Synthesizing

[awesomeOmnislashing]

Re: Synthesizing

My best guess, and one that I've heard spoken of elsewhere, is that magical craftsmanship deals with DOH classes in which their stats are more towards the "magical side"

for instance Alchemy needs intelligence, so if my guess is correct, then that would mean its magical craft

and Blacksmith= Strength , so I think thats regular craftsman ship

then again, as I write this out it seems more and more retarded. so IDK =] Aeni's advice is best, just balance it out for now

[Zempten]

Re: Synthesizing

when you do synthesizing on your own how far of a level gap is there between your target recipe and your level? or is it just based on the amount of SP return (like 200+?)

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

It's based off of your exp gained (not skill points, but the physical experience points)

For example:

Say, I'm a Rank 21 Alchemist and then I attempt to synthesize Crab Oil. I have 2 Helmet Crabs so I drop them into my synthesis box and click on the menus to get it started. When I have completed the synthesis I end up with the following figures:

248 Alchemy Points gained.
1168 Experience Points gained.

To figure out what the rank difference between the recipe and my Alchemy, I use the following formula:

[ ( Experience Points gained rounded to nearest 50) - 1,000 ] / 50

So basically in the above case it would be (1150 - 1000) / 50 or 3. This means that the recipe is Rank 24. If I rank up to 22 in Alchemy and attempt the recipe, then I should be getting around 1,100 experience points (i.e., 1,076 - 1,125) and at 23 it would be around 1,050 experience points (i.e., 1,030 - 1,075) It is a rough estimate so if you get something around halfway between rounding up or down and consistently get this "neutral" value then you need to just figure on estimating the rank (i.e., R23 to R24) at least until you start to get around 1,000 which is the base experience you gain if your craft is the same level as the recipe.

[Zempten]

Re: Synthesizing

Alright, so when you craft you try to aim for 3 levels from your current rank?

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

Alright, so when you craft you try to aim for 3 levels from your current rank?

It depends on a few things:

-Gear
-Training
-Affinity

The order of that list is the priority for which you should focus on. Gear helps because it boosts your stats relative to your current rank to a level that is higher and thus allows you to take on considerably higher rank recipes. Training helps to temper off failures and can also help to alleviate or smoothen out failure streaking (i.e., RNG ZERO DIVIDE LOOP) Affinity can help with elemental stability surrounding the synthesizing but this gets tricky beyond Rank 20 and I think the better bang for the buck will still lie mostly with gear and training first.

At R23 BSM I was able to craft R28-R30 recipes. At R25 ARM I can craft R29-31 recipes. At R22 TAN I could not handle R27 recipes. Again, it's individualized and you need to experiment to figure out what you're capable of handling. Generally, yes, 2-3 ranks up is optimal, but that doesn't mean you couldn't handle 5-8 ranks up, for example or that doesn't guarantee you won't have a 60% failure rate of just 3 ranks up.

[Zempten]

Re: Synthesizing

Could you tell me what your wearing on your BSM please? I'm currently 29 but i'm unsure what to go for

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

Could you tell me what your wearing on your BSM please? I'm currently 29 but i'm unsure what to go for

Canvas Beret (Pink) +1
Canvas Doublet (Pink)
Vintage Half Apron
Canvas Halfgloves (Pink)
Canvas Slops (Pink)
Leather Thighboots (red)
Iron Cross-pein Hamer
Bronze File

Craftsmanship 66
Magic Craftsmanship 46
Control 43

If you really want to adhere to "favors" then go with specs instead of the Beret. However, I haven't noticed anything off kilter wearing the Beret which has control and lots of it.

[Dux]

Re: Synthesizing

(((Experience Points gained rounded to nearest 50) - 1,000) / 50)

If that is correct then Undyed Canvas is Rank 29 WVR which means I still need a few more levels on WVR before I can start as I am currently only Rank 25. I was hoping to have it done by now but holiday to Hong Kong and then sunny Australia got in the way. However now I am back I am considering doing a +/- 3 Rank test instead of a +/- 2 Rank to get more data out. Unless somebody has a strong reason for me to cotinue this investigation I probably won't come back to +Craftsmanship after this testing and move onto testing +Control.

