Synthesizing

[Dux]

Re: Synthesizing

I'm gonna do a naked versus gear test to see how effective gear is. I'm not sure how many total synths I can do w/o leveling. Gonna have to prep for this first which will cause me to pickup an extra 1,500 to 2,000 SP.

I'll give additional details and hopefully results later.

I would be very intrested in hearing what exactly are you planning to test. Remember that removing all your gear testing a few times and then putting all your gear back on doesn't prove anything. The sample size will be too small and you have no idea at all about what stat gives what benefit or the quantity of the benefit received per stat. These problems are why my test was so laboriously slow and time consuming and why I still haven't got the resources to run the 2nd test.

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

I actually didn't run this test because of things that came up IRL. I had prepped the night before and had stacks of dodoskin leather ready to be turned into vamps.

My testing was a gear versus no gear test. It has nothing to do with individual stats on what they contribute to the whole crafting experience. It was simply a matter of whether or not there is a significant enough impact that makes it worthwhile to continually spend hundreds of thousands of gil over the course of your crafting career (I suspect this will run into the millions at 40+)

What I was going to note down was the starting durability and quality and the ending values of those two. The problem that I ended up envisioning when I gave it some further thought was that the orb colors would also have to be noted because it does significantly impact the process and your choice or usage of abilities to counteract (or enhance) the effects of these orbs do directly affect your crafting outcome.

That would've been far more tedious than I would've had time for. It would mean that I could spend an hour on just 10 attempts and by then, the moonphase change would likely to occur before you can reach a proper size sample (i.e., ~60 to 100)

Because of that and because of some issues IRL I was unable to pursue my test. I think one of these days I will do another kind of test in which I will strip my gear off but focus on Standard Syntheses and the results for every orb it comes across. That might be a more interesting test and can be done with fewer attempts because the number of orbs encountered per attempt will never go below a certain threshold (minimum progression requirement for a completion)

One important thing I noticed that you can check for yourself. The amount of crafting stats you receive from your main hand tool (or offhand if you're using it) seems to be in the majority of the total bonus you receive from all sources, including gear and food buffs. This seems to indicate that it's relatively possible to conduct the majority of your synthesizing with just that tool alone. Something everyone should think about.

[Dux]

Re: Synthesizing

My testing was a gear versus no gear test. It has nothing to do with individual stats on what they contribute to the whole crafting experience. It was simply a matter of whether or not there is a significant enough impact that makes it worthwhile to continually spend hundreds of thousands of gil over the course of your crafting career (I suspect this will run into the millions at 40+)

Maybe I am a bit slow but I am still not clear exactly what it is you are trying to test and prove. If you are trying to prove if wearing gear is better or worse than not wearing gear then there are some things I would consider before creating my tests.

1) Casual observation and my data on +Craftsmanship suggest there is a relationship between Your Crafting Rank vs Synthesis Target Rank. This should be reflected in your testing as the benefit of gear vs no gear could change depending on this.
2) I have no data on how +Control works or if it is affected by your crafting rank vs synthesis target rank. It could be that +Control gear is always useful no matter what rank you are and it could also effect the type of work unit outcome you get (Sucess, Fail, Sucess Generic) which has a large impact on the mean progress. Performing a gear on vs gear off test could very well miss this.
3) This test does not deal with gear damage either. It might be that crafting in red gear is better than no gear and also incurs no cost, it really depends on how +Control and +Craftsmanship really work which I don't fully understand yet.

What I was going to note down was the starting durability and quality and the ending values of those two. The problem that I ended up envisioning when I gave it some further thought was that the orb colors would also have to be noted because it does significantly impact the process and your choice or usage of abilities to counteract (or enhance) the effects of these orbs do directly affect your crafting outcome.

You can manage this variance by focusing on the mean values and ensuring you have a large data set; the variance from the orb colour should be smoothed out over the entire dataset and any trends present will still be identifiable.

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

It's really late my way (I suspect it's afternoon for you in the UK) so I'm just gonna do a quick response.

I've not (personally) tested this but a friend just recently purchased training and noted that there's a noticeable difference with results. I was under the impression that training would just do away with the need for support (in certain recipes) but it seems that not having training does incur some kind of negative result with or without support.

