Novus: This is how it's done.

[Firewind]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

Thing is, the Animus stage is fine. It gives you a very clear path of progression and you know you will be done eventually. That is why Relics were rewarding in FFXI and Magian weapons really were not due to the RNG stages.

What we basically have is Magians 2.0

[Malacite]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

Only even grindier.

Seriously they could lay off the grind a bit on the books, preferably by lowering the myth cost to something more reasonable like 500 - 1500 is just bit absurd in addition to all the objectives. I don't mind it being a lengthy quest, but you gotta admit the myth cost per book is rather silly especially with relation to the final product - if the Animus weapon was at least on par with the high allagan stuff I wouldn't be complaining (as much, lol). But the fact that it takes more effort and is WORSE is literally adding insult to injury.

Even if the final form of these is absurdly stronger (and they'd better be) than all other weapons, it doesn't justify such a grueling slog for such miniscule, incremental gains.

[Melody]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

Only even grindier.

Seriously they could lay off the grind a bit on the books, preferably by lowering the myth cost to something more reasonable like 500 - 1500 is just bit absurd in addition to all the objectives. I don't mind it being a lengthy quest, but you gotta admit the myth cost per book is rather silly especially with relation to the final product - if the Animus weapon was at least on par with the high allagan stuff I wouldn't be complaining (as much, lol). But the fact that it takes more effort and is WORSE is literally adding insult to injury.

Even if the final form of these is absurdly stronger (and they'd better be) than all other weapons, it doesn't justify such a grueling slog for such miniscule, incremental gains.

Hello, Malacite

The point of the Atma/Animus/Novus is not for the sake of getting it done within a week or two. It's meant to be a long term goal you peck away at and eventually obtain. Trying to reasonably say that the Atma is too hard, must mean you're trying to get it done within x amount of time, when the reality of it is, Yoshi-P stated that it's not something players should rush into doing. Yes, RNG plays a huge factor in your grind, but trying to bullrush the entire thing is only going to make the effort of obtaining it that much worse. I work on mine for maybe 2 hours every day and that's it. I hope this helps.

- Melody

[Malacite]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

The rewards are grossly disproportionate to the effort required.

[Melody]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

The rewards are grossly disproportionate to the effort required.

My FC Leader got his Animus last night. Ji'hara Doxa.

[Firewind]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

He was putting it pretty badly Melody. The Relic Animus is worse than the High Allagan weapons because of the shoddy itemisation on the weapons. Many Relic Weapons are pretty much worthless until the Novus stage because of that. I know that as soon as I got my Elder Staff for the BLM, I have never even touched my Stardust Rod Zenith unless I'm Atma Farming.

The only Animus weapons that are Superior to the Tidal Wave or Mythic (for pack of a better term since the names are all taken from FFXI Mythic weapons) weapons are the WAR and WHM weapons. PLD I think too. Not counting the Novus stage of course since 1) The stats are on par with High Allagan Weapons. 2) You can customise the stats on them so Relic weapons will always have the best itemisation for your class and build.

It actually sucks as a BLM because basically you are stuck using the Allagan Scepter + Ancient Buckler or Laevateinn until Relic Novus because you can't afford to lost the 40+ Accuracy by equipping the High Allagan Staff or Relic Animus. You basically have to get really lucky on RNG and hope nobody else needs the staff too, or really lucky with RNG many times in a row.

The RNG aspect of the Atma and Materia phases are what most people find annoying to be honest. There is no skill involved in any part of the quest, just luck in two phases. The Animus phase isn't too bad since it just takes time; you have a clear progression and you know when you will be done. The RNG stuff with the Atma and Novus phases are what people really don't like.

Also the Materia phase has filled the dungeons with bots and Spiritbonders which makes getting anything done now fucking impossible. People are having to form statics and groups just to be able to do a daily dungeon run for Soldiery Tomes now. You can't get a random just in case it's someone botting or spiritbonding at ANY level in the Duty Finder. It is that bad now. I have to kick on average 6-7 Botters and more Spiritbonders I can count from Expert Roulette runs, Leviathan Ex farms and T1-5 farms on a daily basis. It is that bad.

I really do hope that change the drop rates for Atma at some point so unlucky people can catch up. I farm for an average of 2 hours a day and I'm still a 4/12. My last Atma drop was in early May.

Clearing all of the Hard Mode Primals to get my Stardust Rod Zenith? That is a challenge and I felt a massive sense of accomplishment from that.

Clearing all of the Extreme Mode Primals to get my Elder Staff, Ancient Buckler and Dual Hakken? Each time it felt like a challenging quest, even with Echo those fights will punish you if you aren't to to snuff. Each weapons I earned, I felt I earned it.

