New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

[Raydeus]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

So either they get tired of fast paced twitchy combat or they get bored to death by the slow paced and rigid combat. <_<;

That's just too sad J9. (T-T )

[Aeni]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

I like DW, mew, but that is a totally different subject. MMORPGs wouldn't be as popular or as inviting to many if combat was made for quick reflex players, mew. People would get fatigued faster from playing if the pacing was quicker and the button inputs were more actionish. ANd I'm sure FFXI still has more socializing and player interaction during battles / inbetween mobs, mew, at least a lot more than more button mashy MMOs .

World of Warcraft isn't just for quick reflex players but is more dynamic than FFXIV currently is (The original combat system in FFXIV was far more dynamic although "mashing" attack buttons isn't exactly a good way to design the game either)

The menu driven interaction in FFXI is not only clunky but it is also the most unappealing form of interaction there is. This is true of FFXIII/FFXIII-2, but they remedied it with a quicker pace of combat and a slightly better AI. However, console UI/system is a lousy way to handle a dynamic responsive system like you would hope an MMORPG would be. This isn't turn based or "pause" so you can go to the bathroom. MMORPG appeal is real time interaction with consequences for a lack of interaction from said player.

What J9 seems to advocate for is a single player experience, plain and simple. Social interaction? You can do that in-between events. But you have to understand that all of the dungeons (so far) in FFXIV are timed affairs which means you don't have the luxury of time to just "dick around" ... it's get in there, spank monsters, loot and then get the hell out of there. You can socialize in the city, in informal leve groups, etc but not in dungeons. And I hate to break it to you, but leveling a class in any MMORPG is about 10% of the entire game. The rest is in end game content, especially if you reach level cap and are uninterested in leveling anything else (or playing anything else for that matter) This is true with ANY MMORPG title.

[jenova_9]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

FFXI Online combat is totally fine. I guess some people are just too picky about mmorpg battle systems and don't care how more action oriented battle systems would affect the community. Hardly anyone socializes during battles in ORPGs like Phantasy Star Online or White Knight Chronicles compared to FFXI. ya those aren't complete mmorpgs, but the different in dynamic/faster battle systems does affect the rhythm and nature of it all. Also if things got more dynamic/faster paced, it wouldn't be as popular because it wouldn't be accesible to more people without twitch reflexes.

[Armando]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

FFXI Online combat is totally fine.

It's mediocre at best, in large part because SE had no idea what they were doing and went in with an offline, console JRPG mentality (kind of understandable since this is their first MMO.) Melee combat is nothing but applying passive buffs. The difference between a Warrior, a Dark Knight and a Monk is that one pops Berserk, the other Souleater and the last pops Focus. They all stand there whaling on the mob doing very little else until TP is full. Combat got faster in the high levels post-ToAU, but only because of Haste and multi-hit weapon abuse, which did nothing but unbalance the game further without actually improving the quality of the combat. WS progression is terrible too - you go huge level spans without getting WS that are useful at all, and most WS are either strictly superior or inferior than the others. At any given moment only one WS will matter to you and by the time you get another one worth using you'll be sick to death of it.

But they could get away with it because people didn't sign up for FFXIO for the combat. Most probably did it out of love for the franchise, and a small handful probably did it because they had friends playing it or they heard it had a good story.

Also if things got more dynamic/faster paced, it wouldn't be as popular because it wouldn't be accesible to more people without twitch reflexes.

Again, World of Warcraft (and every fighting game, RTS and DotA clone ever.) Also, "twitch reflexes" is not a thing you have or don't have. You get it through practice and being good at one twitch game does not make you good at another twitch game.

[Aeni]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

Me thinks this isn't going to go anywhere with J9 ... it seems that there is a particular kind of game that J9 wants to see but projecting it with any game he/she sees as a potential interest.

And anyone that think the combat system in FFXI was "good" needs to get their head examined. Maybe it was mildly interesting when it was first shown at E3 10 years ago, but if you think that it's "really" good and that other games need to emulate that system, I have a uranium enrichment facility to sell to you in Ethiopia.

