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  • AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

    This is an interesting post someone posted, mew.
    "
    My History with MMO Economics - feel free to skip this, it's just validation
    I have always held a vested interest in economies in MMOs spanning from UO to WoW to FFXIV because, well, I like money. There is a trend that I have noticed: in games with a centralized market, crafting has a very hard time making profit (often incurring significant losses). I humbly offer my experience in various markets to help bring a better understanding of the AH and alternative solutions to the table.

    Summary
    The centralization of items into an auction house (or regional series) devalues crafted and gathered substances and supports RMT/botters. In the following sections I will go through the different ways that auction houses can (and are) manipulated for profit. Gatherers and farmers are able to make a baseline profit, but they too are exploited by RMT due to the AH.

    How the AH Affects Crafting
    Crafting is a very volatile topic. Typically someone who crafts either wants to profit or wants to avoid consistent charges (IE, Woodworking in FFXI to make arrows). The problem is that when an AH exists, people are given the absolute cheapest options. This seems like a good thing, but it creates a buyer's market. People start selling items at a small loss simply to raise their crafting higher. In an attempt to simply make some amount of money back, people start selling at huge losses. Even if you manage to cap your crafting skill, you will be making tiny profit margins among the other crafters. These profit margins will probably never make up for your overall losses. Even if an AH is broken up into regions, it is still extremely crippling to crafters (though there is a very slight reprieve).

    Why the FFXI AH Masked Prices
    This is a response tactic to making price tags too apparent. The intent was that buyers would continue to bid more for an item they wanted, allowing people to sell items at a slightly higher (and competitive) cost. Sellers were 'unaware' what a minimum cost was, and greed was meant to balance the scales. Unfortunately, the prices of items became somewhat standardized over time and this system really didn't fix the core problem. You are still always buying from the guy with the lowest price tag. (Which was usually RMT or a crafter trying to pick up the pieces of what used to be his wallet.)

    How the AH is Manipulated
    A word on bot-farming: You cannot compete with them, no matter how dedicated. Bots do not have to sleep, they do not have to eat, they do not have to use the restroom. They will run to every spawn as it spawns (based on best-guess temporal spawn rates) in the fastest possible path, and they will almost certainly be faster than you at grabbing it. This is a key reason why RMT is successful.
    As I've said, AHs can be manipulated in various ways. I myself have used some of these tricks to profit; they become more effective as more information is readily available. First you must understand that there are intentionally created price curves. RMT will often stop selling items on the auction house in order to raise the base prices of objects. During this time they will also farm harder to influence players to raise their prices (time = money, and the competition is lower). They then will sell their merchandise back at a higher price. The price curve will fall as competition to liquidate your merchandise raises (typically with RMT item stock). One trick is what I call a material monopoly. These require a good bit of seed money, and incur a bit of risk management. Material monopolies are where you take an ingredient for a common craft, wait for a low price curve and suddenly buy out the entire market. You then repost moderate portions of said ingredient at significant profits. This takes some trial and error, but will ultimately post large margins of profit when done correctly (25% or greater per stack). Often times you need to liquidate the rest of your materials, simply wait until high points in the price curve and post your items again at a small profit per stack. AH taxes are actually a method of both preventing inflation AND this tactic. Who typically has the pockets to do this (and many other AH tactics)? You guessed it, RMT. It's practically robbery, they literally sell you a product and squeeze it back out of you.

    Why Retainers?
    Retainers are a method of decentralizing the market. What the heck does that mean? It boils down to this: one person cannot set a standard price. RMT cannot control the economy. Retainers are actually a fantastic idea and a very good thing. The problem is only with their execution. It's been said before, I'll say it again: market ward names are retarded. Nobody wants to be in the Northern Gafoopleboop, they want to be in the Blacksmith Ward or Weapons Ward. Retainers need to also be organized, people can't pick out specific retainers amidst the crowd (if it even loads). Retainers need icons where they can show that they are selling a specific type of item (weapons, armor, potions, etc). Players need to be able to locate retainers with specific items (read the next section).

    What You Really Want vs. What You Need
    This is actually a complex problem with many solutions. People want instant gratification. They want to stop by a box, click a few buttons, and walk away with their item. That's understandable. What people really need is not an auction house, or that little box. What they need is a directory, a way of locating the retainers with the items they are looking for. There are many ways of solving this problem, and could even be similar to the AH where you are looking for item 'x' and it shows you (on your map) where to find the retainers with this item. Then if you are dedicated you can go out and hunt down each retainer to find the lowest cost. Though this in itself could cost you quite some time and someone may take the lowest price item before you. It may be better to pay slightly more and support a crafter."

    ya they have good points, I knew AHs are corrupt but they are in fact worse than I thought! FFXIV is better without AH.

