Good argument for EXP handicap

[Absentia]

Final Fantasy XIV to punish players for playing too long – Video Games Reviews, Cheats | Geek.com

The 2nd comment is the comment I'm referring to. It opened my eyes to a different perspective, and I must say that I feel a bit better about the whole issue.

[MrMageo]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

According to Nobuaki Komoto, director of the game, it’s a matter of balancing and making the game fair for those who can’t spend all their waking hours logged into the game:

First off, the main concept behind FFXIV is allowing those players with little time on their hands to play effectively, and game balance is based off of that. Furthermore, it is being designed to not give those with more time on their hands to play an unfair advantage. Because of that, systems such as Guardian’s Favor (a bonus to Guildleves) have been implemented to make leveling in the short-term easier than leveling in the long-term.

called it, no hardcore play bonus, other than being able to make a more diverse character booyah brain power.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

The quote in full:

From what I read this actually seems different from what Blizzard did and in a good way. Perhaps it is what Blizzard should have done with its class system. I like it because it means hardcore players won’t have to roll 3 alts to keep things interesting (you can still play 24 hours a week, you just need to level 3 separate classes which will likely be a requirement for hardcore raiding anyways). Your character can grow in multiple directions at once without having to repeat content. I used to lead a guild pushing ICC 5 nights a week on 10s and 25s with a decent rank and eventually I gave up and decided to leave WoW one night simply because we did not have enough raiders and people wanted to waste time being idiots, which would be fine normally but I had my fill of getting people shiny gear who did not care to explore the game beyond clearing the current content. Tragically, Blizz actually punishes hardcore players far worse than Square does in this scenario in many ways, to save space I’ll only give three examples:

1.) Mind numbing dailies and 3-hour fishing expeditions to make sure the raid was good on buffs, since half the people were too lazy to do this on their own (forcing players to do multiple roles fixes this as some people including myself will probably take a gathering role to lessen to burden on the guild/raid and may be a fun way to relieve stress).
2.) Canceled raids because 3 people were to trashed to show up and 25 were needed for raid and they could not be replaced due to role and gearing issues (multiple roles means multiple tanks, healers, hybrids, etc… plus FF is a lot friendlier than WoW since people don’t need to be in the same guild to work together as the gearing structure is totally different and slightly more intuitive).
3.) The strong and smart carrying the weak and useless (it really sucks to build something awesome only to have a small group of people only want to push ICC beyond the point of fail and totally neglect the fact that the truly great players were working through the content to get the rarest achievements and items- in FF you can simply party with the 10 people that do 90% of the work anyways and as for the other 15, well you need not carry the extra weight or worry about too few being on and there are no guild rivalries so you can play with who you want)

I think the truly hardcore will embrace this. As a former guild leader, I can tell you it really sucks when you have to sit people because of group composition or any reason really. It all amounts to a lot of whining, quitting, kicking, swearing, and above all aggravation which detracts from the overall gaming experience. I would personally rather be with 10 highly motivated friends than a mixed group of 10 people I like and 15 people I tolerate because the game says I have to.

To your point, I think its important to define a hardcore player: A hardcore player does what it takes to be the best, constantly refining their class, tactics, and strategy to suit the challenge. They strive to be number one and consider their time valuable. By putting a system in place that encourages players to broaden their horizons and fill multiple raiding roles, you encourage people to be hardcore players and experience all aspects of the game, which is brilliant not only for generating revenue but also developing interest in the game. No more insta-80s asking “d00d yer AWESUM, can I r be in ur guild”, no more complaints from people who show up to raid once a week expecting a spot, no more /gkicking, and most of all, no more whining. Why? Simply because you have a system that lets people choose what they want to do and allows independent performance. The leveling opportunities are almost infinite and the pacing actually makes sense since it makes you learn multiple roles simultaneously. Having to train a new healer at level 80 in WoW for instance isn’t fun since they will DEFINITELY mess up which will cost time and cause aggravation. Granted… It will take longer to reach max level, but when you do you would be proficient in 3 classes instead of just one and the time you save in the long run would be well worth it (especially when it comes to raids). For the hardcore players this is a blessing in disguise. Consider:

1.) Anyone you will want to raid with will have maxed multiple classes and therefore will be proficient in the play-style of each class. This means you can expect people to play well in any role and not waste your time.
2.) You do not need alts, meaning you will not need to re-complete the same achievements on multiple characters to get what you need done since one character can perform multiple roles.
3.) In WoW, the fun of getting to level 80 is pretty much over at level 80. In this case the fun may just be starting and continuous leveling would most assuredly be a welcome change from raiding to the point of burnout.