Beating Twintania and getting my Allagan Book for SMN? I didn't get my BLM weapon but holy crap I was excited and felt it was massive.

Seeing that first Unidentified Allagan Tomestone drop? That was massive, I didn't win it but I was so happy for my guildmate when she won it because it damn well felt like we earned it. T7 is hell when you are still learning it.

Seeing an Atma drop? I feel nothing. No pride, no excitement. Nothing. All I feel is a sense of relief that you put it behind you. If you've ever been through a part of your lie that was hell and finally put it behind you? That is the only thing I feel, if anything. When friends get an Atma I congratulate them because I'm happy they will finally put this hell behind them.

[Icemage]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

Random drops are awful game design, especially when they're mega-rare. They disrespect the time spent, they make the experience un-even between different players looking for the same thing, and they're frankly not fun.

I'd say I was surprised that Square-Enix hasn't learned this lesson, but I'm actually not surprised in the slightest. Like many of their Japanese contemporaries in the gaming industry, the developers at Square-Enix cling desperately to old gaming tropes for no other reason beyond "well it always worked that way before so people must like it!", instead of really stopping to think about how it impacts the player experience.

It's not like we haven't seen ample examples of this in not just FFXIV, but most of the recent FF games. See: Zodiac Spear drop in FFXII, almost every single NM drop in FFXI, stupid material drops in FFXIII, etc.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

Random drops are awful game design, especially when they're mega-rare. They disrespect the time spent, they make the experience un-even between different players looking for the same thing, and they're frankly not fun.

I'd say I was surprised that Square-Enix hasn't learned this lesson, but I'm actually not surprised in the slightest. Like many of their Japanese contemporaries in the gaming industry, the developers at Square-Enix cling desperately to old gaming tropes for no other reason beyond "well it always worked that way before so people must like it!", instead of really stopping to think about how it impacts the player experience.

It's not like we haven't seen ample examples of this in not just FFXIV, but most of the recent FF games. See: Zodiac Spear drop in FFXII, almost every single NM drop in FFXI, stupid material drops in FFXIII, etc.


Icemage

Yeah I was ready to break my PS3 at some points trying to get all the gil/dark matter I needed for the platinum.

I can't help but feel SE - hell JP developers in general really, could do with some massive restructuring. They're giving up on the older aspects of their games we actually like (strong emphasis on story etc.) and doubling down on the worst (RNG, enemies with ridiculously over-powered attacks etc.)


FW actually summed up how I felt for a while in XIV. Pretty much every content I cleared in XIV did feel like a genuine accomplishment, especially getting my 1st relic. But Atma was just such a grueling slog, and then when I got to the books only to see it was going to cost me over 12k myth tomes + a million annoying fetch quests (especially the weird FATE that are out in the middle of buttfuck nowhere that you generally end up having to solo which is IMPOSSIBLE) and all for a weapon that's inferior to Tidal Wave and Allagan/Mythic...

It felt like a kick in the balls, even more so when I considered doing this for more than 1 job. That's why I say 500 myth tops per book would have been acceptable. Look at the scope of the quest from the very beginning and what's required (and I will preface this by saying I have every relic. they aren't all Zenith, but I have them all.) Obtaining them is still somewhat lengthy, if a lot easier now thanks to gear progression compared to when ARR launched and especially compared to 1.23. Then you grind out the 900 myth to make it a Zenith. Then the nonsense of Atma (which I still think a good way of doing it would be +1% drop rate per fate if you don't get it so that eventually the odds increase. This way it still takes time, but it won't take forever just to get one.)

Then you gotta grind 14,500 myth for the 9 books + the objectives of each book all for a marginal increase in stats at best. Once you're past that, then you get yet ANOTHER GRIND for Alexandrite, plus money suddenly becomes a factor as well for materia melds and again, the Novus Weapons are still weaker than High Allagan and roughly on par with Mythics which again, are a lot less painful to obtain by comparison.


And this is where I lose my shit. It's like they are deliberately making these quests grindy and torturous just for the sake of doing so. At least in XI, the RME weapons were worth it by the end (though Delve took a rather big dump on that eventually, IIRC Matsui has recently added some patches to allow you to upgrade them further? I know you can reforge the armors but I thought they did something for the weapons as well?) whereas this is just plain abusive.

It's almost as though they want to drive people away from their game.

[Feba]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

Random drops are awful game design, especially when they're mega-rare.

