Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

it's staggering how many people on the NA general discussion sincerely wishes FFXIV to be FFXI-2 instead. I'm not talking about post-Abyssea or current FFXI, I'm talking about 2003~2005 FFXI; people legimately want EXP loss, forced exp grouping, slower combat, and what not.

TL;DR version of reply:

Don't be surprised at people wanting FFXI 2.0; as 'un-modern' as it was, FFXI's exp loss, group orientated content, and slower paced battles had their good points. Generally speaking, those were design/implementation attempts to make battles more meaningful; whether you buy that or not is up to you.

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Nostalgia can take most of the blame, but:

1. FFXI was reasonably successful (even in the years specified), so wanting FFXI 2.0 (i.e. an improved version of FFXI) is reasonably, er, reasonable.

2. Durability loss and exp loss are not that dissimilar if one thinks about it; in a very real sense, both experience points and gil are earned from the time played. But, exp loss can trigger that dreaded deleveling, which makes combat feel more dangerous--and make it feel that more is at stake. Think of it as: "I want my (combat) experience in-game to mean something."

If left up to the players, they'd probably vote out both exp loss and durability loss, but I think SE has a legitimate design goal here, just implemented differently in FFXI and FFXIV.


3. As for "forced exp grouping," technically it was never forced (at NA release?), just highly encouraged. (BST to 75, then xxx/BST for the rest of the jobs early on, then there's /DNC for melee types later.) Still, many of people learned how to function in a group by participating in exp parties.

They may also be pining for the "Skillchain + Magic Burst vs. IT monster" mode of exp'ing. (That was actually pretty fun, no?) Some people liked that sense of group work--while others complain "Why can't I just WS when I want to?!", of course.

Then there's the whole philosophical debate of "If I'm just playing by myself, is it still a 'Massively Multiplayer Online RPG"?


4. Want slower combat? Guilty as charged.

Personally, I want low level combats to be slower paced, then get progressively busier (but not always shorter) as we level. A number of people do not feel faster combat is necessarily more interesting, that's all. Plus, it's always nicer to people new to this kind of games to not make things too busy in early battles.

By Lv.75+ in FFXI, it can get pretty hectic on PLD/NIN between Flash/Cure/Utsusemi x2/abilities/zillion gear switches. For me, that was sufficient. I had expected that slow(er) progression in FFXIV, so I was a bit surprised (and dismayed) at how timer/button spam heavy it is at low levels.

I also don't like the "button rotation as combat" style of playing. Not that there weren't timer based rotations (like Flash) in FFXI, but Utsusemi for example requires situational awareness. (e.g. Incoming multi-hit attack? Start casting Ichi and get ready to cancel Ni if that's on right now.) Having most abilities all on a single, shared timer also feels really weird, truth be told.

While surely FFXIV combat will become more involved as I level, right now as a soloing lowbie, I miss the good ol' TP building for WS, and deciding whether I should rest for HP, or pop a milk and keep TP. Currently, it seems like as long as I survive a battle, it doesn't matter how much resources (HP/MP/TP) I used. That, too, makes my battles a little less meaningful.


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I don't dislike FFXIV as much as this post may make it sound; it's just similar enough to make me wistful for the old FFXI, that's all. (Well, and it's a bit off putting that a lot of the game reminds of Rift more than FFXI.)

In fact, it's rather the opposite; it's really nice seeing my Mithra come to life again, with a good tan and bushy tail this time.

[Hayde]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

@ItazuraNhomango: All your points are valid, though I disagree with some of your viewpoints (I think a lot of it is nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses. There are actually private FFXI servers--not going to list them for obvious reasons, and I think most people who give that a go for more than a month will probably find it not suitable for their tastes today). That being said, I don't want to get into that here or we'll be having a heated debated for pages to come.

The issue here is we're one day from July. The game officially launches August 27th--supposedly early access is a week before that, and then open beta before that--so realistically if you consider that open beta is more or less 'semi-retail' for most developers these days, we're about a month from 'soft launch'. Systematically, FFXI was unique in its own right and that's why the combat system worked for the game; looking at the game now...if you told them, "Okay make it like classic XI"; where would they even begin?

They would need to get rid of quick methods of travel, increase land mass for the sole reason of making 'exp camps', do away with guildhests, leves, and instanced dungeons. Fates would need to be converted lottery NM camping, and I don't even know how on earth they are going to work the current battle system around. I guess the easiest way would be increase the cool downs on every ability, and TP would start from 0.

I'm just using a quick example here, but my point is there's absolutely no way they can completely revamp the core of their game around in 4-5 weeks. It's even questionable on whether they would be able to accomplish that in 6 months. Although 1.0 was technically abysmal, it was still a fast paced game compared to FFXI. Keeping in mind with all those people who paid $40~70 for their 1.0 copies, on top of anyone who has now preordered the game after playing beta--do you realize how much of a slap to the face it would be if they suddenly went, "Hey guys--200 people liked a post on general forums about making the game into FFXI 2.0, so we're going to just do that!".

