Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

[Aeni]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

What you consider "lag" in the system is probably meant to keep you in check and leave the Dual Shock 3 user with every advantage you have during gameplay. And that is a balance that should be strived for - I don't care how much PC gamers whine about it, either. You should not be afforded any advantages for your platform.

What advantage am I being afforded? Why should lag exist for a mouse user and not a controller user? Do you even understand what you're saying? This game was released for the PC first not the PS3 so therefore logic dictates that the game should be developed fully for the first platform it was released on. I never once complained about any PC port that was originally released on a console. If I didnt like the way it was made I'd go and buy the original version. If PS3 players want so badly to play this title, let them go buy a PC. A good friend said it once and I'll reiterate his comments: No good MMORPG game in history was ever made for a console exclusively.

Every interview with SE is a controlled Q&A.
Hell, every interview with Barack Obama is a controlled Q&A.

What kind of question is that?

Then why bother to have this interview? Other than trying to draw "readership" (which is debatable because Massively's draw in the first place was not about candid interviews with developers but about running reviews for the hundreds of MMOs being released around the world every year) I see no point going to Comic Con to become free press for SE. Let SE put out their own "interviews" as they have done routinely during Alpha, Beta and up to release.

[Balfree]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Big post. There's a tldr version at the end. But even scrolling will feel like a chore.

No one needs to endure any bs. If it's so much of a hassle then no one else can be blamed but whoever purchased the product. The game is a product. I understand the frustration of having bought something that is not to one's liking but what can you do? Imo would be much worse to have bought, say, God Of War III and realizing the game is not my cup of tea, there goes 50$ worth of next-gen hype. With online games at least I know eventually the game will change and grow with expansions and stuff that will keep me interested, but that also comes at a cost, If I choose to use the service that's provided. Unlike GOWIII that will always remain the same, and I will probably simply never like it, and I will forever feel like I threw 50$ down the drain. Or I could sell that game and get some of that money back, the same thing with most every other product.

Getting back to the point, I do have the game, I'm not playing it admittedly not because of choice, though I could just go out and buy a computer part immediately if I was in so much of a hurry. It's not because I don't feel like the product isn't right for me (I've played games in the past, I really doubt this will be the one to revolutionize everything and show me that games are completely different nowadays), it's more about me not being in a hurry and having personal reasons such as time constraints or direct priorities at the moment. Maybe I would complain about certain things about the game were I playing but that is beside the point, the thing here is that people go crazy when something isn't working as they wanted to, something that is so obviously going to be fixed sometime in the future too, or at least I feel that way because it simply makes no sense that things take 5 seconds to register online in this day and age, and shouldn't something so obvious have been fixed in the first place, because it's so crucial? as a developer I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt because some hurdles are simply hard to get around right away. Stress tests don't make much sense without stressing the system and pushing close to its limits, to then circumvent the situation. Beta just doesn't cut it, when people start realizing that the true beta has begun when retail hit, that's when they will understand why the game is so lacking right now. And that's what people need to be aware of. And that's why SE is hurting, because people will not tolerate this. But the way I see it...

Would we rather have them delay the game and make the UI better for retail? what if people still weren't satisfied then? It would all have been for nothing. A game that took an extra bit of time to finish, with tons more stuff to do, but still didn't deliver... and now even more aspects of it are worrying players. Or a game that is more worried about being shaped by it's community from pretty much the very beginning?

Maybe it's a good thing to see things through the perspective of someone that's not playing, the idea I get is that people are just throwing rants around without actually taking the opportunity that is being given to them to help shape the game into a better experience. I'm seeing people taking advantage of exploits and then trying to be the victim (everyone's so good at being naive, aren't they?), complaining that a finished game was what they payed for (I doubt even 10% of the players didn't know what they had coming when they pre-ordered), same thing with the gamepad rants, the bottom line is: if the developer tells you the game is better played with a gamepad, then why do people come waltzing in saying that's a problem with the game? It's like saying its a problem that the game requires certain minimum specs, based on their preferences.

