Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

[Ziero]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

1. Most people don't use their TV for internet.
2. People with consoles don't necessarily have a computer (debatable, but this does not assume anything)
3. Most people with a console don't have keyboards for it.

1) Except every major console released today has built in Wifi. Hell, many TVs being made today have built in Wifi and/or VGA input ports compatible with PCs. Not to mention most laptops and PCs made today also have HDMI or S-Video ports. Hell, one of the big new thing for TV nowadays is being able to stream services like Netflix directly to your TV through either game consoles, DVD/Blu-ray players or even the TV itself directly.

TVs and Computers are more then compatible these days.

2) This means absolutely nothing. Hell, if anything this is even more reason why the Console version of an MMO will be more popular. Gaming PCs in Japan are rare and highly expensive, gaming consoles are cheap and easy to use. There's a reason why the PS2, despite all the massive hoops people had to jump through to use it, was the most popular console playing XI. Over half the user base, more then the PC and 360 combined, were using the PS2.

Just in case you didn't catch that, right now, at this very moment, the majority of players in FFXI use consoles.

3) Consoles today can literally use any USB keyboard. Many of which can be bought for dirt cheap.

Basically, your entire argument boils down to "this has how it's always been!" and "they don't have keyboards!" Neither of which actually hold any kind of water anymore. Game consoles today are treated like PCs, they have hard drives, multiple input devices, various functions and uses and built in internet connectivity. For christs sake, the PS3 used to be able to run Linux and has it's own built in Web Browser.

The fact that companies are continuing to make MMO games for consoles completely disproves anything even close to a point you could actually make. Especially since the only two pure console based MMOs are still up and running.

SE had nothing to do with the development of that game. They only published it for the company that developed it.

Everything I've found, except for Wikipedia itself, points to SE being directly involved with the creation and publishing of the game. Hell, even the Wiki states SE is the developer.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

SE had nothing to do with the development of that game. They only published it for the company that developed it.

Everything I've found, except for Wikipedia itself, points to SE being directly involved with the creation and publishing of the game. Hell, even the Wiki states SE is the developer.

Developer(s) Square Enix

Publisher(s) Gamepot
and Gamepot(USA) Inc.
Square Enix

Distributor(s) Square Enix

[Murphie]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

So in a nutshell, in this thread we have people who play the game and have complaints being told by people who don't play the game to shut it. At the very least serious attempts are being made to undermine the opinions of those who do play the game and feel they have legit complaints. Those who do play the game and have few(er) complaints are also making themselves heard, but they aren't quite as common as those who do. GOOD TIMES GUYS.

C- would not read again.

[ShepardG]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

"nope."

[Balfree]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Understanding that any attempt at making a point on the internet is pointless is what allows me to bear with it, which is why it will never be serious business. It's impossible to convey an idea or opinion when everyone simply basically demands their views to be absolute.

For the record I'm not telling anyone to "shut it", I'm telling people that they're paying for an under-development product and they need to realize that sooner rather than later, and that they need to deal with it. And I'm saying that for products that don't yet exist as well, because it's a business model that you can easily predict.

[Murphie]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

As someone who doesn't play the game, I will say, if you're not happy with the product you have, then stop playing. Maybe not forever, but you know, for a while. There are other products out there, and there's no sense spending money on a service that you aren't happy with. Of course, depending on the degree of your dissatisfaction, maybe it's worth sticking with. That's a call each person has to make.

[Etra]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Developer(s) Square Enix

Publisher(s) Gamepot
and Gamepot(USA) Inc.
Square Enix

Distributor(s) Square Enix

Sorry, but that's not correct. This was edited by someone who believes the original hype Gamepot was putting out. Read the first sentence of the wiki.

Fantasy Earth: ZERO (Japanese: ファンタジーアース ゼãƒ) formerly known as Fantasy Earth: The Ring of Dominion is a massively multiplayer online game developed by Fenix Soft (original developers, Multiterm, were absorbed into Fenix Soft on September 1, 2007).

Everything I've found, except for Wikipedia itself, points to SE being directly involved with the creation and publishing of the game. Hell, even the Wiki states SE is the developer.

Read above. Gamepot bought the game from SE after they canceled it. SE did not develop the game, they only published and distributed it. As like anything in Wiki, it can be edited by anyone and someone put in false data.

[Aeni]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Sorry, but that's not correct. This was edited by someone who believes the original hype Gamepot was putting out. Read the first sentence of the wiki.

Fantasy Earth: ZERO (Japanese: ファンタジーアース ゼãƒ) formerly known as Fantasy Earth: The Ring of Dominion is a massively multiplayer online game developed by Fenix Soft (original developers, Multiterm, were absorbed into Fenix Soft on September 1, 2007).