It's just not possible, nor reasonable.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

Oh, I never said "FFXI 2.0" is a reasonable request at the moment, just it's reasonable to expect people to ask for it--now, back in beta 2, beta 1, alpha..., FFXIV 1.0, etc.

You also added a lot of other things, while I addressed only items listed in the previous post. I'm not sure if there's a significant number of people demanding the land kings style of NM with high demand drops to be returned, either; no one can be that addled by nostalgia.

[Hayde]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

Oh, I never said "FFXI 2.0" is a reasonable request at the moment, just it's reasonable to expect people to ask for it--now, back in beta 2, beta 1, alpha..., FFXIV 1.0, etc.

You also added a lot of other things, while I addressed only items listed in the previous post. I'm not sure if there's a significant number of people demanding the land kings style of NM with high demand drops to be returned, either; no one can be that addled by nostalgia.

No, when I mentioned people wanted FFXI--I mean they want every masochistic element associated with the vanilla days. It's not hard to find a topic in the general discussion if you choose to search--though I warn that if you even spend 5 minutes on that particular section of the forums you'll just be absolutely amazed at how negative people can be.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

No, when I mentioned people wanted FFXI--I mean they want every masochistic element associated with the vanilla days.

Er, you're probably exaggerating a bit. And, probably not entirely your own fault.

Posters of any forum are self-selected members of the community, and usually not representative of the whole--or even the segment they purport to represent. Those FFXI 2.0 boosters, in particular, are incredulous that SE isn't following up the wonderful FFXI with a 2.0 version, so they post to express such obvious thing and their strong feelings about it. You're probably incredulous that there are actually people who wanted the very broken FFXI-the-initial-newbie-killer to return, and so became rightfully alarmed and post about it here.

I think the truth is FFXI couldn't have been that bad--it did get to 700k subscriptions or so at one point, did it not? And WoW didn't manage to kill it, though it did drop it to 500k or so. I also think most folks asking for FFXI 2.0 just wanted that feeling of first love--erm, first MMORPG, back. Calling FFXI 2.0'ers masochistic won't really help you or anyone else understand what elements of FFXI made them so appreciative of that experience, and it's not a bad thing if SE considers those points more carefully, IMO.

Well, I guess you don't really have to understand them/us. It's up to you, really; I'll settle for 'tolerate'. You know, nod your head, mumble something close to "ok ok take it easy", and back away slowly. That'll be good enough.

[Aeni]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

I absolutely loathed the progression system in FFXI for two simple reasons: (a) your choice in what class you wanted to play didn't matter as the game almost always dictated that tanks and healers would always be valued over all other roles and (b) the game punished those who didn't have as much time to devote to the game as others; ironic, given the warning you were faced with reminding you that you should prioritize your life over the game.

In any event, FFXIV 1.0 was a bastardized vision of what Tanaka-san wanted, which was "FFXI 2.0 but not really". Yoshi-P pretty much resuscitated the ideal vision of 1.0, namely that it is a different game, and dispelled any notion that this game would be FFXI 2.0 And I and many others are glad for it.

[Hayde]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

Er, you're probably exaggerating a bit. And, probably not entirely your own fault.

Posters of any forum are self-selected members of the community, and usually not representative of the whole--or even the segment they purport to represent. Those FFXI 2.0 boosters, in particular, are incredulous that SE isn't following up the wonderful FFXI with a 2.0 version, so they post to express such obvious thing and their strong feelings about it. You're probably incredulous that there are actually people who wanted the very broken FFXI-the-initial-newbie-killer to return, and so became rightfully alarmed and post about it here.

I think the truth is FFXI couldn't have been that bad--it did get to 700k subscriptions or so at one point, did it not? And WoW didn't manage to kill it, though it did drop it to 500k or so. I also think most folks asking for FFXI 2.0 just wanted that feeling of first love--erm, first MMORPG, back. Calling FFXI 2.0'ers masochistic won't really help you or anyone else understand what elements of FFXI made them so appreciative of that experience, and it's not a bad thing if SE considers those points more carefully, IMO.

Well, I guess you don't really have to understand them/us. It's up to you, really; I'll settle for 'tolerate'. You know, nod your head, mumble something close to "ok ok take it easy", and back away slowly. That'll be good enough.