It's like when a client asks me to make a system where he can insert rows of information, like the name of a product, the brand and the price. And then when he sees a generic test-product I inserted with info"Note book, BrandX, 10$" he turns to me asking if I think he sells note books and why the hell did I think of a note book that's 10$. Then I have to explain that that is a test product, so he can see the end result and comment on the function of the program, obviously I'm not assuming he sells note books. I also realize that a retail version of a game is not the same as a test version. But you know what? There IS such a thing. Developers can release unfinished games these days and make you bear with it, that's how it works. You can yell all you want. Oh but look... people did yell, and it did have an effect, seems like they are worried about the UI now... so what are we looking at here? A game developer that does things (or at least says they will do them) based on what the players suggest/cry about? Isn't that a good thing?

I know I'm just preaching here and no one's really going to agree and it's all hopeless, but to be honest this is how I feel about the whole deal and all those snide remarks and attempts at sounding more informed than me and bring down my points of view will simply fall into deaf ears unless a constructive argument is felt.

If you ARE playing the game and talking about the stuff that you don't like about the game, then you're doing it right. But if all you're doing is throwing pointless tantrums around about how much the game sucks and how horrible it is that it got a 4 on some review and how much SE is failing ever since PS2, then I hope the game never becomes better for you so that you don't have to swallow your pride when you finally are able to enjoy the game.

tldr;
- Game is under development. Regardless of how much money is coming out of your wallet.
- You can have an effect on the outcome. As someone that is indeed interested in the end result, that should be a little bit encouraging.
- Ranting is a good way to be misunderstood, you're not helping by saying "The UI sucks", if you just want to rant, more power to you.
- I'm a fanboy and I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about because I have absolutely no experience with games at all and have never played MMOs. I'm also probably in love with Sage Sundi and anything he says comes directly from divine intervention.

tldr2;
Don't bother.

Then why bother to have this interview? Other than trying to draw "readership" (which is debatable because Massively's draw in the first place was not about candid interviews with developers but about running reviews for the hundreds of MMOs being released around the world every year) I see no point going to Comic Con to become free press for SE. Let SE put out their own "interviews" as they have done routinely during Alpha, Beta and up to release.

The same uninformed people that fail to realize what is going on... they need to be told what 1+1 is. If its through more popular means so that it reaches the massive amounts of those types, then so be it. I also disagree though, they should just be quiet about it some more.

[Raydeus]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Balfree you were right, even scrolling down to the TL;DR felt like a chore.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

What advantage am I being afforded? Why should lag exist for a mouse user and not a controller user? Do you even understand what you're saying? This game was released for the PC first not the PS3 so therefore logic dictates that the game should be developed fully for the first platform it was released on. I never once complained about any PC port that was originally released on a console. If I didnt like the way it was made I'd go and buy the original version. If PS3 players want so badly to play this title, let them go buy a PC. A good friend said it once and I'll reiterate his comments: No good MMORPG game in history was ever made for a console exclusively.

What advantage are you being afforded with a mouse? Speed and precision.
What isn't going to match that speed and precsion? D-pads and Analog sticks.

Regardless of lead platform, Final Fantasy XIV was always planned for PS3. Final Fatnasy is reknowned as a console franchise. Why would you just suddenly abandon the console market - the market that is most likely your strongest advocate - in favor of an audience that is still quite clearly just as alien to you as you are to them?

Also this good friend of yours seems quite poorly informed. There's only been one console-exclusive MMO in history that I've ever known of - Everquest Online Adventures. So your pal is basing his opinion on one game that didn't even use a HDD for updates. everything was updated to a 4MB file on a memory card.

Also, with PC gaming continuing to fade and console hardware being incredibly similar to PC architecture, MMOs expanding into this realm is an inevitability

we're even starting to see other MMO-style games. MAG has a pretty strong following and MAG2 is already in the works. DCU Online will be joining FFXIV on PS3.

If FFXI and EQOA are your friend's "proof" console-based MMOs are not a good idea, I have to say he's drawing from a very, very limited sample. The console MMORPG still remains largely unexplored..

Hell, I'll make a bet right now. In less than five years from today, MMOs will be entirely possible on a handheld. And no, I don't mean that Panasonic Jungle piece of crap - that's just a glorified laptop - I'm talking 3DS, PSP2 and smartphones.

Watch it happen.

We're already more than capable of having Diablo clones with wireless online play through DS and PSP - so how far away is the MMO. And if they're practical for PC and handheld, how can they not be for consoles?