This does mean however I might have to break a habit and actually buy the crystal/shards which until now I have refused to do. The thought of departing with my precious gil isn't a happy one.

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

This does mean however I might have to break a habit and actually buy the crystal/shards which until now I have refused to do. The thought of departing with my precious gil isn't a happy one.

Have you tried looking into alchemy for that? Not sure how much lightning shards you own but that could be a possibility.

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

Some changes to the way rank is calculated for recipes and these are preliminary results (pulled from Eve's post over at YG)

Rank 4 bronze nuggets at rank 16:
Quality gained: 115
XP: 168
Base XP for -12: 150

Rank 2 bronze ingot at rank 16:
Quality gained: 124
XP: 90
Base XP for -14: 80

This makes a slightly-more-complete table:
-14: 80
-13: ?
-12: 150
-11: 200
-10: 250
-9: 350
-8: 450
-7: 550
-6: 650
-5: 750
-4: 800
-3: 850
-2: 900
-1: 950
0: 1000
1: 1200
2: 1400
3: 1600
4: 1800
5: 2000
6: 2200
7: 2400
8: 2600
9: 2800
10: 3000

Or, in summary:
Above = 200 more per level
1 to 5 below = 50 less per level
6 or more below seem to require referencing the table.

[Dux]

Re: Synthesizing

Hi All

Well it took it's sweet time to get here but I finally managed to run a bit more testing, it's not as complete as I would like due to a number of factors so I will continue to chip away at it over time and post again with any further findings.

Terminology
Rank Gap: The number of ranks between the target synthesis rank and the rank at which you can sucessfully make that item, ignoring all hard caps.

Test Approach
Receipe under test was Undyed Canvas (Rank 29 according to YG Undyed Canvas - Item - Final Fantasy XIV Database - ffxiv.yg.com)
All attempts were done at Half Moon
All attempts were done with Common synthesis support as requested by the receipe.
All attempts were Main Hand only
All attempts were using Iron Needle in my mainhand. I tried using Bronze Needle as my previous test however the failure rate was so high it was impracticle to do so.
I started testing at Rank 26 Weaver which is 3 ranks below the target synthesis rank.

Assumptions
My stats levels are so low none of them are into diminishing returns.

Analysis
It is interesting that using Bronze Needle I was unable to run my test at -3 ranks below the target synthesis rank and that after switching to Iron Needle the test ran with an acceptable failure rate (defined as me not wanting to smash my monitor to pieces). It wasn't that I was receiving constant Fail work units with the Bronze needle it was that my Sucess and Sucess Generics were not giving me enough Progress relative to the Durability loss.

The Full 100 Synthesis
Overall I saw no change between +0 and +10 craftsmanship for Sucess and Sucess Generic with Fail work units showing a reasonable increase. However when you dig a little bit deeper into the numbers something unusual can be seen.
The full breakdown of the data can be seen here. imagefra.me
Sucess Units showed an increase of +0.77%
Sucess Generics showed an increase of +0.13%
Failed showed an increase of +10.88%

-3 Below Target Synthesis Rank
After isolating the data for Rank 26 which is 3 ranks below the target synthesis rank we see some very unusual numbers. According to the data there was a decrease of over 7% for Sucess and Sucess Generic and a smaller increase in the Fail units when compared to the full 100 synthesis view.
Sucess Units showed an decrease of -7.49%
Sucess Generics showed an decrease of -7.69%
Failed showed an increase of +8.35.%
The full breakdown of the data can be seen here. imagefra.me

-2 Below Target Synthesis Rank
After isolating the data for Rank 27 which is 2 ranks below the target synthesis rank then the numbers become much more uniform and more like the data collected previously with undyed cotton cloth.
Sucess Units showed an increase of +16.70%
Sucess Generics showed an decrease of +14.46%
Failed showed an increase of +15.06%
The full breakdown of the data can be seen here. imagefra.me

Conclusions
The numbers gathered here do not directly corroborate my previous data on undyed cotton cloth. It is uncertain if this is because of changes in the crafting algorithm or if one or both sets of data are in fact flawed in some way. The only conclusions I can draw from this right now are:
1) Something did change between -3 and -2 ranks away from target synthesis rank so more testing needs to be done on this.
2) I need more data for -1, at cap, +1, +2 and +3 over target synthesis cap.