[jenova_9]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

And anyone that think the combat system in FFXI was "good" needs to get their head examined. ....

You are being sincere like an innocent meatloaf, but please understand, mew, your opinions are not facts. Your thoughts of FFXI Online not being a good mmorpg battle system contradicts the many that still faithfully play FFXI, and even those that played it during the time ROTZ was the latest thing, COP was the latest thing, WOTG was the latest thing, etc. Even now it's still a functional and fun enough combat that the majority of people do not rant about the battle system. THe people against FFXI battle system style is like the ongoing debates of RPG fans arguing whether turn based, ATB, or real-time action RPG is a better battle system format for the genre. There is no single right answer. The mistake is where people expect FFXI and FFXIV to have combat like others. The style/system is just different from your tastes, that doesn't make it bad, mew.

[Armando]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

You are being sincere like an innocent meatloaf, but please understand, mew, your opinions are not facts.

No. You don't get to say this.

As for the rest of your post:
1) Some people don't realize how bad something is at the time. I watched a lot of really goddamned bad cartoons and played my fair share of bad games when I was younger.
2) A lot of people have invested so much time into the game, that it actually becomes the reason they don't leave. Look up the Sunk Cost Fallacy.
3) Again, almost no one plays MMOs for the combat system. If that was the #1 selling point, we'd all be playing offline RPGs.

[jenova_9]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

You are too self centered and misguided in believing your thoughts being the only right way to think, mew. 1) That is wrong to say, mew. You are too strict in your beliefs of what is right or wrong, which makes it sound self righteous to the extreme.
2) And they wouldn't have invested SO MUCH TIME if the combat system is bad to them.
3)"almost no one plays MMOs for the combat system." That is not entirely true. Combat makes up over 80% of the things done throughout their mmorpg career and combat is the primary way to access more levels+ content. "If that was the #1 selling point, we'd all be playing offline RPGs." That is not open minded logic. Plus very few offline rpgs play like FFXI, the only ones similiar are very few like FF12 and White Knight Chronicles, which lack the depth and customization and more thing FFXI combat system, job system, abilities, etc.all fit together.It really seems like some people are just too picky how they want mmorpg combat to play.

---------- Post added at 03:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 AM ----------

and it also feels like some people demand faster paced combat and more dynamic combat without a care in the world how that would negatively affect communities, parties, pacing, progression, accessibility, difficulty, lag, and more.

[Aeni]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

2) And they wouldn't have invested SO MUCH TIME if the combat system is bad to them.

/facepalm

Either you are deliberately rewriting history or you're being obnoxiously obtuse (or maybe your memory is really bad)

There were lots of criticism with regards to particular elements of the game. None of these were addressed. Square Enix either ignored these complaints or did not feel that they were important enough to address. What I was talking about with regards to the combat system was the issue of a menu driven system to access abilities as well as a significant latency issue in getting the commands processed. Macros circumvented this issue but the macro system itself was highly flawed and forced many players to seek 3rd party alternatives (such as Windower) Hence, why I called it the "PS2 Limitation". This is just a small part of the FFXI canon.

I'm warning you, J9. If you think this didn't happen, then I'm putting you on the ignore list, because that puts you on the same level as a Holocaust or climate change denier.

What happened eventually was that Square Enix made initial promises to "look into it" and "make improvements". For the time that I participated up until 2009, they never made good on those promises, and I wasn't the only player that noticed this. They strung these players along, either thinking we were all fools (and a vast majority of us were initially taking the bait) or that we'd grow tired and accept the fact that the improvements won't ever be implemented. This is how players made significant investments into their characters and what Armando alluded to with the "Sunk Cost Fallacy". Did you read this, J9? Or are you going to continually dodge and evade the facts presented in front of you?

and it also feels like some people demand faster paced combat and more dynamic combat without a care in the world how that would negatively affect communities, parties, pacing, progression, accessibility, difficulty, lag, and more.

Link to your evidence? You haven't provided a smidgen of evidence, factual or anecdotal, to support your stance.