Then why bother to have this interview? Other than trying to draw "readership" (which is debatable because Massively's draw in the first place was not about candid interviews with developers but about running reviews for the hundreds of MMOs being released around the world every year) I see no point going to Comic Con to become free press for SE. Let SE put out their own "interviews" as they have done routinely during Alpha, Beta and up to release.

Well, for one, I'd wager Massively wasn't just there only for FFXIV, as there were other MMOs being shown of like the patently obvious DCU Online. Also, there's this thing we like to call "time" that exists in limited amounts and when a journalist has so many interviews to do that day and you have so many journalists to see in one day - you want to get through that in a timely fashion.

This is why questions are sent out in advance and why the interviewee picks what he or she is going to answer.

In fact, you don't even have to be a journalist to do this process - Jay Leno and David Letterman do this too. Jon Stewart does it. Even blowhards like Keith Olbermann and Rush Limbaugh know they have a set amount of time to talk about what they want to talk about and how many calls (which they screen to pick the ones that interest them) they can take.

Its all about time. If your NA rep has a 5 o'clock back to California and Sage Sundi has to be flying back to Japan at 3, you need to get that shit done. You're not doing a big feature spread for Rolling Stone or Newsweek, so there's not much room to wax philosophical with these people.

And trying to play the "hard-hitting" journalist is the #1 way to lose contact with these people forever. Additionally, its not what you're there for. These people don't have evil, hidden agenda and gaming journalist is soft journalism. Its entertainment journalism. Its a relaxed format.

You're supposed to be both objective and considerate.

I actually got to interview the Indigo Girls once back in college. What do you think I asked about? I'll tell you what I didn't ask:

"So why are you a lesbian?"

I did ask about the concerts that go boycotted by parents pulling kids from attendance the day of a free concert at school. That was over their sexuality, but I thought this was more important because going over their music, I couldn't see a reason for the protests and boycotts. These are just musicians that happen to have gender preference, but what they sing about most anyone could relate to.

I'm not there to delve into the darkness of their psyche or some shit, I'm not there to look for political motive. A show is happening, they're playing at it, let's talk about what's happened with them recently, what music they enjoy and be done with it.

That's what you do with entertainment interviews. Not everything you toss out is a softball pitch, but you're not trying to bean them in the kidney, either.

[Malacite]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Balfree you were right, even scrolling down to the TL;DR felt like a chore.

The 1st or the second?

[Aeni]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Also this good friend of yours seems quite poorly informed. There's only been one console-exclusive MMO in history that I've ever known of - Everquest Online Adventures. So your pal is basing his opinion on one game that didn't even use a HDD for updates. everything was updated to a 4MB file on a memory card.

And you just proved his point. There's a reason why MMORPGs do not get developed for consoles. Because they don't work! You already hinted at the hardware limitations that SE (or one of) has made such a big importance over (I didn't put that into their mouths) In other words, SE should've realized it wasn't going to work out well and just instead develop it fully for the PC platform where it would've succeeded far better. They already have a lot of games that are exclusive to one platform or another and this wouldn't be any different.

---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 PM ----------

If you ARE playing the game and talking about the stuff that you don't like about the game, then you're doing it right. But if all you're doing is throwing pointless tantrums around about how much the game sucks and how horrible it is that it got a 4 on some review and how much SE is failing ever since PS2, then I hope the game never becomes better for you so that you don't have to swallow your pride when you finally are able to enjoy the game.

And yes, I've renewed my Crysta allotment for 2 characters and will continue to play the game for the next 4 months after. Don't get me wrong, I've derived as much entertainment out of the game as I have encountered frustrations and I do fully understand that the game will continue to undergo changes and improvements because after all that is the nature of an online game (not just MMORPGs) My only issues have been that certain areas of the game were found to be problematic in Phase 1 of Beta and that it went largely untouched (I won't use the word "ignored" because that would be unfair to SE) almost 3 weeks into release. I realize that SE also has a lot of different games that they are working on and that the PS3 version is still undergoing development so they need to prioritize their efforts and what have you. But, I feel that even if delaying the release by 1 month would've helped them immensely, they should've taken that route instead of the one that they did.

We'll see what the next 4-5 months will bring.