Point being that Square is virtually gift-wrapping talented players in this scenario as you will have the opportunity to learn multiple classes by max level AND you will know how to play each class BEFORE you raid (I hate incompetence). Personally, I’d rather not have the guy who power-leveled to 80 in my raid because he doesn’t know his class or really very much about raiding, macros, achievements, fine-tuning, etc. All I’m saying is the downside you fear may have a very pleasant upside especially for hardcore players. Just food for thought…

IMO, Blizzard’s problem is they change the rules too often and marginalize really difficult achievements which already has cost them a lot of their truly hardcore fan base. I think the fact that anyone can view the climax of the game simply by clicking on the fountain in the center of town is pretty insulting to the players who worked for that achievement. Personally, it totally made me not care if I even killed Arthas. I hope Square sticks by their decision and doesn’t ‘cave’ just because some people cry about it. It is a smart move that will result in smart players and a better overall gaming experience.

The way he put is really does set it in perspective. Especially in his first #3.

Really, how many times in missions or raids in FFXI have we had to deal with people only willing to play a very specific role?

Sometimes not having that job on hand is make or break, other times the player's lack of diversity just drags the group down. This was especially pronounced in CoP missions for the longest time - people acting like they just HAD to be their fucking Puppetmaster or BST when the group needed their BLU or PLD.

The point of both FFXI and FFXIV is to embrace diverse character growth, not to just be one thing. Those that just want to be one thing weigh the group down.

The way I see it, this system pushes hardcore training at a casual pace. Those that just want to be a simple Lancer and be a simple lancer and enjoy their solo sessions, but it also seems to imply higher level events are going to require a more serious, dedicated player willing to embrace the system in full if they wish to max out the roles they want to specialize.

The game is trying to avoid career bards and red mages, its trying to make all roles important so there isn't one that rules over the pack. When you have a raid, you'll hopefully always have tanks because melees will need to train as tanks to get all their melee skills. And with missions and guild recruitment, you'll be more able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I mean, c'mon, how many jackasses have made it into an LS just because they had a BRD and no one else in the LS wanted to be stuck with the role. Was that person ever useful for anything else? I'd like guilds to play smarter this time, not settle for tablescrap players.

We've all heard Callisto's horror stories about PLDs his LS had to carry through Dynamis runs. Hell, we might all be nice sometimes and not say anything about it, but we've all carried our share of the chaff around merely because of the couple of jobs they had levelled and desparation. I don't want to reward the unskilled.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

For those of you who are at work and can not access that website:

"From what I read this actually seems different from what Blizzard did and in a good way. Perhaps it is what Blizzard should have done with its class system. I like it because it means hardcore players won’t have to roll 3 alts to keep things interesting (you can still play 24 hours a week, you just need to level 3 separate classes which will likely be a requirement for hardcore raiding anyways). Your character can grow in multiple directions at once without having to repeat content. I used to lead a guild pushing ICC 5 nights a week on 10s and 25s with a decent rank and eventually I gave up and decided to leave WoW one night simply because we did not have enough raiders and people wanted to waste time being idiots, which would be fine normally but I had my fill of getting people shiny gear who did not care to explore the game beyond clearing the current content. Tragically, Blizz actually punishes hardcore players far worse than Square does in this scenario in many ways, to save space I’ll only give three examples:

1.) Mind numbing dailies and 3-hour fishing expeditions to make sure the raid was good on buffs, since half the people were too lazy to do this on their own (forcing players to do multiple roles fixes this as some people including myself will probably take a gathering role to lessen to burden on the guild/raid and may be a fun way to relieve stress).
2.) Canceled raids because 3 people were to trashed to show up and 25 were needed for raid and they could not be replaced due to role and gearing issues (multiple roles means multiple tanks, healers, hybrids, etc… plus FF is a lot friendlier than WoW since people don’t need to be in the same guild to work together as the gearing structure is totally different and slightly more intuitive).
3.) The strong and smart carrying the weak and useless (it really sucks to build something awesome only to have a small group of people only want to push ICC beyond the point of fail and totally neglect the fact that the truly great players were working through the content to get the rarest achievements and items- in FF you can simply party with the 10 people that do 90% of the work anyways and as for the other 15, well you need not carry the extra weight or worry about too few being on and there are no guild rivalries so you can play with who you want)

I think the truly hardcore will embrace this. As a former guild leader, I can tell you it really sucks when you have to sit people because of group composition or any reason really. It all amounts to a lot of whining, quitting, kicking, swearing, and above all aggravation which detracts from the overall gaming experience. I would personally rather be with 10 highly motivated friends than a mixed group of 10 people I like and 15 people I tolerate because the game says I have to.

