FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

[Malacite]

[jenova_9]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

Part 1 video? Oh do you think they might show too much of the later dungeons before release, mew? That might kind of interfere with the exploration aspect of discovering these things as we progress, but I guess it does provide more promotional resources.

[Aeni]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

Part 1 video? Oh do you think they might show too much of the later dungeons before release, mew? That might kind of interfere with the exploration aspect of discovering these things as we progress, but I guess it does provide more promotional resources.

Are you daft? Open Beta is going to be out soon (NDA will be lifted) and plenty of people are going to upload Youtube videos for most of the accessible dungeons. SE will pre-empt them with better graphics and a cleaner look. Most people are going to upload their vidcaps with random players and a lot of them aren't very good (what is up with all these piss poor tanks? I know the queue times are low for them, but seriously, we should be able to boot them out if they perform horridly)

[jenova_9]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

I think people should be more flexible with tanks, mew. Because when I used tank class, one person was acting like I was tanking terribly, yet none of us wiped at all. But throughout the dungeon they were all like "You should let us sleep this and this so healer doesn't have to heal as much." I mean really, mew. Being a bad tank is one thing, but being Cookie Cutter how to complete a stage and beat mobs is just as bad, it leads to underrating party members that are protecting the party and tanks deserve more respect because they place more on the line than the mages. If they get KOed, then they can start complaining (which is still immature), but some people can be such drama queens, mew. "oh at level 50 you can't play like this." Well this isn't level 50 dungeon, silly, and I completed Haukke Manor SEVERAL TIMES with all kinds of members without mobs being sleeped by mage. You have regen between battles, you aren't the one getting hit (or hit too much), I'm doing most of the work& we won, mew!

[Aeni]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

I think people should be more flexible with tanks, mew. Because when I used tank class, one person was acting like I was tanking terribly, yet none of us wiped at all. But throughout the dungeon they were all like "You should let us sleep this and this so healer doesn't have to heal as much." I mean really, mew. Being a bad tank is one thing, but being Cookie Cutter how to complete a stage and beat mobs is just as bad, it leads to underrating party members that are protecting the party and tanks deserve more respect because they place more on the line than the mages. If they get KOed, then they can start complaining (which is still immature), but some people can be such drama queens, mew. "oh at level 50 you can't play like this." Well this isn't level 50 dungeon, silly, and I completed Haukke Manor SEVERAL TIMES with all kinds of members without mobs being sleeped by mage. You have regen between battles, you aren't the one getting hit (or hit too much), I'm doing most of the work& we won, mew!

I have had tanks that let mobs kill healer (me) and don't even bother using taunt or their aoe enmity abilities. I've had to wait till tank drop to 20% health to start healing or I would guarantee rip aggro off him. I've also had tanks that would hit a sleeping mob even if the main mob isn't dead. Those tend to have higher enmity on the THMs that slept it and when the tank don't taunt, THM will die.

If you're tanking and not letting healers get hit or killed, then you're doing your job. If you aren't, then you need to stop playing a tank, or at least learn to play it better.

[jenova_9]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

ya but some people act like each set of fights has to be a flawless victory, mew. They have a heart attack if they get hit once.
Battles are not always so cleany safey for mages, so people shouldn't assume a tank is terrible if they lose aggro from time to time.

I had a healer that didn't even prioritize healing, I was KOed and had to run back to regroup with the party more than once, and then
when I asked about the heals, they were like "Oh ok I'll concentrate on healing more then." But you see, I didn't belittle them or
act negative about it, I just let them know about healing the tank should be priority, and the party can learn from there.
They were probably the type of CNJ that mixed a series of Stone and Aeros besides healing, but that's okay, they want to win
too so just letting them know about heals and stuff, the party can improve from there.

It's much better than that rude THM or CNJ member that just sat there watching and not helping in the fight because of some
dumb Sleeping mobs argument. Their stuck up and nitpicky attitude caused the front line members to wipe and more downtime
and bad mood to occur, so they made things worse not doing their role in the party.

And this was a party where none of the mages wiped once.
They might gotten hit once or twice, but they didn't even bother really seeing how much effort was put into
recapturing aggro and protecting the mages,

the tank's efforts is the primary reason why they still survived and the party succeeded.

[Aeni]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

ya but some people act like each set of fights has to be a flawless victory, mew.

You might be thinking that I'm siding with them but I am not. Those were terrible players you were playing with. However, if a mob is sleeping, you shouldn't touch it, and focus on the other ones that are up. That's the whole strategy behind crowd control. This isn't FFXI where you can pull one mob at a time. Just because there's 3 or 4 mobs in a pack, that doesn't mean you should be able to kill them all while they're all up. If you can keep one out of combat, then it makes it easier.

As for your comments regarding "flawless victory", there's a difference between clearing content so that everyone can be done with it and focus on other things (e.g., crafting, exploring, gathering) and just barely clearing the content within the time limit. I'm sure I am not in the minority of those that prefer the former scenario over the latter.