Speculation
What is a Rank Gap? Conceptually I believe a Rank Gap is not an discrete mechanism inside the crafting algorithm, it is more like the product of how the algorithm works in practise. Trying to define the Rank Gap is tricky but if you are familiar with FFXIs Samurai class then it is akin to the 5-hit build. In FFXI there isn't a special bit of code that was made just for 5 hit builds it came about due to behaviour of the TP system as a whole, mixed in with the properties of the gear and some clever person(s) who made a table that states how much Store TP is need to create 7,6,5 and 4 hit builds. And so I believe there may be a simialr table that can be exploited for crafting and this is what the Rank Gap is.
Ignoring any hard caps my testing suggest that the more stats you have the bigger the Rank Gap will be before it becomes impossible to synthesis a particular item. I do not have enough data to say if the stats increase between Bronze and Iron Needle increases the Rank Gap by 1 Rank, or if it was a single stat or a combination of stats that were important as I have no reference points for Bronze Needle and no test results into +Control. However if this by-product really does exists then it would be a great table to get right as people will be able to optimse their crafting gear in the same way Samurai's optimse their combat gear for maximum DPS.

The data gather at 3 ranks below target synthesis are confusing however it may be that these numbers are a result of the Rank Gap I mentioned earlier; perhaps with better gear the numbers would have been different and the numbers are not a result of +Craftsmanship but instead a result of a lack of other stats.

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

Analysis
It is interesting that using Bronze Needle I was unable to run my test at -3 ranks below the target synthesis rank and that after switching to Iron Needle the test ran with an acceptable failure rate (defined as me not wanting to smash my monitor to pieces). It wasn't that I was receiving constant Fail work units with the Bronze needle it was that my Sucess and Sucess Generics were not giving me enough Progress relative to the Durability loss.

I just wanted to comment on this part of the post. There is (still yet unconfirmed but to be explained by SE at a later time) a "soft cap" on gear. If you're > 10 ranks on an item then it conveys some penalty to your synthesis. It's difficult to explain because the results are random and I believe it's a form of "chaos" on the penalty, which is inexplicably just that ... chaotic, no reason, no logical explanation. There is a similar system in some single player RPG I played a long time ago where certain conditions placed you in that situation. I think I had talked about this in another thread about appropriate ranked gear and based on my observations:

1. Tools, Weapons and other similar type of gear must be equivalent to your current rank and no more than 10 ranks below (or if there exists an upgrade in the interim).

Ex: Rank 22 BSM should not be using Birdsbeak Hammer (12) and should not be using Crowsbeak Hammer (32) when there is a Fortified Birdsbeak Hammer (17) and Iron Cross-Pein Hammer (22)

(Note: Players still do not get this ... and I'm going to bet an inordinate amount of gil that they do not realize that the game isn't broken ... but because of what they do, they are hurting themselves in terms of success, being able to handle recipes up to 10 ranks higher, etc ... I saw someone who posts on this forum and is a Rank 16 weaver with a Silver Needle (32) which is a no-no)

2. Gear must always convey an upgrade over existing rank appropriate solutions AND should have affinity with the class. If neither is true then there will be issues with experience in both combat and gathering/crafting. I still see players using rank inappropriate gear which does nothing than create problems and I want to inform players that they can save money (less repairs) and get better performance (affinity) if they paid attention to the gear rank and favor.

Ex. It's okay to wear some gear >5 ranks over their current rank if it favors their current class and/or conveys an actual upgrade (you can tell by watching your stats sheet) but usually you try to keep within an appropriate rank range. Gear is generally a bit less harsh with penalty when compared with tools/weapons but is no less prone to "chaotic" situations. If you notice that you take an inordinate amount of damage from monsters even with "rank appropriate" leves or fighting monsters at your rank then it's a good indication you have gear that is not rank appropriate and/or do not favor the current class. A lot of players choose looks over everything and that's fine if they can live with that choice but they shouldn't blame SE that they are having problems with crafting or combat as a result of that choice.

