FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

[Wise Donkey]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

Get off your pedestal

Pot, meet kettle. VOIP shouldn't be a requirement to simply enjoy the game. There are sufficient ways to communicate in a DF party to avoid disaster. And the VIOP is there for static groups that want to use it.

[Nandito]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

I'm not saying control classes are overrated, I'm saying the sleep strategy is overrated for all the beta dungeons. Also, there is no danger of a loose mob as long as Marauders use overpower frequently enough and its AOE is wide enough to keep a group of enemies under control. a tank can also move up to distant enemies and add them to the aggro net. CNJs won't run out of MP if they use their resources effectively, and they should have Ethers just in case. Of course if a tank pulls more than one group of enemies at a time, that is sloppy and healer has a right to place the blame on tank. But get off your high elitist bird, Firewind, there is more than one way to succeed in these battles, and there are examples that prove it among the beta community's experiences. When the higher level content brings more challenging things, people will adapt, but flexibility is not a bad thing when it works. FFXIV ARR isn't nearly as demanding as FFXI to determine victory, and that's a good thing.

... Who are you and what have you done with J9?

[jenova_9]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

... Who are you and what have you done with J9?

Oh sorry, mew. When I get really miffed, the mittens are off. I guess it's kind of like a Dark Mew mode when I get serious.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

Stopped reading here. We only "did by on party chat just fine" because we had no choice as the technology was not there at the time.

"No choice"?

Erm, I'm pretty sure some people have been using various IP based group chat systems for years and years. I had something installed, too, but never got a mic for it. Eventually, ended up just not running the program after a month because of too many drunk/annoying people.

So, yeah, it was pretty much a choice, for me.

Plus, AFAIK, there's no voice chat in FFXIV either? Correct me if I'm wrong, but text in party chat seems like the universal way to communicate in an online FF game.

People would ignore text chat as often as they would today.

And, they also ignore voice, too. (Or turn it off, like I did.)

It should be no surprise, really; teachers, parents, and old managers always complain that the kids don't listen.

Get off your pedestal

Whoa! Seriously? It's a pedestal already for being able to type "awake" or "opps sleep that" in chat? And able to function with such chat text?

What do you call people who go as far as to employ proper capitalization and punctuation in chat, then?!

and realise that frankly, there is no excuse for an organised group of any kind to not take advantage of the fact that we can have instant communication via VOIP that is completely reliable compared to how it was in FFXI's early days.

1. The only 'excuse' I need is: Don't want it, don't need it (so far). But, if you need another reason:

2. Text is nearly universal to all FFXI(V) players, in the sense that one doesn't have to worry about:
a. hearing impaired members,
b. people playing music too loud,
c. console users who don't have a computer handy/near by, or
d. people who prefer not to have random obscenities coming out of speakers, etc.

The only caveat is the dyslexic readers; everyone else who plays FFXI(V) probably have reasonably functional eyes.

* * *

BTW, I'm not advocating against voice chat; I just don't want to participate in it. It has worked out OK so far, and I've never been with a "must use voice chat" group. Yet.

(Also, I do admit a certain bias against people who don't like reading. Though, that's mostly against people who insist on dubbed anime because they can't be bothered with reading subtitles.)

* * *

My sister played FFXI on PS2 (and didn't have a laptop for much of that period), so I had a very strong incentive to stay away from "must use voice chat" group beyond my dislike for the stuff.

I mean, why should I bother with any group which refuses to allow my sister to join?

[Aeni]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

I'm not saying control classes are overrated, I'm saying the sleep strategy is overrated for all the beta dungeons. Also, there is no danger of a loose mob as long as Marauders use overpower frequently enough and its AOE is wide enough to keep a group of enemies under control.

Sleep the back row (mages) and that's the strategy that will help 99% of the time. I did notice that in beta, they nerfed Tam Tara into the ground (for those of you that weren't around in Alpha, there were usually one group in TTD that was absolute hell to pull, because there was 1 enemy tank, 2 enemy dps, 2 enemy mages and 1 healer, and there weren't THM, either ... usually groups wiped on this pull and on the final boss) However, being able to effectively pull and deal with a group of mob provides a more pleasant experience for all. Trust me, you'd want to have as many "easy runs" as possible to offset the inevitable "utter fucking fail" runs. Those tend to give the most gray hairs and push people to wanting to quit the game.

[Malacite]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

Yeah there's some really stupid people out there...

[Firewind]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

A series of logical fallacies.

Okay sorry if this sounds hostile but come on, your argument is terrible.

You keep saying that written text universal yet pictographs and simply speaking has been around for even longer... See? I can base an argument on a logical fallacy too.

You are however, assuming that everyone using VOIP is going to be cursing or playing loud music... Another poor argument that can easily be fixed by using Teamspeak, Ventrillo, Mumble or even Skype. Someone being abusive or won't stop playing music? Kick them from the chat and ban/block them, than warn the rest of the server about a player. All four of the programmes I listed have an option to record everything that is being said so it is very easy to pull up hard evidence of an abusive player.

Not having a mic is rarely an issue. Plenty of guilds and organised groups don't care if you can't speak as long as you can listen to explanations and listen to things that are called out. You are acting like having VOIP means that people never use text chat which I assure you is NOT true. Sit in with my SWTOR guild at some point and we will show you that mixed groups work perfectly fine in endgame. We regularly run with someone who can only communicate through text chat because he doesn't want to wake up his family by talking too loudly. We've had times where peoples headsets have gone out and ran content with one or two people unable to hear, it all comes down to being able to adapt. The fact that you refuse to adapt because "oooooooh nooooooo I don't want voooooooooice!" does make it difficult to read your post as anything other than whining about VOIP. Plus forcing an entire group of other people to play the way that you want to play is pretty selfish. Having to explain everything in voice and type everything out in text because you're too selfish to do what the part is asking and hop on to their VoIP server just drags on events longer then they need to.