The problem with testing that I'm finding is that results are going to be different when you factor in attributes, how you distributed those stat points, elemental affinity and physical levels. Yes, physical level has a noticeable impact on your crafting. My BSM has stagnated somewhat and in one rank my physical level progressed 14+ ranks. During that time there was a huge change in the way syntheses behaved. I shifted away from pure STR/DEX and higher Fire affinity and more balanced and spread out (STR/DEX/VIT and MND) The result is I'm noticing failures in BSM a lot more frequently, elemental instability and very bad failures. This is something that needs to be noted.

[Dux]

Re: Synthesizing

Yes its lunch time here so I am posting my lunch break, gives me something to do.

The problem with testing that I'm finding is that results are going to be different when you factor in attributes, how you distributed those stat points, elemental affinity and ....

On the surface this appears to be important to the testing but actually it isn't. As long as your phsyical attributes / affinities do not change between your gear on and gear off testing it makes no difference at all. The whole point of testing is to identify trends and the existance of a trend is not affected by a static affinity/point allocation.
That isn't to say these things don't matter in the overall mechanic of crafting but this isn't what you are planning to test, as long as they are controlled and measured they can be classed as static values in the algorithm and ignored.

Yes, physical level has a noticeable impact on your crafting.

This is another test in itself, I am P.Level 50 so this is now beyond my ability to test.

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

That isn't to say these things don't matter in the overall mechanic of crafting but this isn't what you are planning to test, as long as they are controlled and measured they can be classed as static values in the algorithm and ignored.

I have to challenge you over this because it's not just experiences from players but the official word out of Lodestone is that, yes, attributes do matter and to what degree is what is in question. It's not exactly anecdotal for me to experience a shift in the way my syntheses has changed in behavior and you could do the testing yourself if you got time to kill. Essentially refunding all of your points and then redistributing them and measuring results is probably the best way to go but my experience was unique because the craft which supposedly was my main stagnated enough so that roughly 14 physical ranks difference and a redistrubtion of stats was more than enough to cause massive changes to my BSM experiences.

Look over at my screenshots in the Media Forum and study those results I was obtaining, noting the amount of quailty as well as the types of HQ (and frequencies) These are not over 100 or 200 attempts but a rather small number, say, 10 in a day. It's not luck either because there's no way you can attribute luck to a particular experience over several days leading into weeks and then having this one day change on a dime.

On the flipside, my ARM is going swimmingly well, to the point that it's scaring me. For how long is this sunshine experience is going to last is a cosmic question but because I did invest a considerably amount of points into Vitality which I did not beforehand as another class lines up well with Lodestone and their "recommendations" for distribution of attributes.

[Dux]

Re: Synthesizing

Apologise if I have not explained myself very well but I feel you have not really understood what I am trying to explain. My point is not really about what you are planning it is about how you are planning to test it. For my test I tried to really pin down exactly what it was I was trying to do. I tried to construct a test that would generate useful data that proved I did test what I set out to test and also allow other people to cross-reference and critique my data so any errors could be identified and corrected.

So for my test the purpose was clearly defined which was the effect of an additional +10 Craftsmanship on standard work units and I only change one input at a time specifically switching from +0 Craftsmanship to +10 Craftsmanship.

So I am not saying that elemental affinity does not affect crafting what I am trying to do is to understand exactly what it is you are trying to test and help you gather data that proves beyond reasonable doubt you have tested it. The problem with badly constructed tests is that the only outcomes you can draw from them are very generalised ones such as "gear makes it better" which whilst useful in general doesn't increase our understanding of how or why it makes it better which is really the point of performing the test in the first place.

Ultimately it comes down to what you want to do, do you want the general answer in which case your test will be fine (as long as you clearly define it and don't change too many things at once) or do you want to understand the how and why in which case your test approach needs more definition and significantly reduced scope.

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

So I am not saying that elemental affinity does not affect crafting what I am trying to do is to understand exactly what it is you are trying to test and help you gather data that proves beyond reasonable doubt you have tested it. The problem with badly constructed tests is that the only outcomes you can draw from them are very generalised ones such as "gear makes it better" which whilst useful in general doesn't increase our understanding of how or why it makes it better which is really the point of performing the test in the first place.

