Icemage

[Caspian]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

If it's referring to my post those are min lvl cap, lvl 1 kick everyone below 50, 2-3 below 60 and 4-6 kick everyone below 70.

Ah, misunderstood the post then. I do think that would be very helpful.

[Taskmage]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

3) People with at least one 70+ job, but intentionally choose not to use it because they want the XP on another job.
I have ZERO issues with kicking these people the hell out of Al Zhabi until they choose to use a job that can actually contribute. Let's face it, the majority of the player base has at least one high level job, but many people choose not to use their best job in Besieged, either because their 75 job is already maxed on XP (and thus gets no benefit, since you cannot earn merits this way), or because they want the XP on another job they're trying to level (much more common).
It's mostly item 3 that I have a huge problem with. People who could be doing something useful, but instead choose not to. Screw that. If you want to do Besieged, come and be serious about it, not sit around, cast a few Cures then go AFK for the rest of the 30+ minute battle while you lag the rest of the people who are trying to win.
Icemage

They should hand out limit points then. I'm not sure why they don't. If you're right then that tiny bit of experience is a major reason people come to besieged, and the people that could contribute the most can't benefit from that.

And honestly, even the estimation of level 70-75 players being able to contribute meaningfully to the attack is generous in a level 5 besieged. As a level 72 with quite respectable equipment, my nukes still land for cheese, my debuffs bounce every which way like anime jugs, and my melee damage and accuracy is laughable, though to be fair in that case, my melee gear is focused on fighting things that con DC or lower, as opposed to LOLGTFO++. As I said earlier, I usually end up doing the same thing with my rdm that I do as 40 whm: buffing people, keeping Dia on everything I see, raising, curing and kiting unclaimed mobs around. With regard to the last three, it may be true as you say that I won't win battles that way, but even if my efforts aren't the reason we eventually claim victory, they might very well be the reason we avoid defeat long enough to do so. When things get down to the wire and everyone's best efforts are needed to succeed, I'm confident in the contribution I make as a support character.

[Nakti]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

I'm one of those players whose main job is below 70. Actually, it's level WHM 45 now (leveled from 42 from Besiegeds). I've been playing for 2+ years. I got really frustrated with pick-up PTs and found Besieged very enjoyable.

Most of the time, on Pandy, we don't even have 400 people for Besieged. I used to think that I was "taking a space" when we had 700, but I don't believe that any more. Reading the posts on the Pandemonium forum, there were at least some level 60+ saying they just sat on the sidelines "like everyone else" self-buffing for XPs. I have no idea whether that's true or not, because I'm too busy running around throwing Cures/-nas to players, trying to target and Cure/-na the generals, and giving out the occasional Raise. Every moment of my time is spent aiding the defeat of the invaders. I even use Yag Drinks.

Besieged won't be any better by limiting the allowable players to 70+ or even 50+. If players want to leech XPs, they'll always find a way.

[little ninja]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

1. You guys can argue all you want about meleeing in besieged, but my 75 job with all its acc an merits still needs to eat sushi in order to hit anythin with good numbers,

2, Mobs are to well buffed in besieged. They constantly have buffs from themselves an the wondering mobs, not to mention insane hp anyways,

3, AoE 1-2 shots most the peeps in besieged anyways, So what im 75, means i can take 1 more 800+AoE from some mob my system cant even show,

4 why buy RR items that u recieve no death penalty.

5. i dont care for the lower lvl goofs anyways, because they seem to be the only ones cure bombing me anyways,

[Icemage]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

1. You guys can argue all you want about meleeing in besieged, but my 75 job with all its acc an merits still needs to eat sushi in order to hit anythin with good numbers

Truth. Level 5 (and egad level 6) mobs have way too much evasion. S-E really needs to drop their evasion, they're way too strong to deal with right now, especially with the outrageous amounts of HP each one has.

2, Mobs are to well buffed in besieged. They constantly have buffs from themselves an the wondering mobs, not to mention insane hp anyways

The buffs aren't just annoying, they're extremely difficult to remove. I wasn't able to Dispel most buffs reliably on level 5 Besieged enemies until I got to around level 73 RDM - prior to that, I got resisted as often as not. That's just silly considering I have pretty much all the Enfeebling gear I can lay hands on plus merits.

3, AoE 1-2 shots most the peeps in besieged anyways, So what im 75, means i can take 1 more 800+AoE from some mob my system cant even show,

All the AoE effects in Besieged are ridiculous. Astral Flow, Radiant Breath, Mijin Gakure, Self-Destruct, Blood Saber, Grave Reel. The first 4 on that list are usually instantly fatal to everyone in range, the last two fully heal outrageous amounts of HP, aside from the damage.

4 why buy RR items that u recieve no death penalty.

Because that's 150MP that could be used to cure-bomb you or someone else? (see below).

5. i dont care for the lower lvl goofs anyways, because they seem to be the only ones cure bombing me anyways,

That's not fair. I curebomb anyone I can spare MP for when I do Besieged. I actually prefer doing it on RDM since I have better MP flow than on WHM, but every time I have to stop and cast Raise on someone is two Cure IV's or a Cure V that I can't cast.


Icemage

[TenchiHawkwing]

Re: Besieged Adjustments (10/10/2006)

Hey, you know what? I kited that big Mamool Ja NM (the big-ass one with the two strange looking axes that casts Utsusemi: Ni[and other jutsu] and has two heads) along with another 58PLD, you know... I was 32NIN. We kept it away from the Hall of Binding when most of the other players were clueless as to what to do and all of our generals were dead(Was the 3rd Lv5 in a row).

We'd been doing this for about 20Min before all the high level people in the zone caught on to what we were doing and tried to help(but died miserably because I guess only the worst kiters came to help).

If all the low levels were kicked out that would have been a loss, low level doesn't = useless if you know what you're capable of. (My home point is actually in Al Zhabi and I didn't realize Besieged was going on, that's the only reason I was there... but since I WAS there, I decided to make myself useful)