I think we can have some randomness without completely borking things up. I mean, there's a major reason random drops are used; psychological conditioning. You say "500 points and you get the shiny item", and players will feel like they have to grind the points, and they know exactly when they will get the item. They might feel happy to get it, but it will lack the impact that getting that random drop you wanted would've had, even if the two took the same amount of work. Reinforcement/reward schedules work best when they're on variable timing.

For FFXI, just imagine the difference you had in feeling between when you got some important equip drop off an NM, and when you bought something expensive off the AH. I'm guessing you probably can't really even remember getting the AH item, but there are many NM drops you can remember.

There's definitely a problem, though, when bad luck or slim odds lead to what feels like an endless grind, especially in an MMO where a monster may only be available to fight every few hours, every day, or every week. Those fights turn to disappointment partially because you don't get the item you want, but also because you feel like you wasted that time; the alternate drops were usually bad or nonexistent. I think that's one of the big things, the "rarest" NM drop felt like the only reason you were there, and anything less was a total waste of your time and effort.

I think the best path is somewhere in the middle. Hearthstone is a good example of this--cards can be acquired as a reward for certain quests, or completing the Arena mode (the card rewarded is random); real money card purchases can only buy packs, not individual cards, and more importantly not specific cards. Every time you open a pack or get a card reward, you have zero control over what the result will be, and it could be very good or very bad.

However, there is a crafting mechanic, where you can convert cards into dust, and use the dust to build cards you want, rarer cards costing more dust. This essentially means that you get most of your cards randomly, but if you really need something to play the game well, you can ensure you get it. Cards dust for much less than they cost to build (around 1/4th to 1/8th) so you're not destroying and rebuilding your collection wily-nily, and if you want to build a full collection you are ultimately best off not dusting anything you don't already have the maximum number of copies of. However, it's an option you can use when you absolutely must have a card. It keeps the randomness and the excitement in opening packs, keeps the game from insta-rewarding people with the cash to spend, while also giving people an "out" to simply opening packs forever to keep up with the game.





Alternatively we go the EVE online route. All NMs are now on 6~9hr spawn timers, %100 drop, inside PVP zones. Last man standing gets to claim.

[Melody]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

What Atma Is

[Firewind]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

I like this one too:



Pretty much sums up all the forums after that announcement.

[Melody]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

Like Om nom said, you can't hate the guy, but...some of the things he does are kind of...yeah.

[Icemage]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

I think we can have some randomness without completely borking things up. I mean, there's a major reason random drops are used; psychological conditioning. You say "500 points and you get the shiny item", and players will feel like they have to grind the points, and they know exactly when they will get the item. They might feel happy to get it, but it will lack the impact that getting that random drop you wanted would've had, even if the two took the same amount of work. Reinforcement/reward schedules work best when they're on variable timing.

For FFXI, just imagine the difference you had in feeling between when you got some important equip drop off an NM, and when you bought something expensive off the AH. I'm guessing you probably can't really even remember getting the AH item, but there are many NM drops you can remember.

There's definitely a problem, though, when bad luck or slim odds lead to what feels like an endless grind, especially in an MMO where a monster may only be available to fight every few hours, every day, or every week. Those fights turn to disappointment partially because you don't get the item you want, but also because you feel like you wasted that time; the alternate drops were usually bad or nonexistent. I think that's one of the big things, the "rarest" NM drop felt like the only reason you were there, and anything less was a total waste of your time and effort.

I think the best path is somewhere in the middle. Hearthstone is a good example of this--cards can be acquired as a reward for certain quests, or completing the Arena mode (the card rewarded is random); real money card purchases can only buy packs, not individual cards, and more importantly not specific cards. Every time you open a pack or get a card reward, you have zero control over what the result will be, and it could be very good or very bad.

However, there is a crafting mechanic, where you can convert cards into dust, and use the dust to build cards you want, rarer cards costing more dust. This essentially means that you get most of your cards randomly, but if you really need something to play the game well, you can ensure you get it. Cards dust for much less than they cost to build (around 1/4th to 1/8th) so you're not destroying and rebuilding your collection wily-nily, and if you want to build a full collection you are ultimately best off not dusting anything you don't already have the maximum number of copies of. However, it's an option you can use when you absolutely must have a card. It keeps the randomness and the excitement in opening packs, keeps the game from insta-rewarding people with the cash to spend, while also giving people an "out" to simply opening packs forever to keep up with the game.

Alternatively we go the EVE online route. All NMs are now on 6~9hr spawn timers, %100 drop, inside PVP zones. Last man standing gets to claim.