  • #2
    Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

    I was actually thinking about posting something like this, but just "AH vs Retainers" argument.

    I think that AH did ruin the FFXI economy, but it helped many people get good gear, and actually beable to level without worry of taking hours to search through people's bazaars, or shouting "Looking for XX item, giving YY reward!" for hours on end. I actually did that because there was something that I was after that wasn't even on the AH for three days, and I HATED it.

    They should add something to the retainers area that you can examine, and see who has what (But not for how much they are selling it until you actually go to their shop and see it for your self.)

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    • #3
      Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

      The player who posted that is coming from a background of, "I have no real job, no real life, I sit on my computer 24 hours a day an exhibit RMT behavior."

      Being able to find something and then making up your mind on what to buy is "instant gratification"? Who does this person think he is? RMT in WoW stopped using the AH as their only means of making money precisely because it was cutting into their profits. The free market was working against them, not for them. Does he realize that majority of RMT operations was based on account thievery? They are unscrupulous and will do anything to get ahead and make money, including involving themselves in criminal enterprise.

      Whoever wrote that long winded and very misinformed commentary needs to get updated on the practices of RMT. They no longer abide by any rules and are making it an "industry practice" to illegally procure accounts in order to generate income for their business model.

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      • #4
        Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

        Sorry, couldn't hear the argument over the sound of every other MMO in existence that has an AH system and none of these problems.


        500 hours in MS paint

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        • #5
          Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

          Squeenix's utopian idea of retainers and market wards really falls on it's face when you actually try to use the wards as they are now. Without any sort of directory or search function like Phantasy Star Universe (whom used the exact Retainers and Personal NPC Shop/NPC Bazaar system we have in FFXIV it and had no issues with people finding gear or materials).

          The Uselessness of Wards
          • The first thing you will realise is that while there are stalls, there are a very limited number and certainly not enough to go around. You will also notice that everyone just dumps their retainers on the first ward instance because they know that people will not be willing to search every single retainer in every single ward. What you end up with is a big mess of retainers crammed into a tiny room with no way of knowing who is selling what and for how much.
          • Once you have gotten past the first few wards they are completely empty. Why is that? There is no search function and very few people are willing to check every NPC in ever ward. It is also fairly easy to miss NPCS in the crowded wards because only a few can be displayed on screen at a time to preserve FPS.

          Advertising Issues
          • There is no way to advertise outside of spamming in shout. With an AH system everyone can see that your tunic went up on sale for 1k gil even when you are away. With XIV's system there is no way to do this without pissing off everyone in the area you're standing in.
          • The people that use stalls do not decorate them to show what they sell. The majority of them just go for what looks aesthetically pleasing
          • Taru retainers are annoyingly vast in numbers thanks to the Japanese. They are impossible to spot and target in crowded wards and even worse to target if someone is holding an AFK bazaar. I have no idea how they sell stuff since I personally always find it easier to notice a Galka or Elvaan Retainer than a Taru.

          It Harms The Market
          • There is no way to barter with the retainer system as there is no way of knowing who a retainer belongs to. With an Ah system you can find out who is selling, tell them you intend to buy but are wondering if they are willing to go lower. It's kinda hard to do that with an NPC or person who is clearly AFK Bazaar-ing while sleeping.
          • It discourages trade to start. This system encourages groups of people to only trade among each other because it is the only way of reliably knowing what you can get and from who. The system does nothing to encourage you to buy or sell to people outside of your little network of friends or contacts so gil just keeps circulating among small groups of trading partners rather than throughout the game. In the long run this will put the majority of gil into the hands of RMT groups.
          • It encourages price fixing in the long run and destroys competition. If everyone agrees on a universal price then what incentive do people have to raise or lower prices (unless accounting for inflation)

          It Encourages RMT in the Long Run
          • If people do not know the value of their goods, RMT groups will easily be able to exploit it. They will also be able to dictate prices according to their own agendas if the playerbase does not. But how can people agree on a reasonable base price for an item then they don't know what to charge in the first place?