[jenova_9]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

/facepalm

There were lots of criticism with regards to particular elements of the game. None of these were addressed. Square Enix either ignored these complaints or did not feel that they were important enough to address. What I was talking about with regards to the combat system was the issue of a menu driven system to access abilities as well as a significant latency issue in getting the commands processed. Macros circumvented this issue but the macro system itself was highly flawed and forced many players to seek 3rd party alternatives (such as Windower) Hence, why I called it the "PS2 Limitation". This is just a small part of the FFXI canon.

That just goes to show how spoiled some PC gamers are with their fussy preferences and nitpicking.

Even during the times I played FFXI when my PS2 still worked, NO ONE in all the parties, town chats, or anywhere was there a single person that criticized the battle system. Yes, its functionality isn't flawless, but neither are million sellers with combat systems like God of War 3. FFXI lasted this long with the battle system it has and people wouldn't bother with it if they really disliked the battle system.

There wouldn't be any level 75+ players if the battle system was so "bad" or "unfun". There are people who even LOOK FORWARD to fighting mobs in FFXI , I myself enjoyed battles in FFXI. if you don't see the positive side of the battle system, then you are just obsessed with your own thoughts and the minority that think like you. Because if the battle system was such a "problem", the majority (including Japan) would have quit a long time ago.

I'm warning you, J9. If you think this didn't happen, then I'm putting you on the ignore list, because that puts you on the same level as a Holocaust or climate change denier.

You are just being too arrogant. And it's unfair you would rate me on the same category as holocaust/climate change denier (when I believe the holocaust happened, and climate change is happening too). Now that is just plain ignorant, self-righteous, and bitter of you to say something like that. People like you only believe your opinions are correct and everyone else is wrong. No one can reason with grouchy self-entitled pessimistic people like that.

What happened eventually was that Square Enix made initial promises to "look into it" and "make improvements". For the time that I participated up until 2009, they never made good on those promises, and I wasn't the only player that noticed this. They strung these players along, either thinking we were all fools (and a vast majority of us were initially taking the bait) or that we'd grow tired and accept the fact that the improvements won't ever be implemented. This is how players made significant investments into their characters and what Armando alluded to with the "Sunk Cost Fallacy". Did you read this, J9? Or are you going to continually dodge and evade the facts presented in front of you?

Let's remind ourselves what we are arguing about. You don't like the battle system, and believe all people don't play FFXI Online for the combat. I disagree with that, and FFXI Online DEFINITELY would not have become as popular and prosperous as it has become if the combat wasn't fun and good enough.

If it was only about the loot, and the combat was bad, hardly anyone would play it, I wouldn't have played it.

So Square Enix said they would "improve" things when they didn't, I don't see FFXI subscribers leaving to the point where the servers would be closed. If it was so bad, people wouldn't have bothered touching the PVP either (when Linkshells I was in always did PVP and otehr combat related activities every single day and they don't complain about the combat at all. They enjoy it.)

Link to your evidence? You haven't provided a smidgen of evidence, factual or anecdotal, to support your stance.

I already made examples how more "dynamic" combat systems can affect communities. Putting genres aside, even PSO games don't have the same community and social atmosphere FFXI Online has. People just mash, spam and blaze through the mobs with rarely any interaction between players.
Even if it had a chat system like FFXI, people would chat less because the pacing and nature of combat just demands so much more input that there is a larger disconnection between players, and less incentives to communicate and form bonds and say cool things that adds more flavor to the party besides fighting. That's why things like PSO and even White Knight Chronicles are a "join and leave" type of thing which clouds up the mainstream with this divided community that other online genres suffer from and people just have this shooter mentality where everyone are just randoms that group for something then disperse.

DCUO is another example of despite having things real-time combat , suffers a lot from many social values which it lacks, no to mention many things like the chat system is so cumbersome that most people don't bother to communicate, but stretching beyond the battle system is also how solo based it turned out to be and many other factors, but even the combat itself, you can't even appreciate the efforts your party members are doing because it's just too chaotic and speedy and mashy that it's no where near the level of significance and atmosphere that FFXI Online battles bring.