Yeah, Etra has it right, because I was following FE very closely and was intrigued by the development and potential viability that the game offered (at least in the very early stages) Then development and progress reports stopped being released and then the news of company reorganization and the vague release dates had ultimately made me forget about it.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 PM ----------

1) Except every major console released today has built in Wifi. Hell, many TVs being made today have built in Wifi and/or VGA input ports compatible with PCs.

Which has next to no relationship with the notion of using your console to surf the internet. The two ideas are mutually exclusive to each other.

2) This means absolutely nothing.

No, I mean to express the fact that they may not be using their console for online usage. That they are using their console solely for offline purposes. If you didn't understand that point then I apologize for that.

3) Consoles today can literally use any USB keyboard. Many of which can be bought for dirt cheap

Again, going back to point one, so what? Just because you can buy a keyboard for your console does not mean you would want to. Those two ideas, again, are mutually exclusive to each other.

Explain to me again how exactly an MMORPG title would work on any current console. And you're taking my comments way out of context. When the environment changes, yes, I can see it being successful and the potential is there, but right now, there is no good (at least not financially) incentive for any developer out there. With the exception of Square Enix which at one point in an article in a Japanese software magazine in 2007 stated that FFXI was a "showcase of the capabilities of PS2" that had the blessings from Sony and a lot of collaboration (despite SE reserving their rights to operate independently from any potential Sony network -- which eventually did come to fruition for the PS3) They never intended it to be a bank for them because if they did, they would've gone the route that many MMORPG titles did, following Blizzard's WoW model or following NCSoft's microtransaction model.

[ShepardG]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Again, going back to point one, so what? Just because you can buy a keyboard for your console does not mean you would want to. Those two ideas, again, are mutually exclusive to each other.

Your right, but why would you want to play a MMO, a game that requires communication, without the means to communicate???

My phone doesn't actually make or receive calls... just sayin.

Explain to me again how exactly an MMORPG title would work on any current console. And you're taking my comments way out of context. When the environment changes, yes, I can see it being successful and the potential is there, but right now, there is no good (at least not financially) incentive for any developer out there. With the exception of Square Enix which at one point in an article in a Japanese software magazine in 2007 stated that FFXI was a "showcase of the capabilities of PS2" that had the blessings from Sony and a lot of collaboration (despite SE reserving their rights to operate independently from any potential Sony network -- which eventually did come to fruition for the PS3) They never intended it to be a bank for them because if they did, they would've gone the route that many MMORPG titles did, following Blizzard's WoW model or following NCSoft's microtransaction model.

OH i'm sure they intend every thing they do to be a "bank", or else why do it (playing devils advocate here a bit) No company put's a product out with the intent that it's going to perform mediocerly(sp).

You could have an MMO and it could be 10x more successful than WoW as well as being console based, as long as you focused on the way we humans interact with it.

Unfortunately, Final Fantasy isn't owned by people that care about their product, nearly as much as how much money that product will make them. One would assume they would go hand-in-hand, yet here we are... dealing with the frustration that is XIV.

[Aeni]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

OH i'm sure they intend every thing they do to be a "bank", or else why do it (playing devils advocate here a bit) No company put's a product out with the intent that it's going to perform mediocerly(sp).

You could have an MMO and it could be 10x more successful than WoW as well as being console based, as long as you focused on the way we humans interact with it.

Unfortunately, Final Fantasy isn't owned by people that care about their product, nearly as much as how much money that product will make them. One would assume they would go hand-in-hand, yet here we are... dealing with the frustration that is XIV.

SE is an RPG company (or well known for one) so FFXI was a natural expansion for them. It's just that it isn't a "cash cow" for the console platform which is another big reason why you don't see companies like EA or Namco diving in. SE does use the PlayOnline viewer in Japan to bombard players with ads for their upcoming releases so in some way you can think of it as them diverting marketing $$ to this. The subscription has gone down to under 300,000 (It's generally accepted that there's roughly 5%-10% of the active accounts being controlled by RMT) and this is the reason why they deactivated a bunch of servers in order to keep maintenance costs down (the side benefit of having more players together was something they touted as the main reasons for the move but I don't think anyone is naive to believe them over that)

This operation costs money in terms of infrastructure (network, server location, backup equipment, technicians, etc), data delivery and capacity (ISP), service (customer support, GMs, merchant accounts, etc.), administrative, special content development, expansion development ... it goes on and on and on.

Also note that SE is giving a discount on monthly fees in FFXI if you maintain that service while playing FFXIV. In the first two months of FFXIV operation, SE would've effectively incur a huge financial loss, both in terms of investment capital into FFXIV and then the loss of some income for FFXI and finally the free month given out to CE owners. Before anyone mentions that the software they sold should have infused them with some money, it's probably being funneled straight into service costs, maintenance fees and PS3 development, so they're not making any money at all right now.