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------

If anyone is wondering why I have two characters it's because you do not know me well enough. I'm a packrat as bad as they come. And I've even taken to losing 5% of my earnings doing swaps and creative inventory management in dark corners and distant wards where hopefully no one is ludicrous enough to hang out at and trying to swoop in on some inadvertent deals.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

For all the complaints about the game's systems, there have been relatively few complaints about the actual mechanics of launch

lolwut?

That's the point I realised this "interview" was nothing more than some cheap PR.

Also love how they say they prefer to let the players make their own forums rather than establishing a two way dialogue. They know they'd be damn well savaged by EU/JP/NA alike.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

With online games at least I know eventually the game will change and grow with expansions and stuff that will keep me interested, but that also comes at a cost, If I choose to use the service that's provided.

Yes, MMO's can change if the developer chooses to change them. With the point being a bug, glitch, or bad implementation, that involves the developer admitting they screwed something up and feeling motivated to fix it. Then another factor is just how motivated they are to fix the issue. How does the public know how things are going behind the scenes? Only if they tell us. Now lets factor in the company we are talking about here since this is a thread about FFXIV in a section about FFXIV. SE does not communicate and if they do its full of veiled bs that you have to decipher. This angers people. Then, going on past experience, they have fixed things that weren't a huge issue and ignored others....for years. THIS is what people are concerned about. We can only surmise whats going to happen going on past experiences and those experiences haven't been very good have they?

I know I'm just preaching here and no one's really going to agree and it's all hopeless, but to be honest this is how I feel about the whole deal and all those snide remarks and attempts at sounding more informed than me and bring down my points of view will simply fall into deaf ears unless a constructive argument is felt.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You come into the thread and throw around "qqbandwagon", "sob away", "cry", "kittens do not purr anymore because of the User interface in FFXIV", but thats ok to do. Public forums about games are going to have people complaining about said game, even if its the most perfect game in the world. If a thread bothers you because of what people are saying then don't bother it but coming in slinging mud isn't going to get you a positive reaction.

[Balfree]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Yea but I didn't point any fingers, there is a general sense of hopelessness that I get from all over the place and that's what I'm talking about.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

There's a reason why MMORPGs do not get developed for consoles. Because they don't work!

Until you back this up with FACTUAL reasons, I refuse to take this statement seriously.

MAG is an MMO FPS, it was made for PS3
DCU Online was made with PS3 and PC in mind, it is an MMORPG
FFXI is still going on with PS2, 360 and PC.
The people that own a 360 in Japan tend to own one for Monster Hunter Frontier.
Tecmo-Koei is planning to have Dynasty Warriors Online for PS3 at some point.

For something that "doesn't work," it sure seems to keep happening and working.

Also, rather interestingly, EQOA servers are still up. Its still supported.

EverQuest Online Adventures - Discussion Boards
EverQuest Online Adventures - Massively Multiplayer For The PlayStation�2.

That's 7 years of a game with no expansions, by the way. Very strong RP community and GM involvement in events, though.

But I guess none of this works, even though each example I've listed is an active one.

[Aeni]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Until you back this up with FACTUAL reasons, I refuse to take this statement seriously.

Factual? As in ... MMORPG ... READ IT CAREFULLY. RPG ... ROLE PLAYING GAME. Don't list a bunch of non RPG games ... really man.

MAG is an MMO FPS, it was made for PS3

NOT AN MMORPG

DCU Online was made with PS3 and PC in mind, it is an MMORPG

BETA

FFXI is still going on with PS2, 360 and PC.

It had the most popularity in Japan for a brief time period and then that number dwindled quickly to a relative handful of hardcore players. You forgot to mention that many JP accounts are recycled as "used games" in Japan with several owners of accounts. I can attest that as my JP friends told me that it was commonplace.

The people that own a 360 in Japan tend to own one for Monster Hunter Frontier.

To be fair, this is more of an online action game and is as far from FFXI as StarCraft II is from WoW.

Tecmo-Koei is planning to have Dynasty Warriors Online for PS3 at some point.

VAPORWARE (It doesn't exist)

For something that "doesn't work," it sure seems to keep happening and working.

You haven't proven anything either. My statement is more "factual" than yours.

Going back to FFXI ... that term success is "relative" and since there's nothing else to compare to on any console platform, then you can't use that term. If you look strictly at the PC version and compared it with other titles for the PC ... it's not even a serious purchase.