Note: This comment isn't meant for Dux specifically but is to clarify on the experience of Dux (he was testing stuff so he was going for minimum stats on that test) and then a general comment for the rest of the readers regarding the current affinity system. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't in effect.

[Dux]

Re: Synthesizing

There is (still yet unconfirmed but to be explained by SE at a later time) a "soft cap" on gear. If you're > 10 ranks on an item then it conveys some penalty to your synthesis. It's difficult to explain because the results are random and I believe it's a form of "chaos" on the penalty, which is inexplicably just that ... chaotic, no reason, no logical explanation.

I have been wondering about this for a while now and gave it a bit of thought on the way into work this morning and here are my thoughts.

Ignoring using gear which is too high a rank for you which SE already gave us absolute assurance is bad and is also trivial to test in-game due to the statistics screen I am still very confused about the whole gear which is lower rank than yourself and this whole job afinity business.

The body piece I am using during my testing is a Cotton Doublet Cotton Doublet - Item - Final Fantasy XIV Database - ffxiv.yg.com which is optimum rank 16. The data I collected against Undyed Canvas as a Rank 26 WVR is 3 ranks below the target synthesis rank and exactly 10 ranks over the optimum rank for that body piece. The data, such that it is, shows a 7% drop in Sucess and Success Generic work units which is not accounted for in the > 10 ranks rule as it is is still not > 10. With my speculative hat on I can think of three things which could support this > 10 rule.
First we could speculate that the magic number is in fact 9 and not 10 which would mean Cotton Coublet is now bad at Rank 26.
Second we could speculate that because WVR is not in the "Favour" list in this item it is now causing the negative behaviour.
Third we could speculate that the combination of the two things above is causing the effect..

Using just the data at Rank 26 we can't prove or disprove anything but fortunatly I have the data for Rank 27 and it is this data that really illustrates my lack of understanding and confidence in these speculations. At Rank 27 Weaver which is 2 ranks below target synthesis rank and 11 ranks over the optimum rank for the body piece the body piece appears to provide a +15% benefit across the board in all work unit types. This means the body piece is having the opposite effect at Rank 27 and also having twice as much impact when compared to R26 (+15% instead of -7.5%). This goes in direct opposition to the theory that gear too low has a negative impact. Also if you look at the "Favour" list for the body piece WVR is not on it again suggesting that there is no negative impact for using it with a job not in that list.

I don't have any answers for anybody and hopefully when I collect more data something will jump out at me. However right now all I can say is that there is no evidence to support the idea that low ranking gear generates a negative effect and there is no evidence to show that not being in the favour list has any effect.

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

I don't have any answers for anybody and hopefully when I collect more data something will jump out at me. However right now all I can say is that there is no evidence to support the idea that low ranking gear generates a negative effect and there is no evidence to show that not being in the favour list has any effect.

It becomes more apparent if you can test with a recipe between 8 and 10 ranks above yours. I'm actually at a good 60% success in BSM crafting things up to 11 ranks higher than myself (1,200+ SP gains) but I choose not to do it unless I have to because it's quite taxing and requires too much focus on my part and there are nights where I just want to mash the Standard button over and over rather than think too much about what I'm doing.

But, going back to the topic, yes, you can show definitively that a change can occur with not using favored gear ("All Class" is the "safest" type of gear to use) and using gear that's not rank appropriate ... both at the low end and at the higher end.

[Dux]

Re: Synthesizing

But, going back to the topic, yes, you can show definitively that a change can occur with not using favored gear ("All Class" is the "safest" type of gear to use) and using gear that's not rank appropriate ... both at the low end and at the higher end.

I am not sure how you would create a test that would prove this. If you can recommend the gear required to test this and specifcy a receipe you would like tested I can probably arrange some time to test it. Any suggestions?