People join and leave FFXI parties too, but the battle system and functionality, everything about it gives more incentive for communication, comraderie, strategy and good times.

Yes members can not communicate during battles, but battle systems like FFXI do enhance more social values that other orpg or mmorpgs Battle systems do not.
It also goes beyond the combat,
but overall, the menu driven, macro functioning, auto attack approach with FFXI Online is a good combat system that more families and friends can enjoy of all skill levels.

And the battle system is responsive enough that even skillchains are easy cheesy to perform correctly. And there is more weight to the battle atmosphere because it isn't just another combo mashing flow of spamming on mobs and moving on.

FFXI Online has a rhythm of combat and functions that really is great and entertaining.

It's disrespectful for people to say things like "Well FFXI and FFXIV should have combat more like WoW and Guild Wars", that is like people saying Rainbow Six should play like Gears of War and Final Fantasy XII should play like Kingdom Hearts and Test Drive Unlimited should play like Ridge Racer. Even popular things like WoW are a bad example to mmorpgs in many ways because you can even see how much harm it does to the communities, calling characters "toons" and overall treating their experiences with it like some tool instead of something more. Not to say FFXI doesn't have its share casual desensitized people, but it even goes beyond how the battle system works and how it connects with the rest of the design.


I respect your preferences but I think you are simply playing the wrong mmorpgs if you prefer combat that functions and works differently.
You are just being too pushy towards an mmorpg that is not meant to play exactly like you want it to.

Only accepting an mmorpg to play like you want it to is a delusional stance in itself. Because the only way you will get an mmorpg that meets all your preferences is to make your own mmorpg.

There's always going to be something you will disagree with according to an mmorpg's design, combat, economy, etc.

I personally find things wrong with how Auction Houses, farming, etc. are handled and things like some weapons accuracy , but regardless, FFXI Online is a far better mmorpg than even veterans give it credit for, and the combat system and inner workings is a flavor (like any flavor ) where people will either like it or not.


Also, smoking is bad for your health and mind.

[Armando]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

That just goes to show how spoiled some PC gamers are with their fussy preferences and nitpicking.

We're not picky - you're just the raccoon of the video game industry. You'll eat anything even if it's garbage. It's all the same to you.

That is not open minded logic.

Stop it! If you keep going the irony will kill me.

[jenova_9]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

We're not picky - you're just the raccoon of the video game industry. You'll eat anything even if it's garbage. It's all the same to you.

See? You mix assumptions with lies. We just have different opinions and tastes, mew.

So for example, like if you happen to hate Chess, that makes it garbage? What kind of one-sided thinking is that? I mean really, the arguments is like someone expecting a Street Fighter to play like Guilty Gear. or Sonic to play like Mario or Final Fantasy Tactics to work like Disgaea.

[Armando]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

If you make a reasonable argument that Chess is garbage I will accept it even if I like Chess. You, on the other hand, are not capable of doing the same, nor do you make any reasonable arguments yourself.

[jenova_9]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

You completely ignored my reasoning!! >< It's like people that just demand stuff without factoring in the consequences and then they blame the developers if they apply the battle system how they want, but it ends up damaging the community, gameplay and atmosphere. Then those self-entitled whiners get bored anyway and move on. Ya I like stuff like Dynasty Warriors and even twitch action things like Bayonetta and PSO, but that flavor of combat just wouldn't be the best for FF mmorpgs. Dynamic combat would not work with atmospheric mmorpgs because it would drain people's energy and interest faster. Pressing buttons more times in a minute would feel more redundant than how combat works in FFXI. It works for smallre genres like action games and Orpgs because those are catered more towards short attention span players. Reinventing the wheel doesn't always help, because then you get shallow systems like FFXIII's and XIII-2's, that pale in comparison to even FFV and X-2.

[Aeni]

Re: New trailer video (fan made?) The Call of the Crystal!

That just goes to show how spoiled some PC gamers are with their fussy preferences and nitpicking.