          It Harms Crafters More Than it Helps them
          • Tied in with the above points. People do not know how much goods really are worth and it allows crafters to run around with no check on how much they can charge. I have seen people trying to sell Bronze Daggers, something that would cost 5k Gil at most assuming you bought the materials needed to make the blade and handle from NPCs yet I have seen prices up to 50k Gil being charged for one. Hell I sold one myself for 40k and I got all of the items for free, since I went out and gathered them myself and had a friend make the Dagger Handle with the mats I gathered (I made the blade and the final product myself). The prices that some people think they can get away with will piss off the buyer at the end of the day and discourage them from buying from any crafters outside of their own little circle of friends.
          • If a crafter sets a price too low due to not knowing how much an item is really worth to the playerbase, RMTs can easily snap them up and start dictating prices much in the same way they do with an AH system anyway.
          • Tied to the above points, people will try to sell parts and materials for extortionate prices due to them overestimating the value of their goods. Gouging adventurers just to make a profit is not a particularly very wise move as Recettear shows us.
          Rahal Gerrant - Balmung - 188 DRK
          Reiko Takahashi
          - Balmung - 182 AST, 191 BLM, 182 SCH, 188 SMN
          Haters Gonna Hate



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          • #6
            Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

            The OP has no understanding of economics. Crafting is unprofitable in most MMOs because lots of people want to craft for fun and/or skillups regardless of whether or not there is any profit in it, oversaturating the market for finished goods and depleting the market for materials. The profitable thing to do in that kind of market is to supply raw materials and buy your finished goods from the swarms of people skilling up and selling their stuff cheap.

            The AH mainly serves to prevent random price fluctuations that get ordinary players ripped off and benefit the people with the most time to study and exploit them -- i.e., RMT.

            And RMT dominate farming and gathering because they put enormous amounts of time into it, far more than players who have other RL jobs or school can possibly do (or, usually, would want to if they could). The AH has nothing to do with it. The solution to RMT problems is to find and ban the RMT, not to screw up the rest of the economy.
            Defeated: Maat, Divine Might, Fenrir, Kirin, Cactrot Rapido, Xolotl, Diabolos Prime, Kurrea, 9/10 Dynamis Bosses (missing Tav), Promathia, Proto-Ultima, Proto-Omega, 4 Jailers, Apocalypse Nigh, 6/6 Nyzul Bosses
            RDM90, PLD90, DRG90, COR90, SCH90, BLU54
            All Nations Rank 10, ZMs & PMs Complete, AUMs Complete, Captain, Nyzul Floor 100 (5 Weapons, 4 WS), Medal of Altana, WotG Mission 15, 1/3 Addons Complete, 9/9 Abyssea Main Quests, 6/6 Caturae

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            • #7
              Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

              It discourages trade to start. This system encourages groups of people to only trade among each other because it is the only way of reliably knowing what you can get and from who. The system does nothing to encourage you to buy or sell to people outside of your little network of friends or contacts so gil just keeps circulating among small groups of trading partners rather than throughout the game. In the long run this will put the majority of gil into the hands of RMT groups.
              Sorry, you just had quite a leap in logic here. How does it play into the hands of RMT? The RMT have all the same chances you do, the difference being that their 24/7 play advantage is severely undercut by there not being a centralized place to search for prices to compare.

              RMT function in a very exclusive way, if what you say is true and people and RMT alike form circles to trade within the difference would be that normal players don't think like RMT. They're going to see the gaps in their Linkshells and friends and seek to establish new contacts. Not only that, you're going to persue the company you enjoy having around you, which is why you'll have those gaps. In other words, you're acting like a normal human being.

              RMT do no do that. They're going to plan for every contingency so they don't have to look outside the circle and they're not going to speak in-game. They are not going to expand contacts outside of buyers - and to speak to them is to out yourself.

              Otherwise, they're going to play the racial archtypes and create "uniforms." Remember back when every RMT was a Rank 2 San'dorian Dragoon that did little else but farm Middle Delkfutt's Tower? Or the predictable racial structure or sky farming RMT? Galka PLDs, Mithra THF, Taru BLMs. Its like that in just about every MMO. It shows they're working a job, not playing a game.

              If people do not know the value of their goods, RMT groups will easily be able to exploit it. They will also be able to dictate prices according to their own agendas if the playerbase does not. But how can people agree on a reasonable base price for an item then they don't know what to charge in the first place?
              Oh, I dunno. Research like everyone else does and sell what's consistent with the demands of the region? Know your niche but don't bank on them?

              I don't see how this system gives RMT groups any advantage other than sticking out like a sore thumb.

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              • #8
                Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

                It would all depend on what inconvenieces the players more, RMT activities or the measures taken to try to prevent RMT activities in the game.
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                • #9
                  Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

                  Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                  The RMT have all the same chances you do, the difference being that their 24/7 play advantage is severely reinforced by there not being a centralized place to search for prices to compare.
                  FTFY. The lack of centralization and resulting variation in prices benefits people who have lots of time to study the market. I.e., RMT. Regular players are going to want to buy the gear they need so they can get back to fighting/guildleves/etc. without looking through 9999 bazaars first.