Now, that is not to say FFXI is a failed project, because it isn't, but it's nowhere near the resounding success some people are trying to spin on. If anything, it gave SE AND other console developers valuable data and information regarding the kinds of customers console users are and what kind of future systems they can expect to make money for them. MMORPG just isn't that vehicle right now. On the other hand, games like Halo continue to draw more console players in, and continue to have good success. Will SE adopt that model or foray into those kinds of online games and move away from online RPGs? I can't answer for them and no one seems to know what kind of agenda SE is running on especially after all of these recent corporate acqusitions in the past 2 years (Eidos et al)

[Ziero]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Sorry, but that's not correct. This was edited by someone who believes the original hype Gamepot was putting out. Read the first sentence of the wiki.

Read above. Gamepot bought the game from SE after they canceled it. SE did not develop the game, they only published and distributed it. As like anything in Wiki, it can be edited by anyone and someone put in false data.

GameSpy: Fantasy Earth: The Ring of Dominion - Page 1

Square Enix working on new MMORPG PC News - Page 1 | Eurogamer.net

Square Enix developing new MMORPG - News at GameSpot

Fantasy Earth: The Ring of Dominion (Import) (PC)

Strategy Informer: Games by Square Enix

Fantasy Earth: The Ring of Dominion Specs (PC) - PC Games - CNET Reviews

What part of "Everything but the Wiki" was hard to understand? In fact I even pointed out the inconsistency found on the Wiki to illustrate why I said that I wasn't going by the Wiki. But every other article I've seen pegs SE as the Developers.

Which has next to no relationship with the notion of using your console to surf the internet. The two ideas are mutually exclusive to each other.

How does having a built in web browser on your TV and home gaming consoles mean there is no relationship with using your Console or TV to surf the net? What in the hell does surfing the net even have to do with this conversation in the first place?

The PS3 has a built in web browser, built in wifi connection and built in HDD standard for every console they make. Now what is stopping the millions of PS3 players who already use their console and gaming system for online play from playing an MMO?

No, I mean to express the fact that they may not be using their console for online usage. That they are using their console solely for offline purposes. If you didn't understand that point then I apologize for that.

Except despite the many who don't use it for online purposes, a very large and undeniable amount of them do.

Again, going back to point one, so what? Just because you can buy a keyboard for your console does not mean you would want to. Those two ideas, again, are mutually exclusive to each other.

...except many people would want to.

None of your arguments hold any water for why MMOs on consoles are bad. Especially seeing that not only do we currently have two full fledged MMOs still running on outdated consoles, but we have many more coming down the line.

Explain to me again how exactly an MMORPG title would work on any current console.

Buy Game.
Install Game.
Play Game.

How is that hard to figure out?

And you're taking my comments way out of context. When the environment changes, yes, I can see it being successful and the potential is there, but right now, there is no good (at least not financially) incentive for any developer out there. With the exception of Square Enix which at one point in an article in a Japanese software magazine in 2007 stated that FFXI was a "showcase of the capabilities of PS2" that had the blessings from Sony and a lot of collaboration (despite SE reserving their rights to operate independently from any potential Sony network -- which eventually did come to fruition for the PS3)

The environment has changed. Every major console has built in wireless internet, built in Hard Drives and easy to use USB capabilities. Every major console has a very strong online community, each has their own specialized central networks to receive new purely digital content and updates through internet connections. Each and every major console today runs more like a computer then it does a traditional gaming console. If there is no "good incentive" for companies to make MMOs for Consoles, why are multiple companies making MMOs for consoles? SE, Sony, Koei are all making pure MMOs for the PS3. MAG is an MMO shooter that has constant updates, upgrades support and even has an optional monthly fee system in place. White Knight Chronicles and WKC2 has (and will have) persistent, user made towns to act as lobbies for group play and dungeon crawling and Monster Hunter Frontier is a full fledged MMO for the 360.

The potential is there and it's being used.

It's just that it isn't a "cash cow" for the console platform

Except FFXI is one of the most profitable FF games ever made.

Now, that is not to say FFXI is a failed project, because it isn't, but it's nowhere near the resounding success some people are trying to spin on.

Except it was a resounding success being one of the top MMOs for years and despite being 8 years old, it maintains a strong and healthy player base. Despite it's major method of use (The PS2) being severely outdated in today's current market.

[Aeni]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

How does having a built in web browser on your TV and home gaming consoles mean there is no relationship with using your Console or TV to surf the net? What in the hell does surfing the net even have to do with this conversation in the first place?

When you manage your account in FFXIV, you go on the internet to do so, unless you use your android phone/iPhone to do it. But we're talking in general terms around the world and FFXI/FFXIV was marketed as an "international" game and not just a JP title or NA release.