What gave me pause was not what I was trying to accomplish with my test but how my test should be conducted. As you say, it's probably better to narrow your test to only one specific variable or trend to produce the most accurate results you could possibly obtain. But, I contend that this is all moot if the underlying variables were not addressed and that the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it was an exercise in futility. Here's what I could've done had I been given a generous amount of time and have the system been set up slightly differently than what SE has adopted for character development.

-Refund all stats to zero for both attributes and elemental resistances. Neutrality is king in testing and there's no better neutrality than to zero out variables you can control.

-Use no abilities like Maker's Muse and Fulfillment.

-Recipes used must be the same level so that means it's far better to start a test after you have just gained the next rank to insure you do not have a break in rank in the number of attempts.

-Gear must be appropriate ranked and must be repaired to full before attempts. All gear must be listed. Tools must be repaired to full. If possible, have 2 additional sets of the same gear and same quality on hand and as well as tools in the event of gear damage (or you can manually swap out before this occurs)

^ This is what I ended up coming to a conclusion on and that made me stopped running any test at all. So the test is moot since the issue is that the controlled environment is very biased and tainted. This may affect results significantly which may explain why trends are expressed in such a small way when they may in fact be quite large but diluted by factors such as resistances and attributes.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=2181925

^ This is my stat distribution right now. Notice that as high as strength is in comparison to the other stats, my BSM experience have not been as positive as it used to be at R10-16 before I switched main combat roles from Marauder to Gladiator and made the distribution change. Also note that my resistances may seem out of whack because I decided to hell with calculating distribution and just evenly spreading my points there ... starting at R41. Ice is high because my character base stat at R1 leaned heavily towards Ice and I thought it would make a difference to continue that distribution ... but I didn't notice any good from doing that so whatever.

[Dux]

Re: Synthesizing

Giood to see you are on the right track, I would suggest one small change, I dont think the testing is pointless because of the unknown factors such as your physical and elemental affinity.

What you can do is you can state an assumption that allows you to proceed then you can always come back to your data later if the assumption is proved wrong. Exploratory testing is about working out what is correct it is not about getting it right first time so there is nothing wrong with making assumptions that turn out to be incorrect. Don't get hung up on everything needing to be perfect first time, exploratory testing doesn't work that way.

Like in my testing I made the assumption that phsycial stats and elemental affinity are only minor factors in the complete synthesis algorithm and changes in these stats would not significantly effect the outcome of the very specific thing I was trying to test. My rationale was based on previous experience, a little bit of common sense about the mathematics required for this assumption to be false and the fact this is a game that encourages you to level multiple classes on one character and as such have a variable points allocation. And even if my assumption is wrong it doesn't matter because as long as I don't change these unknown stats between tests the +0 Craftsmanship and +10 Craftsmanship relationship will still hold true (because the unknown variables have not changed) and so I still produce useful data, it just means additional tests will need to be defined in the future.

I would recommend you run your test, write it all down, what you plan to test, your assumptions, how you are going to test it and send it to me if you like me to review it then do it. Even if all your assumptions turn out to be wrong your testing just helped you generate a whole new bunch of questions that need answering and also provides you with a good idea of the tests that need to be performed to answer these new questions, its win win.

On a side note I nearly have enough earth shards now to run the undyed canvas test, although I am not entirely convinced that undyed canvas is R29 (YG) because the dyed ones show up as R25 (YG). As I need to test +/- 2 levels from the optimium synthesis level its really important I have an accurate rank for this synthesis, this makes me a sad panda.

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

On a side note I nearly have enough earth shards now to run the undyed canvas test, although I am not entirely convinced that undyed canvas is R29 (YG) because the dyed ones show up as R25 (YG). As I need to test +/- 2 levels from the optimium synthesis level its really important I have an accurate rank for this synthesis, this makes me a sad panda.

The formula used is [ (1000 - [exp gained rounded to nearest 50]) / 50 ] If the value is negative, that is the number of ranks that you're below the recipe and if it is positive that is the number of ranks you're above the recipe. Obviously it's better to get an average from 3 attempts (which is considered minimum required to get within 99% accuracy) and then rounding that average to the nearest 50 before plugging the value into the formula. This is how you derive the rank of a particular recipe.