[Firewind]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

I've had so many tanks and DDs wake sleeping mobs that I don't even bother with it anymore. I actually listen how many parties I was in during the beta that respects CC and it ended up at 9 parties out of 53 that actually did, even when I asked people not to hit sleeping mobs.

Apparently "lul but more damage kills mobs faster so we can winz faster!!oneeleven". Those people drive me nuts. You go for "MOAR DAMAGE!" if you have an instance on farm status and not when you are clearing it for the first time.

[Wise Donkey]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

Communication and marking is key. I have woken few slept mobs simply because I did not realize in the heat of battle that they were slept. I partially attribute it to the fact that I am still learning the visual ques for what sleep looks like as a persistent effect.

[Firewind]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

You can tell if a mob is slept because it isn't even in the aggro list. That and it isn't even attacking you. Plus all marking does is gets idiots to attack that one first even if you say. "Don't hit the 1 symbol. I'm sleeping that mob" or, since I play with a lot of Germans too, "Greifen Sie nicht die 1-Symbol. Ich schlafe das Monster."

Sometimes I find it easier to just let the idiots get killed a few times until they finally get it.

[jenova_9]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

From my experience, Overpower is Marauder's best provoke ability, if they don't use it repeatedly from the beginning, the enemies will soon start aggroing the others. and the group of enemies always link. Maybe having the back enemies get slept, and waiting for the rest of the enemies to move closer, then using overpower, that can avoid affecting the slept enemies as well. but battles can get chaotic quickly and mages are more likely to get hit sleeping enemies first since that will attract the other enemies too, with little room to use Overpower without hitting the slept enemies in the process. Anyways Marauder with decent gear can tank any linked group of enemies. Sleeping the enemies is an overrated strategy, except for when enemies aggro the mages. 9 out of 10 cases sleep wasn't necessary to protect the rest of the party or prevent the tank from receiving too much damage at a time.

[Firewind]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

If you are calling CC an underrated strategy then wow... Sorry if I sound hostile here but I do not think that you have not played any MMO where it is necessary for progression like FFXI or SWTOR and even then, CC is still damn useful because Control classes are a force multiplier. One less mob, even in a farm status instance means less work for the Tanks, Healers AND DDs all at once. Sure there are times where you can just ignore a mob being woken up but that is still one more mobs to taunt. One more mob throwing damage out there. One more mob to kill at the one time.

Unless you are a coordinated group on voice comms, a loose mob is always a danger. On voice comms you can call out that you hit a sleeping mob by mistake and the THM or Off-Tank can deal with it. If you have nothing them that one loose mobs can make the difference between a win and a wipe, especially when it comes to controlling adds in endgame boss fights.

What I'm saying is, is it not always better to always lower your chances of losing? Even if that slept mob only needs to stay sleeping for a few seconds, that is a few seconds of breathing room for the party. In endgame, that tiny amount of detail can and will make the difference between victory and defeat.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

Unless you are a coordinated group on voice comms, a loose mob is always a danger. On voice comms you can call out that you hit a sleeping mob by mistake and the THM or Off-Tank can deal with it.

In FFXI, we were doing that by party chat just fine.

Though, in critical situation, most groups I been with used /assist macros (and /autotarget off) anyway, so waking adds by accident didn't happen all that often.

- - - Updated - - -

Sleeping the enemies is an overrated strategy, except for when enemies aggro the mages. 9 out of 10 cases sleep wasn't necessary to protect the rest of the party or prevent the tank from receiving too much damage at a time.

Taking damage (as a group) is only worthwhile if the group is outputting more damage for it.

If you can choose between taking 50 HP/sec damage from one monster or 100 HP/sec damage from two monsters without affecting how fast you kill, which would you chose? Unless the damage difference is negligible for the character HP (say you have 100,000 HP) and the healing power available, the rational answer should be pretty clear.

[Firewind]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

In FFXI, we were doing that by party chat just fine.

Stopped reading here. We only "did by on party chat just fine" because we had no choice as the technology was not there at the time. People would ignore text chat as often as they would today. Get off your pedestal and realise that frankly, there is no excuse for an organised group of any kind to not take advantage of the fact that we can have instant communication via VOIP that is completely reliable compared to how it was in FFXI's early days.

[jenova_9]

Re: FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn - Dungeon Crawl, Part 1

I'm not saying control classes are overrated, I'm saying the sleep strategy is overrated for all the beta dungeons. Also, there is no danger of a loose mob as long as Marauders use overpower frequently enough and its AOE is wide enough to keep a group of enemies under control. a tank can also move up to distant enemies and add them to the aggro net. CNJs won't run out of MP if they use their resources effectively, and they should have Ethers just in case. Of course if a tank pulls more than one group of enemies at a time, that is sloppy and healer has a right to place the blame on tank. But get off your high elitist bird, Firewind, there is more than one way to succeed in these battles, and there are examples that prove it among the beta community's experiences. When the higher level content brings more challenging things, people will adapt, but flexibility is not a bad thing when it works. FFXIV ARR isn't nearly as demanding as FFXI to determine victory, and that's a good thing.