The PS3 has a built in web browser, built in wifi connection and built in HDD standard for every console they make. Now what is stopping the millions of PS3 players who already use their console and gaming system for online play from playing an MMO?

And I've said (but you conveniently glossed over) that the PC already has this stuff. Why would a PC user buy a console to play an MMORPG?

Except despite the many who don't use it for online purposes, a very large and undeniable amount of them do.

Unless you back that claim up with figures you're just blowing hot air. Keep in mind that I've figured in users in all parts of the world and not the U.S. You're conveniently thinking in terms of "me and where I live" and not about what SE/Sony had planned to do or are doing now.

...except many people would want to.

And that's your opinion and not a factual statement. My statement suggests they may not want to and you're saying that they will. Stop assuming you know the demographics well because you don't.

None of your arguments hold any water for why MMOs on consoles are bad. Especially seeing that not only do we currently have two full fledged MMOs still running on outdated consoles, but we have many more coming down the line.

You haven't backed up your claim with any data other than anecdotes and your opinions.

Buy Game.
Install Game.
Play Game.

How is that hard to figure out?

Oh really? So why are some gaming companies making more money than others? If life was this simple, I'd be a billionaire and you'd be married to Megan Fox.

The environment has changed. Every major console has built in wireless internet, built in Hard Drives and easy to use USB capabilities. Every major console has a very strong online community, each has their own specialized central networks to receive new purely digital content and updates through internet connections. Each and every major console today runs more like a computer then it does a traditional gaming console. If there is no "good incentive" for companies to make MMOs for Consoles, why are multiple companies making MMOs for consoles? SE, Sony, Koei are all making pure MMOs for the PS3. MAG is an MMO shooter that has constant updates, upgrades support and even has an optional monthly fee system in place. White Knight Chronicles and WKC2 has (and will have) persistent, user made towns to act as lobbies for group play and dungeon crawling and Monster Hunter Frontier is a full fledged MMO for the 360.

I'm arguing about MMORPGs while you're talking about MMOs in general. Nice how you like to gloss over things and just pick out what you want to argue about and conveniently leave out the rest of my post. As for you driving the point about centralized networks, I can tell you that is one of the reasons why MMORPGs don't succeed on consoles. PCs don't have a centralized network of users, they're free to roam as they please and do not pay for additional service fees outside of the ISP fees.

Except FFXI is one of the most profitable FF games ever made.

Facts?

Except it was a resounding success being one of the top MMOs for years and despite being 8 years old, it maintains a strong and healthy player base. Despite it's major method of use (The PS2) being severely outdated in today's current market.

Facts? It's your opinion but after reading articles and articles on this, it was never a resounding success. Maybe at one point 2 years into its life where it peaked out at just over 1.5 million subscribers, but the bulk of that left in a hurry and in just a scant 2 years after, they were barely holding 500,000 or 33% of their peak.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Except FFXI is one of the most profitable FF games ever made.

I have to disagree with this. You can not count the monthly fees into the profit from the game. The other games are not online so to compare them in that fashion is unfair. So based on just sales of the game discs, I would say that FFXI is not as profitable of a FF game as you might think. If I remember correctly, FFX had 1.4 million PRE-orders, and I don't remember how many it went on to sell in total. But FFVII surpassed that with 10 million in total sales I believe and then if you want to factor in that they are also selling it on PSN now that would add to the sales (and its even one of the top selling games on there). I'd hate to factor in the merchandising sales too....FFVII is a monster!

[Etra]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

FFVII is a monster!

And this saddens me.


@Ziero - It's not developed my SE. At all. Sorry, it's just not. They published it. That's not the same as designing. Like Aeni, I followed it when it was P2P and even before then. It was never solely developed by SE.

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/compan...?company=93930

[Raydeus]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

And I've said (but you conveniently glossed over) that the PC already has this stuff. Why would a PC user buy a console to play an MMORPG?

It's the oposite though, because a console like the PS3 has the same capabilities as a PC now there's no reason for a console gamer to be left out of an MMOG or forced to buy a PC when they can easily play using their console. Also, many MMORPGs already do dumb down many features and/or add several toggles in the config for the sake of allowing lower end PCs (which are usually less powerful than a current gen console) to play the game too.

So in the end it all depends on the developer in question and their ability to provide good gameplay for both versions of the game, which in practice would tend to be the exactly same except for the UI.

SE's deadly mistake is they are fixated on giving both versions the exact same UI. Which is retarded beyond excuse.

Give the PC version customizable UI, give the console version convenient and easy to use console controls, make keyboards mandatory.


Keep both (paying) costumers happy.
???
Profit.


Or at least that's how I see it.

Also worth pointing out is foldable USB keyboards (which use very little space in case console gamers don't want a regular keyboard) are like 5 bucks nowadays.