                  Bazaar arbitrage could be a profit opportunity (I know some people who have done it even in FFXI, but it's severely limited by competition from the AH for most items), but it's boring as hell. Guess who's going to spend hours and hours doing it anyway, and get the profit.

                  People who bitch about the AH from their perspective as a potential seller tend to forget that they are also buyers. Unless you have literally never bought a single item from the AH in your entire FFXI playing career, you've already benefited from the existence of the AH, almost certainly more than you were harmed by it (if you were harmed at all). And the same will be true in FFXIV.

                  Competition and standardizing prices are good for buyers, and while some players do a lot of selling, practically *everyone* does a substantial amount of buying. That's why the AH exists in FFXI and why it should exist in FFXIV.
                  Defeated: Maat, Divine Might, Fenrir, Kirin, Cactrot Rapido, Xolotl, Diabolos Prime, Kurrea, 9/10 Dynamis Bosses (missing Tav), Promathia, Proto-Ultima, Proto-Omega, 4 Jailers, Apocalypse Nigh, 6/6 Nyzul Bosses
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                  • #10
                    Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

                    http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/new...tml#post900010

                    They are making changes.

                    Originally posted by TheGrandMom View Post
                    For example, we are currently looking into options that will provide players with precise information as to which items are located in which market areas, or the ability to seek out specific items without the need for speaking to retainers, and more.
                    Originally posted by Feba
                    But I mean I do not mind a good looking man so long as I do not have to view his penis.
                    Originally posted by Taskmage
                    God I hate my periods. You think passing a clot through a vagina is bad? Try it with a penis.
                    Originally posted by DakAttack
                    ...I'm shitting dicks out of my eyeballs in excitement for the next bestgreating game of all time ever.

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                    • #11
                      Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

                      The reason WoW didn't suffer from RMT exploiting the AH is because the AH was not an integral part in obtaining gear. Most of the good gear came from dungeons and raid bosses and were bind on pickup which means that you cannot sell it to other players. Instead, a player must earn their items by defeating bosses or doing quests. There are of course alternatives to these items attainable through crafting or rare drops but those were too unreliable to be exploited by RMT. Most crafters were in it for themselves with those of high skill being able to use crafter specific gear or create their own high level crafted gear.
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                      • #12
                        Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

                        Originally posted by TheGrandMom View Post
                        the ability to seek out specific items without the need for speaking to retainers,
                        I just hope they add an option to teleport you to where the retainer is, and shows the prices so you can compare...

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                        • #13
                          Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

                          Originally posted by Takelli View Post
                          I just hope they add an option to teleport you to where the retainer is, and shows the prices so you can compare...
                          Well I'm thinking that they will have a search for every ward, so you would have to search multiple wards to compare prices (hopefully they'll show the prices cause it would be a bonehead move not to). Once you decided, it would list the name of the npc and you'd know what ward he/she was on and would have to go there. I doubt they'll get fancy and add a right to the npc teleport option and I don't think I'd want it anyway if it cost even more of my already precious anima.
                          Originally posted by Feba
                          But I mean I do not mind a good looking man so long as I do not have to view his penis.
                          Originally posted by Taskmage
                          God I hate my periods. You think passing a clot through a vagina is bad? Try it with a penis.
                          Originally posted by DakAttack
                          ...I'm shitting dicks out of my eyeballs in excitement for the next bestgreating game of all time ever.

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                          • #14
                            Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

                            Originally posted by TheGrandMom View Post
                            I doubt they'll get fancy and add a right to the npc teleport option and I don't think I'd want it anyway if it cost even more of my already precious anima
                            I don't see why it should cost any anima to teleport to a npc in a bazaar, I think that would be just plain silly. But then again, its SE though... so yea...

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                            • #15
                              Re: AH is a bad thing, anyone agree FFXIV should not have AH?

                              Originally posted by Takelli View Post
                              I just hope they add an option to teleport you to where the retainer is, and shows the prices so you can compare...
                              But then this becomes closer and closer to the AH system where the market is centralized allowing RMT to dictate prices.

                              Honestly I didn't have a problem looking through bazaars. It's just that the UI is so slow that it becomes a pain in the ass. If the bazaar screen popped up immediately after clicking the browse button (this is also an issue. is there a macro function to directly browse someone? or do you have to go through menus to do it?) I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this system.

                              The more I think of it, the only way they can truly stop the RMT through the market system is to make it as god awfully frustrating as possible to compare prices so that people end up just buying the first item they see.
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