[Elwynn]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Would we rather have them delay the game and make the UI better for retail?

How about if they simply hadn't released it three months early for dubious reasons?

[ShepardG]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Best thing the community can do for the thing we love (Final Fantasy) and also for the future of SE is to unsubscribe before we get charged that first month.

If your on the fence, i recomend saving some money, un-subscribing. If you love Final Fantasy, and the art that the name represents, you should send the only message you can to an otherwise silent company. Don't give them your money.

If your enjoying the game, That's awesome ^^ Keep on keeping on.

If you hated it, and never want to come back, that's understandable.

But if your on the fence, we can't keep giving them money, because they won't change anything.

[Malacite]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Best thing the community can do for the thing we love (Final Fantasy) and also for the future of SE is to unsubscribe before we get charged that first month.

Yup. Unless they introduce sweeping changes and fast, I'm not paying for any crysta.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Massively's NYCC Interview (there may yet be hope!)

Factual? As in ... MMORPG ... READ IT CAREFULLY. RPG ... ROLE PLAYING GAME. Don't list a bunch of non RPG games ... really man.

One is not a bunch and the fact that Mag is MMO (persistent world) and rather popular does make it relevant to the discussion. Additionally, it follows a ranking structure - something MMORPGs try but ultimately fail to make good on doing.

I don't give to shits if its not an RPG, its an MMO-styled game, the world is constantly being reshaped by the battle fought. Its an MMO - deal with it. You don' get to make up the rules as you go along. You said MMOs were not practical for console.

BETA

And according to you, so is FFXIV is still in beta, your point? Its coming, its an MMORPG.

It had the most popularity in Japan for a brief time period and then that number dwindled quickly to a relative handful of hardcore players. You forgot to mention that many JP accounts are recycled as "used games" in Japan with several owners of accounts. I can attest that as my JP friends told me that it was commonplace.

Sorry, popularity wasn't a qualifier here. FFXI was and still is playable on consoles and held strong for about six years. People still play it on PS2, they still make content for the PS2 and 360, much to the chagrin of selfish PC gamers.

And if anything FFXI has proven MMOs can be done on consoles twice over now. Just because it didn't reach the WoW subsciber level doesn't mean it wasn't a success.

To be fair, this is more of an online action game and is as far from FFXI as StarCraft II is from WoW.

My ass Monster Hunter is an "action game." If it were, i don't think I'd be hunting down parts of Monsters to build everything I own. This is a dungeon hack just like Diablo is a dungeon hack, except unlike Monster Hunter on PSP or Wii or Diablo on Battle.net, Monster Hunter Frontier features that all-important persistent world that defines the MMO.

VAPORWARE (It doesn't exist)

And you have proof to back that up? I've seen no news of its cancellation. There's not been much news on it since late 2009, but how long was Duke Nukem and Too Human vaporware? Over a decade - they still ended up happening.

You haven't proven anything either. My statement is more "factual" than yours.

I've done a lot more than stamp my feet and argue baseless points like you have, I've at least provided examples. MMOs are still happening on consoles - for all the petty excuses you stretch for to disqualify them.

Sony seems to think its a good idea or else they wouldn't be bothering with DCU Online for PS3 at all. As I pointed out, EQOA is still supported and it lacks many more of your creature comforts than FFXIV does.

Going back to FFXI ... that term success is "relative" and since there's nothing else to compare to on any console platform, then you can't use that term. If you look strictly at the PC version and compared it with other titles for the PC ... it's not even a serious purchase.

Bullshit. Just because you lost interest doesn't make the game any less of a success. It was in the top 5 for several years, only starting to truly decline in 2008 and has leveled off since then. People still start fresh every day and SE manages to keep servers up.

What's your gold standard for success here? 12 Million subscibers? If you're operating at a profit, your MMO is a success. Its that simple.

500k subscibers x 12.95 a month = $6,475,000

6,475,000 x 12 months = $77,700,000

And if we count the years FFXI has been operating, that's over $600,000,000

My, my, what I wouldn't give to "fail" on that level. I don't know what the expense to keep the game running are, but I'd wager even if half the people playing FFXIV left after the first month like the spoiled brats they are, FFXIV would still be up and running for years to come, even with a humble subscriber base.