Oh absolutely. But the way Fates/Atma are structured in FFXIV is basically the worst case scenario: hyper-rare drops for which there are no other alternatives, and you basically get nothing useful if you don't get them. That's what I mean when I say this sort of random drop disrespects your time. Good game design would reward you with something to make you feel like you're still making progress (like your Hearthstone example). Even FFXIII's enormously terrible random drops still had a sliver of good aspect to it: if nothing else you could buy Trapezohedrons with the money you made from killing endless turtles... Fate/Atma, on the other hand, has no other options.


Icemage

[Malacite]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

That's also why I liked the force-spawn NMs and Abyssea - there was still RNG to it, but it was to a much lesser degree (mostly anyway, even the weaknesses at least varied according to a specific list) than the usual content.

Farm dudes for pop item (which usually wasn't too horrible to get) then pop the NM and hope for the best. It helped that weaknesses made the battles interesting while also serving to greatly increase drop rates too.


Also traps were pretty easy to get, you just had to make Fang's Ultimate lance (only to level 1 and because it was the cheapest to do I think) and then you could dismantle it for 3 traps, netting you 2 for each lance you broke which took substantially less time and gil. It was the f'ing Dark Matter/Platinum Ingots that were just atrociously awful design. As for the Zodiak spear in 12, that was a pretty lame thing they did with that. Thankfully I have the guide so I know what chests not to open and I've managed to sneak into the area for the spear and run out before though it involved rotating my party and a lot of dying lol. Truth be told I barely made it in and out with the damn thing but it was worth the effort (really puts the game on easy mode).

Atma (and quests that involve spamming FATE in general) is just plain bad design. So are the 9 books IMO but because they go to a different extreme ala mythic weapons in FFXI. Again, don't mind lengthy quests provided there's some degree of challenge to them or sensible restrictions. For example, and I know some people would hate this, but I'd rather the book costs be much much lower with a limit of only being able to complete 1 or 2 before JP midnight because that way while it would by default have a minimum time to complete, it would feel less grindy.

I *hate* grinding for the myth, then grinding the mindless book objectives (and they really are brainless to the point of insulting) and then having to grind another goddamn 1500 myth, most likely by doing a lot of the crap I was just doing to finish the book. After a while it all just blurrs together in a very bad way. It's why even though I hated the timed spawns and VNMs for Empyrean Weapons I would honestly prefer that to the current Atma + Books + Materia Affixing bullshit.

At least you could do that together with friends with measurable progress and it wasn't just a constant nonstop grind. NM wasn't up/just killed it cool, move on to the next area and/or take a breather.

[Melody]

Re: Novus: This is how it's done.

That's also why I liked the force-spawn NMs and Abyssea - there was still RNG to it, but it was to a much lesser degree (mostly anyway, even the weaknesses at least varied according to a specific list) than the usual content.

Farm dudes for pop item (which usually wasn't too horrible to get) then pop the NM and hope for the best. It helped that weaknesses made the battles interesting while also serving to greatly increase drop rates too.


Also traps were pretty easy to get, you just had to make Fang's Ultimate lance (only to level 1 and because it was the cheapest to do I think) and then you could dismantle it for 3 traps, netting you 2 for each lance you broke which took substantially less time and gil. It was the f'ing Dark Matter/Platinum Ingots that were just atrociously awful design. As for the Zodiak spear in 12, that was a pretty lame thing they did with that. Thankfully I have the guide so I know what chests not to open and I've managed to sneak into the area for the spear and run out before though it involved rotating my party and a lot of dying lol. Truth be told I barely made it in and out with the damn thing but it was worth the effort (really puts the game on easy mode).

Atma (and quests that involve spamming FATE in general) is just plain bad design. So are the 9 books IMO but because they go to a different extreme ala mythic weapons in FFXI. Again, don't mind lengthy quests provided there's some degree of challenge to them or sensible restrictions. For example, and I know some people would hate this, but I'd rather the book costs be much much lower with a limit of only being able to complete 1 or 2 before JP midnight because that way while it would by default have a minimum time to complete, it would feel less grindy.

I *hate* grinding for the myth, then grinding the mindless book objectives (and they really are brainless to the point of insulting) and then having to grind another goddamn 1500 myth, most likely by doing a lot of the crap I was just doing to finish the book. After a while it all just blurrs together in a very bad way. It's why even though I hated the timed spawns and VNMs for Empyrean Weapons I would honestly prefer that to the current Atma + Books + Materia Affixing bullshit.

At least you could do that together with friends with measurable progress and it wasn't just a constant nonstop grind. NM wasn't up/just killed it cool, move on to the next area and/or take a breather.

Wouldn't be Final Fantasy if the objective wasn't put up behind a mandatory grindwall. Enjoy it. Because they will eventually nerf Atma's and the like and then you will be back here bitching about it later. So enjoy the feeling of accomplishment while it last.