[dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

[Armando]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

People like it because it exploited things like Refresh and can heal and nuke and melee, basically do all the basic stuff, that's why it's popular since it's more soloable,

but that doesn't make it good when it directly lessens BLM and WHM's importance.

When I was a young White Mage, or a young Black Mage, I loved having a Red Mage. This was back in the CoP era, when mobs took at least 2 minutes to kill, and were so hard that some form of Skillchain + Magic Burst was practically mandatory. See, with the Red Mage around, both the White Mage and the Black Mage can rest a couple of extra ticks at the start of the battle - and that's pretty damned valuable. The first tick of /heal takes 20 seconds instead of 10, and every subsequent tick recovers one more MP than the last, so it's much, MUCH more efficient to recover over long periods instead of starting and stopping constantly.

Without the RDM, the task of enfeebling the mob fell on the WHM and BLM. That means they HAVE to get up at the start of the fight to land Paralyze, Blind, Slow, Poison and Dia at a minimum. But, because they don't have A-rank enfeebling, they're more prone to getting resisted than a Red Mage would be, so they're going to waste more time and MP on recasts. The WHM will also have to stay up after his enfeebles because by then the tank will have taken some damage, unless you've got 2 competent NINs.

If they just had a RDM, the RDM could be the one to stand up and do the enfeebles, and he'd do a better job at it. The RDM can also provide healing for the first 10-20 seconds of the fight, so the WHM doesn't have to get up. He also brings Gravity to the table, which provided some desperately-needed -10 Evasion on the mob and a safety net for when the BLM or RNG crosses the hate line. Speaking of hate, the RDM eats up the high hate from Blind so the WHM and BLM can have lower hate levels. Never mind the fact that you NEED Dispel if you're gonna be fighting crawlers or crabs or beetles (wait, isn't that most mobs people EXP'd on?) By the time he's done his job, the WHM and BLM will have an extra 30-45 MP at the start of every fight, and then the RDM can take a knee for his own long /heal session. This was all pre-41 by the way; neither Refresh nor Haste were part of this equation just yet.

So don't tell me RDM is overrated or that it diminished the value of WHM or BLM. RDM helped those jobs do their own job better. Without RDM, you'd have to get a second BLM or a second WHM, neither of which will have Dispel or Gravity or A-rank Enfeebling, or you would HAVE to bring a BRD to ALL your parties. A second BLM or WHM will not be able to carry out both roles well - the BLM is a great second Magic Burst but is way behind in Cure tiers, the WHM can Cure but has pathetic MBs. The support RDM wasn't awesome at either, but was adequately good at both at the same time.

And no, Ninjutsu is not different from Black Magic. They work the same, the only thing that changes is that one eats up MP, the other eats gil. Also, Utsusemi really, REALLY hurt this game.

So pardon me if I don't buy into your "mew mew Ninja is the best thing ever." Ninja has never been a balanced job and FFXI was not the game to break that trend. I don't care how unique the job is, it damaged this game badly. And LOL at your accusation that people only liked RDM because of Refresh; people only liked Ninja because of Utsusemi. The job would be worthless without it.

[Takelli]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

You throw in something like utsusemi, all bets are off.

Utsusemi did mess up the game badly. Now a trait such as an ability that caused every like 15% attacks aimed at you is a guranteed dodge or something, but nothing like utsusemi.

[Firewind]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

Lots of Stuff.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about RDM. It was the ToAU-AByssea area where RDMs completely broke the game. There was little point in inviting any other mage class except maybe a Scholar for Accession.

Currently I would never call the RDM useless at all. I actually love having a RDM around in Abyssea parties since every single Atma I have are melee DD Atma. I rarely ever see people wanting to go after Atma that are actually useful for WHMs.

While it does only have a niche role in Abyssea, there are plenty of other events where it's as strong as ever.

[Malacite]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

Gonna have to disagree with you on that last point - people LOVE Ninja for a lot of reasons.

Most people used it for Utsusemi though.

Also, don't forget that sweet sweet pimp hat. If they do bring back NIN for XIV, they need to keep it more in line with FF4 or 5 - make Ninjutsu cost MP again, and rig up Utsusemi to either crank up Evasion like it used to, or only absorb physical damage and not magic.

[jenova_9]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

Mew! It's not NIN's fault, it's how they designed NIN around Utsusemi and allowed other classes to exploit it. (and they really made NIN too expensive for a class that aren't really rich warriors lore-wise. Assassins shouldn't need so much money to use their most basic and essential techniques. Tools should have been completely replaced with permanent learned Scrolls and MP usage. Once people learn ninjutsu like Utsusemi, they should just use MP to use it! It's already expensive enough affording Shurikens. )

Look at the mighty NINs in FFV, FFTactics, FFVI and they don't need shadows to be useful!

NINs in most rpgs were originally flexible DD class mostly more than Tanks or support.

but ya utsusemi was designed to give NINs a tank role in FFXI, otherwise NIN without Utsusemi is like a PLD without Cure/gear/defense abilities

but ya NIN would have been better if they were given a more DD focused role like Samurai, RNG and BLM.

[Armando]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

and they really made NIN too expensive for a class that aren't really rich warriors lore-wise.

I don't think you know the first thing about real ninjas. Hint: they didn't run around holding two swords and dressed in a black costume.

Look at the mighty NINs in FFV, FFTactics, FFVI and they don't need shadows to be useful!

No, they just broke those games, except for VI. Do you know why Shadow didn't break FFVI? Because he didn't have Dual Wield. Throw was broken in FFT as well, and Ninja was the catch-all, obsolete-all-other-melees job of FFIII (the Japanese version.)