And this goes to show how ignorant you are when it comes to forming a coherent and valid argument to represent your position on an issue. If you had said, "some gamers" rather than "PC gamers", you would have been taken seriously, but right now, it feels like I'm having a debate with some console/FFXI fanboi w/ no expectations of ever reaching some kind of consensus.

Even during the times I played FFXI when my PS2 still worked, NO ONE in all the parties, town chats, or anywhere was there a single person that criticized the battle system.

No one discusses these things in-game. If you log in to play the game, you're logging in to play the game, and not discuss or debate the merits of one issue or another. I don't log in to WoW to discuss politics or log in Lineage and discuss civil rights for gays and lesbians. That is what social media, forums and blogs are for.

Yes, its functionality isn't flawless, but neither are million sellers with combat systems like God of War 3. FFXI lasted this long with the battle system it has and people wouldn't bother with it if they really disliked the battle system.

There wouldn't be any level 75+ players if the battle system was so "bad" or "unfun". There are people who even LOOK FORWARD to fighting mobs in FFXI , I myself enjoyed battles in FFXI. if you don't see the positive side of the battle system, then you are just obsessed with your own thoughts and the minority that think like you.

Didn't you read a single thing I've posted before this? Or are you just inherently blind? I said, and I'll repeat this in caps, "PEOPLE WERE STRUNG ALONG WITH PROMISES". This is no different than an abusive husband who would, time and time again, promise his wife he would change and that he didn't want to see her leave him. While that is an extreme and flawed analogy, it illustrates the kind of psychology involved when you have a group of people, a reputable company, a game that takes in huge LIFE investments and LOTS and LOTS of trust involved.

Because if the battle system was such a "problem", the majority (including Japan) would have quit a long time ago.

A flawed argument that was debunked years ago on these very forums. To recap if you didn't pay attention: In Japan, used game sales also include games that require an account to play, so therefore MMORPGs are often resold from one player to another, where the account is transferred along. I'm not sure of the legality of this in Japan since I am not privy to their TOS/EULA (for the Japanese game client) but it's not an uncommon situation to find yourself talking to a complete total stranger (or getting the silent treatment) after your friend's account has been reactivated and then finding out that the account has been resold. This is not to be confused with RMT accounts (where an account was passed through an RMT company)

Let's remind ourselves what we are arguing about. You don't like the battle system, and believe all people don't play FFXI Online for the combat. I disagree with that, and FFXI Online DEFINITELY would not have become as popular and prosperous as it has become if the combat wasn't fun and good enough.

We are talking about the combat system and not the "battle" dynamics. Learn to read. You're arguing with Armando on another set off issues. I'm talking about the menu driven combat system, highly dependent on macros to even be marginally functioning, and of the latency (which also exists in FFXIV because of the overlay on rails built for the PS3/XBOX360)

So Square Enix said they would "improve" things when they didn't, I don't see FFXI subscribers leaving to the point where the servers would be closed. If it was so bad, people wouldn't have bothered touching the PVP either (when Linkshells I was in always did PVP and otehr combat related activities every single day and they don't complain about the combat at all. They enjoy it.)

We have an archive here on the forums. Go through the old "pet peeve" and various (myriads, really) and see if Blue Gartyr and Killing Ifrits have similar archives. Don't peddle your ignorance here when you can educate yourself.

People join and leave FFXI parties too, but the battle system and functionality, everything about it gives more incentive for communication, comraderie, strategy and good times.

No, you're completely misrepresenting the fact that you were FORCED to participate in a party to gain any semblance of progress (up until Aht Urghan) The only exception to this was Beastmaster, Summoner and Puppetmaster (and various classes in specific situations and/or level ranges) Saying that you had options is the same as saying a convict has the option to break out of jail in order to leave it.

Also, smoking is bad for your health and mind.

First of all, I don't smoke. Secondly, even if I were, minding your own damn business is good for your mind and health.

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

P.S.

I also don't get why the fuck you care so much for this game (FFXIV) when you (a) don't even play this game (b) have no personal stake in the game, one way or the other.