There is another formula which the above is derived from which uses statistical evaluation and hinges upon the factor variance of quality differences from beginning and end of a synthesis and you use a pair of syntheses to determine the rank of the recipe. The formula was purported to have an accuracy near 100% and this derived formula is accurate within 5% and is far easier to use. Remember, it is the EXP value and not the SP value that you use. If you use EXP values from LEVES then you need to remember that leves boost EXP gains by 50% or 1.5x the base. You need to take the base value to use this formula. So far that I've used this formula, my experience has reflected a 100% accuracy.

Edit:

I'm also planning on running a test in the near future to determine rank differences in gear with crafting. I plan to run a test using gear that are of the same rank (i.e., All Opt Rank 30) and then work on R28, R30 and R32 recipes at R28, R30 and R32 of the craft. I'll work out a draft and figure out what recipes to use. I think I'm going to strictly stick with mats because they are far less volatile than finished goods.

This isn't to test stat scaling on the gear as it is to figure out if there's a separate underlying trend (once you take the stat scaling into consideration) that negatively impacts a recipe because of the user not being of the proper rank for the gear.

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

I am encountering very, very unexplainable results just from ranking up.

This time it's ARM that is giving me issues. Immediately following gaining Rank 24 on my ARM I'm now failing and botching syntheses a lot. My gear has not changed as it is still rank appropriate AND my stats have gone up anyway (due to scaling on a few R24 pieces) I now have almost 60 in control and well over 40 in other of the stats.

I was failing and botching many of my R25 leves (Silver Wire, Silver Rings, Iron Chain Coif and Assault Helm) I got last night and even on the R20 level (Iron Plates) It was a sliver after Full Moon so that I was still in the "good" zone. The only thing I suspected was this:

My Guardian is Llymlaen, the Navigator, the deity of the Fourth Moon. There are 12 such deities and as such there are 12 moons (12 months per year) I have not looked closely at the rate of which time proceeds in the game with relation to the passing of time on the server.

Last night, it was the 11th moon of which I tried to synthesize, which means Menphina, The Lover. Now, I'm starting to wonder, is there a relationship between the deities and is there an affinity from which directly results from the relationship? If so, I would like to know if this also affects crafting in any manner. It seems, at this point, that this is likely, but I have no way to prove this.

There are no relationship between the elements and time (i.e., either with particular days, moons, etc) and I do not think there are any relationship with the elements and the deities (because the numbers do not correspond)

Something was causing issues in such a way that the difference between R23 and R24 was like night and day. The previous experience with the above mentioned items created (With exception of Iron Plates, but I have done this successfully OUTSIDE of leves) were fairly neutral and met with more success than failures during both full moon and new moon. I'm still scratching my head over this one.

[Zempten]

Re: Synthesizing

Hey, I was just wondering . .. is there any way to get fire/wind shards effectively besides breaking them down with alchemy? I mean does DOTL give alot? or do fighting specific mobs give alot? thanks ^ ^

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

Hey, I was just wondering . .. is there any way to get fire/wind shards effectively besides breaking them down with alchemy? I mean does DOTL give alot? or do fighting specific mobs give alot? thanks ^ ^

Fire seems to drop off of Moles, Marmots, Galagos and Kobolds. Wind drops very well off Dodos, Puks, Sheeps (Ewes) and Bats. You can get decent rates of fire shards from Mining in Uldah region and wind shards from Botany in La Noscea (Limsa) region and wind shards from fishing. I think it's better to kill mobs because you can get chance of crystals which can be broken down into shards via Alchemy.

[Zempten]

Re: Synthesizing

Thanks ^ ^ Also how do i know if my craft needs magical or regular craftsmenship?

[Aeni]

Re: Synthesizing

Thanks ^ ^ Also how do i know if my craft needs magical or regular craftsmenship?

Since neither Dux nor I have run tests regarding either stats being more or less beneficial on recipes (that would be too exhaustive to do) I think I can say with some measure of confidence to just get a right balance of both which should allow you to process any recipes with a fair degree of success. I have no idea what constitutes a magical or physical craftsmanship. I can suspect or speculate but that would be irresponsible of me. My guesses (please take this with some salt) is that the bulk of materials constitute physical and finished products are mostly magical, specially if they convey stats and/or unique properties (i.e., +15 fire damage)