[Firewind]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

You guys know that "Ninja", like "Samurai" is already a plural right? And while it is silly to bring history into a video game discussion, actual ninja were nothing more than assassins and spies. They would be dressed as whatever they needed to dress as to get the job done, literally "hiding in plain sight" as you would expect an assassin or spy from any other culture to do.

The black costume just comes from kabuki theatre where a ninja would be represented by a stage hand (dressed in black so the audience knew they were part of the show), suddenly pulling out a weapon and killing a character. It's basically a literary representation of a disguised ninja assassinating a target.

And actually, Jenova has a point. NIN using MP instead of tools would have broken the game a bit less. It would make no difference in Abyssea due to Atma but still an interesting thought.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

I don't think you know the first thing about real ninjas. Hint: they didn't run around holding two swords and dressed in a black costume.

Second hint: contrary to what FFXI would have you believe, real Ninja were usually very much not rich. Frequently, they were simply farmhands using whatever junk they had around coupled with sneaky, underhanded and "dishonorable" tactics to get done what they needed to get done.

The nobility, who could actually afford fancy cool stuff and wanted to tear some structurally superfluous new behinds, were usually the Samurai. Their fancy cool stuff? Top-of-the-line armor and weaponry, not to mention stuff like horses, which were a big deal in ancient times but you might find boring today.

Nonetheless, the only thing that was ever truly interesting about the ninja was simply their sheer ingenuity; even a lot of their reputation, which still persists in popular culture to this day, started as little more than a word-of-mouth intimidation tactic.

[Raydeus]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

If XIV's NIN was like

This.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oco3lPfokaU

I'd call it a triumph, huge success.

[Malacite]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

Technically anyone could get Dual-Wield in 6 and be a power house.

Shadow really is amazing early on though if you have enough shuriken/scrolls to make full use of him. Late game it's really mostly about who you prefer on your team.

NIN didn't really break 5 either - it just contributed to it as part of the big 3 (Mystic Knight [my fav class ever] RNG & NIN) if you took the time to master those jobs. Even in FFT, Ninjas were not THAT game-breaking I found. If anything MNK gets to be ridiculously strong by end game, and don't even get me started on the awesomeness of DRK or Calculator. (Cid was seriously OP in that game too).

FF3 has been the only main entry in the series (apart from XI but XI is online) that really did suffer from having NIN in the game in terms of balance.

[Armando]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

Technically anyone could get Dual-Wield in 6 and be a power house.

I realize that, but the point is that it's not exclusive to Shadow. If it were, he'd be much more powerful than the other characters.

Even in FFT, Ninjas were not THAT game-breaking I found.

Are you kidding? They're one of two jobs that can have Dual Wield and Martial Arts at the same time. Pay 300 JP, put Martial Arts on them, take off your weapons and wreck shit. Also, Throw range is equal to your movement range, so you put on Move +2 and some Germinas boots and you're looking at 7 move range and 7 throw range, and like 5 jump. You can hit anyone in the battlefield with ease and they have no hopes of ever catching you - for about 50 JP, or 150 if you want to be able to throw all 3 type of balls. If they did catch you you'd just doublepunch them to death. Sunken State (auto-invis) and Abandon (x2 evasion rates at all times) were also amazing reaction abilities. Being invisible is the same as attacking from behind, so it's one of the best ways to steal - and guess what also makes Steal better? Martial Arts.

[Malacite]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

Eh, I always used the guest characters and adjusted their abilities accordingly.

I prefer to use counter as my reactive ability, and fly or HP/MP up for movement.

Last time I played I believe I ran with Ramza, Mustadio, Cloud, Cid & Balthier (previously Agrias before PSP remake came out) and their default abilities are pretty crazy. I do hate that Cloud HAS to have the Materia Blade though, weak ass PoS.

I've always found the guest's special skills to be far more OP than anything NIN brought to the table, minus the duping glitch and giving everyone an Excalibur + a 2nd weapon

[Firewind]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

Second hint: contrary to what FFXI would have you believe, real Ninja were usually very much not rich. Frequently, they were simply farmhands using whatever junk they had around coupled with sneaky, underhanded and "dishonorable" tactics to get done what they needed to get done.

The nobility, who could actually afford fancy cool stuff and wanted to tear some structurally superfluous new behinds, were usually the Samurai. Their fancy cool stuff? Top-of-the-line armor and weaponry, not to mention stuff like horses, which were a big deal in ancient times but you might find boring today.

Nonetheless, the only thing that was ever truly interesting about the ninja was simply their sheer ingenuity; even a lot of their reputation, which still persists in popular culture to this day, started as little more than a word-of-mouth intimidation tactic.

I'm nitpicking here but it's not entirely true that all ninja were farmhands. There are so few historical records of actual ninja is is difficult to be entirely sure. The definition of "Ninja" is also a bit iffy. "Agent" is probably the best translation for it.

The first problem is that the term "Ninja" is mostly a western thing, "Shinobi" was far more widely used but even then they were not often mentioned, instead refered to by a number of nicknames which likely helped spread their reputation. One common name for them was also "Monomi" which literally means "Person that sees", basically a spy.

[Etra]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

Ninpou: Vag Bubbles or go home.
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/off...bles-hell.html

But, yeah, I really wish SE would have never added in Ninja to XI. It made the game horribly boring. That's all I really have to say.

[jenova_9]

Re: [dev1206] Class Reforms & Action Lists

You mean not adding NIN how they were gameplay designed in XI.

NINs visually and historically make any Final Fantasy better, especially mmorpgs, mew! They are worlds apart from Samurai, Warriors, and anything that uses a sword or magic.

and NIN would definitely bring a lot more fun options than a THF would.