Honestly the only two viable arguments you posted are about hearing impaired people and console players. The both are readily countered by the fact that if they just explain why they cannot use VOIP, then any group worth being part of can easily accommodate that, and adapt to the fact that there is going to be at least one person that will need text alert. Too loud music and obscenities are easily countered by simply not bringing those idiots to events (if they are in your guild) or simply banning them from the VOIP server (if they are some PUG fare).

Plus there is one very important fact: guilds that use VOIP tend to just use it for events. The ones that require you to be on it all the time...I can count the number I have ran into playing MMOs for 9 years on one hand. The majority of VOIP servers are actually pretty quiet unless there is some kind of event going on. Sometimes you have people that use it just to chat or hang out but they are mostly quiet because everyone likes to sit down alone sometimes.

Yes there will always be idiots out there. They is why you don't group with them. You find a group of people you like and you know, play with them. But I see these same anti-voice arguments coming up constantly and honestly, people just need to stop beating the horse that has long been turned into dog food and stop with that elitism.

I'd also like to point out something that I have posted before: I am indeed dyslexic but that doesn't slow me down much on games where I can adjust the colour, font and size of the text. It's also why serif fonts drive me nuts (as I can't recognise the shape of letters very well if something is in a serif font), and anything typed in yellow I simply can't read. I get along with text and VOIP fine, if the group isn't using that and the MMO uses a font/size I can't read, and it can't be changed I simply explain what's going on. Plus VOIP works fine in Europe as well where there is no guarantee that everyone even speaks the same language. I have been in one raid in (I think it was) FFXI where we would occasionally had to have instructions called out to the WHM in Italian to fit in one of the members since Italian isn't supported by auto-translate (very few languages are, and as I have pointed out in other threads, make no sense at all in languages not called English), so we just had his English speaking friend call out the important things on TeamSpeak. It is all about how you adapt to the situation when it comes to groups.

[Aeni]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

I feel like this thread is missing something ...

...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

You keep saying that written text universal yet pictographs and simply speaking has been around for even longer... See? I can base an argument on a logical fallacy too.

Universal to FFXI and FFXIV--and I've been specific about that.

"[T]ext in party chat seems like the universal way to communicate in an online FF game."

"Text is nearly universal to all FFXI(V) players."

It's not nice to ignore the context, selectively leave out words, completely distorts what someone writes, then accuse him of "logical fallacy."

You are however, assuming that everyone using VOIP is going to be cursing or playing loud music...

Where did I assume everyone would do this?

Another poor argument that can easily be fixed by using Teamspeak, Ventrillo, Mumble or even Skype. Someone being abusive or won't stop playing music? Kick them from the chat and ban/block them, than warn the rest of the server about a player. All four of the programmes I listed have an option to record everything that is being said so it is very easy to pull up hard evidence of an abusive player.

Good to know.

... That my fellow gamers can record everything I say if I join group voice chat. orz

Not having a mic is rarely an issue.

Not having a mic isn't an issue per se, I was qualifying my experience with group voice chat.

I try to make my claims precise, and give context. "Didn't have mic" was a part of my context when I claimed to have some experience with group voice chat.

You are acting like having VOIP means that people never use text chat which I assure you is NOT true.

Another assumption I've never made.

Keep in mind, I was listening on voice group chat, but didn't have a mic. That means, OF COURSE the group was using a mixture of voice and text chat. How else could have it functioned?

Why would I claim something that's contrary to my personal experience?

Plus forcing an entire group of other people to play the way that you want to play is pretty selfish.

I agree with this--in fact, that's why I objected to your statement that there's "no excuse" not to use VOIP group chat.

You're the one who wants everyone to use VOIP, no?

I'm perfectly fine with groups who want to use group voice chat, even demand it. I do not need to join them.

Honestly the only two viable arguments you posted are about hearing impaired people and console players. The both are readily countered by the fact that if they just explain why they cannot use VOIP, then any group worth being part of can easily accommodate that, and adapt to the fact that there is going to be at least one person that will need text alert.

If you are willing to accommodate people who have reasons to not use voice chat, then why say there's "no excuse" not to have VOIP?

And, if you're willing go a step further to say that it's OK for some groups to be primary text chat instead of voice chat, then I would have no issue with your stance.

As I've said, I'm fine with voice chat, as long as it's not forced onto me or demanded of everyone.

I am indeed dyslexic

And, if I know someone is severely dyslexic in my group, I'd go buy a mic.

So far, though, I've not encountered one.


* * *

Plus VOIP works fine in Europe as well where there is no guarantee that everyone even speaks the same language.

Heh. That amused me; I've never lived in a place where everyone around used the same primary language.

[Aeni]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

Heh. That amused me; I've never lived in a place where everyone around used the same primary language.

According to Fox News, if you live in America, you better speak English, damn it, or you go back on the first flight out of this country.

[Firewind]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

I feel like this thread is missing something ...

...

After reading Itazura's posts, maybe it needs more of these?

[Melody]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

No idea what's being said here, but that dungeon reminds me of Norg and I hate Norg.