You're correct, I don't have to understand you. You hardly post here these days--so while I'll sound like a complete jackass here--I'm safe to presume you'll probably fade away sooner or later. For what it's worth, there's only what--maybe a couple dozen people left here that post on a constant basis? It's a shame really; I've been looking for a nice FFXIV-oriented community, and FFXIAH was obviously not the place to go. BlueGartr isn't so bad, but I'm not completely fond of their uptight community either. While I'm grateful you're not completely anti-FFXI unlike some others, it's clear you and I don't see eye to eye.

If you look at my post history, you'll find that I'm one of the most neutral people on this forum, and I rarely get into it with anyone. Since I feel like I'm about to get a little edgy with you, I'll simply just drop the subject altogether. I don't want to steer this thread off-topic anyway. Regardless of what you or I think, it doesn't matter here or there; as I've said in my previous post...the game's less 2 months from launch and the boat's either going to sink with FFXIV or help SE cushion their recent failures (yes, they are in an financial downside).

FYI, don't presume I'm one of those people who played FFXI for 2 weeks and never touched it again; I was one of the first NA 75's on my origin server, and managed about half-way towards my Maat cap before quitting in 2007(ish). In 2010, I recreated a brand new character on Yygdrasil's-then server, Valefor--and releveled a character from scratch to 72+ before even touching Abyssea (not that I had the traverser stones anyway to go before then).

I treasure those memories from 2003~2007, and I have made plenty of friends that I still talk to, even today. But if you asked me if I would want to trek through that journey again, in 2013--that would be an easy "fuck no".

Finally, I should note; as today my FFXI is still occurring and I have every expansion and add-on purchased (though to be fair, I only reactivated the account in the recent months). Do not misunderstand my hate for FFXI. I simply do not believe a game structured in XI's early days can survive in today's market unless it is budgeted with a niche community in mind.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

Aeni:

Guess you weren't around when tanks weren't wanted and almost everything was about bashing stuff into small, broken pieces with WARs and MNKs. Healer? Abyssea WHM power tossed my RDM out of co-healer role. (Yeah, I liked playing healer on RDM. Odd, huh?)

Maybe my own experience was a bit different than most; I was with a relatively small LS for a long time, and at many occasions the most critical, missing role was DDs--I had PLD and RDM for tank, my sister had WHM, DNC, and RDM for healer, and we both had BRD for support.

What made tanks and healers so valuable in general wasn't just because progression demanded them, but because there weren't the right ratio of people wanting to play them to the number of people wanting to play DD. (Try to progress without DDs--not going to work! You need them, too, but they are easier to come by.)

Don't think this mismatch is limited to FFXI, either; it's probably common in MMORPGs. Likely, FFXIV will have this problem as well, but it will be easier to browbeat people into the right roles thanks to the armory system.

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I, too, hope FFXIV 2.0 works out well. A lot of my LS people from FFXI seem to be headed there--with me. heh.

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First off, sorry--I am trying to be more mellow and less offensive than I was before. My apologies for doing such a poor job.

You hardly post here these days [...] I'm safe to presume you'll probably fade away sooner or later.

Heh. Good point.

Do not misunderstand my hate for FFXI. I simply do not believe a game structured in XI's early days can survive in today's market unless it is budgeted with a niche community in mind.

I can agree with that last sentence easily.

Ultimately, though, SE probably wants for FFXIV both people who enjoyed FFXI and those who did not. And, those who are both...

[DakAttack]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

I appreciated the EXP penalty in FFXI. It made death meaningful. I dislike durability loss because it's complicating the simple idea of a death penalty.

FFXI 2.0 wouldn't have been terrible, if it was like FFXI pre-ToAU.

[Wise Donkey]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

I would relive my early years in FFXI in a second, but I think that era of MMO's has passed, for me as well as the overall gaming community. Memories being fond, I am probably romanticizing my first few years of FFXI in my head. That being said, I am overly excited about FFXIV 2.0. I am really enjoying what I am experiencing in the beta, and I like the call backs to FFXI - I like seeing things that I am familiar with, while playing a new game. The familiar creature models and names, familiar races and themes.

[Malacite]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

I appreciated the EXP penalty in FFXI. It made death meaningful. I dislike durability loss because it's complicating the simple idea of a death penalty.

FFXI 2.0 wouldn't have been terrible, if it was like FFXI pre-ToAU.

I think if they took XIV's combat mechanics (for the most part, like ditching skill ranks and equipment swapping etc.) but kept XI's version of the job system it could have been really good. It's not that XI was entirely bad, just too many aspects of it were overly complicated for nothing - the prime example being Gardening.

Personally I would LOVE to run around Vana'diel again in full HD running on Crystal Tools, but we all know that ain't happening.

[Aeni]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

I appreciated the EXP penalty in FFXI. It made death meaningful. I dislike durability loss because it's complicating the simple idea of a death penalty.

FFXI 2.0 wouldn't have been terrible, if it was like FFXI pre-ToAU.

The death penalty served its purpose for the time it was instituted for many games. However, that era has passed, and the target demographics is largely (a) older (b) have less time to budget for gaming (c) are lower on the skill level.

That is why Yoshi-P reiterated what Blizzard defined as MMO being a "Service Industry". You're either going to provide for the needs of MMO players or you're simply not going to be in business. Many companies have come out with various progression speed bumps, but in the end, all it serves is to widen the gap between casual players and hard core players. Remember that little fight from FFXI? Apparently the casuals won, because the rest of the industry followed suit, and World of Warcraft became a huge deal.

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Aeni:

Guess you weren't around when tanks weren't wanted and almost everything was about bashing stuff into small, broken pieces with WARs and MNKs. Healer? Abyssea WHM power tossed my RDM out of co-healer role. (Yeah, I liked playing healer on RDM. Odd, huh?)

I played until ToAU and by then I abandoned my Dark Knight and rolled a Red Mage and remade my character in the process. I thoroughly enjoyed what time I spent in the game, but I ultimately was dissatisfied with what I was forced to perform in order to advance progression and gain access to end game content. It just didn't seem right to me that a "ROLE PLAYING GAME" essentially mandated guidelines in order for you to enjoy content that you already paid for at retail. World of Warcraft spun that paradigm on its head and I never went back. And the industry hasn't for a while now, either.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

I would relive my early years in FFXI in a second, but I think that era of MMO's has passed, for me as well as the overall gaming community. Memories being fond, I am probably romanticizing my first few years of FFXI in my head.

This. In fact, just today I listened to some old FFXI music and I got the "gawd, I should get a trial account and run around" urge, but I am sure I would loathe the game as it is now.

That said, I sure would love to just go back in time to 2009ish and log into my character and just run around a few places I never wanted to forget, because I didn't do that when I quit. I quit on a whim and then when I got the urge to log in and give myself that last hurrah (so to speak), I found I'd been banned. I'm not sure if running around saying goodbye to the Sanctuary of Zi'Tah or killing an orc for the last time would really bring me the closure it seems I am looking for, but ... maybe?

Either way, FFXI will always have its hooks in my heart as my first MMO, and some of the friends and experiences I had will not be forgotten.

[Malacite]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

did you get caught up in the salvage bans or what?

[Icemage]

Re: Yoshi-P's Viewpoint: On MMOs and FFXIV

I absolutely loathed the progression system in FFXI for two simple reasons: (a) your choice in what class you wanted to play didn't matter as the game almost always dictated that tanks and healers would always be valued over all other roles and (b) the game punished those who didn't have as much time to devote to the game as others; ironic, given the warning you were faced with reminding you that you should prioritize your life over the game.

There were (and are) many, many flaws to FFXI's original design, and even its current incarnation.

First off, the reason why healers and tanks were so useful wasn't so much that they're necessarily better than the other classes, it's just that Square-Enix were too stupid to realize that making 15 classes with only two that could even vaguely heal at low level, and two that could even vaguely tank at low level made for extremely bad class balance. This left you with parties full of damage dealers and overworked tanks and healers, meaning lots of KOs, lots of frustration, and made infinitely worse by the fact that the vast majority of players simply weren't interested in playing healers or tanks. Even Paladins weren't particularly self-sufficient - they needed significant healing and support backup or the class simply didn't function at all.

Then they took the BEST combat feature of FFXI - skillchaining / magic bursting - and made it so difficult to understand and so tricky to execute without someone fouling things up that it took too much effort to train players to execute them properly. And even when you did get a group that could do it, the payoff effect, while sometimes worthwhile, wasn't strong enough to encourage people to get better and simply be patient in combat. To add insult to injury, you needed specific skillchain elements to even significantly hurt any specific enemy to exploit a weakness, without which you might as well not have bothered due to resistances. Exploited skillchains on weak elements should have done massive damage to non-NM enemies, and neutral elements should at least have done consistent damage. Instead you had occasional resistance even on exploited weaknesses, and almost guaranteed resistance on neutral element skillchains. This made party composition improbably difficult, particularly at low levels when weaponskill choices are fewer, but even at mid-levels you often had issues finding a viable skillchain combination because some of the component WS were simply too weak or inaccurate to be worthwhile.

In any event, FFXIV 1.0 was a bastardized vision of what Tanaka-san wanted, which was "FFXI 2.0 but not really". Yoshi-P pretty much resuscitated the ideal vision of 1.0, namely that it is a different game, and dispelled any notion that this game would be FFXI 2.0 And I and many others are glad for it.

I'm really glad to see FFXIV ARR go in a completely different direction than FFXI did. The world didn't really need FFXI 2.0 with a crappier UI, and these people who think otherwise can go die in a fire.


Icemage