To your point, I think its important to define a hardcore player: A hardcore player does what it takes to be the best, constantly refining their class, tactics, and strategy to suit the challenge. They strive to be number one and consider their time valuable. By putting a system in place that encourages players to broaden their horizons and fill multiple raiding roles, you encourage people to be hardcore players and experience all aspects of the game, which is brilliant not only for generating revenue but also developing interest in the game. No more insta-80s asking “d00d yer AWESUM, can I r be in ur guild”, no more complaints from people who show up to raid once a week expecting a spot, no more /gkicking, and most of all, no more whining. Why? Simply because you have a system that lets people choose what they want to do and allows independent performance. The leveling opportunities are almost infinite and the pacing actually makes sense since it makes you learn multiple roles simultaneously. Having to train a new healer at level 80 in WoW for instance isn’t fun since they will DEFINITELY mess up which will cost time and cause aggravation. Granted… It will take longer to reach max level, but when you do you would be proficient in 3 classes instead of just one and the time you save in the long run would be well worth it (especially when it comes to raids). For the hardcore players this is a blessing in disguise. Consider:

1.) Anyone you will want to raid with will have maxed multiple classes and therefore will be proficient in the play-style of each class. This means you can expect people to play well in any role and not waste your time.
2.) You do not need alts, meaning you will not need to re-complete the same achievements on multiple characters to get what you need done since one character can perform multiple roles.
3.) In WoW, the fun of getting to level 80 is pretty much over at level 80. In this case the fun may just be starting and continuous leveling would most assuredly be a welcome change from raiding to the point of burnout.

Point being that Square is virtually gift-wrapping talented players in this scenario as you will have the opportunity to learn multiple classes by max level AND you will know how to play each class BEFORE you raid (I hate incompetence). Personally, I’d rather not have the guy who power-leveled to 80 in my raid because he doesn’t know his class or really very much about raiding, macros, achievements, fine-tuning, etc. All I’m saying is the downside you fear may have a very pleasant upside especially for hardcore players. Just food for thought…

IMO, Blizzard’s problem is they change the rules too often and marginalize really difficult achievements which already has cost them a lot of their truly hardcore fan base. I think the fact that anyone can view the climax of the game simply by clicking on the fountain in the center of town is pretty insulting to the players who worked for that achievement. Personally, it totally made me not care if I even killed Arthas. I hope Square sticks by their decision and doesn’t ‘cave’ just because some people cry about it. It is a smart move that will result in smart players and a better overall gaming experience."

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

beatyatoit

[Absentia]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

Thanks for quoting the site for me >_< Completely forgot some people may not be able to access the site.

Also, some people seem to be forgetting that the system is still undergoing research and most likely will be tweaked to some extent.

Heck, it was even stated that the exp you earn can be restored back to full even before the weekly timer hits. I mean yeah, you've got to spend some time doing things that don't earn you exp, but at least there's something in place.

[Takelli]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

Heck, it was even stated that the exp you earn can be restored back to full even before the weekly timer hits. I mean yeah, you've got to spend some time doing things that don't earn you exp, but at least there's something in place.

... And what is there to do that doesn't give exp? Every thing you do gives exp. Craft, fish, collect mats, everything! Except for fighting stuff that gives no exp, but that's just one thing. What else is there? Just stand around and talk to people for hours on end until it resets? That's BS.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

beatyatoit

Oh hell! We must have posted at the same time. lol

/bow Kitten!

[Solymir]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

The only part I'm confused on, is when does the clock start and when does it stop? If I am on my Thaum for some event/mission and I defeat a mob that gives me exp does my clock start? If so when will that clock stop? I'd like to get more detailed with my questions, but I think being able to play the game will answer some of those so I will wait on those.

[MrMageo]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

... And what is there to do that doesn't give exp? Every thing you do gives exp. Craft, fish, collect mats, everything! Except for fighting stuff that gives no exp, but that's just one thing. What else is there? Just stand around and talk to people for hours on end until it resets? That's BS.

Oh I don't know skill yourself up in one of the other 13 classes available at launch? Its not rocket science. Want to be a sweet Gladiator, burn through your EXP in days 1 and 2. Burn through Blacksmith in days 3 and 4 so you can make and fix your own equipment, burn through miner on day 5 and 6 so you can have mats to build stuff with, day 7 pick a random class that might offer skills to support what you want to "main" such as lancer, or pugilist, or maybe take up a third crafty type, like culinarian.

There ya go a week of things to do that can all revolve around making your Gladiator better, and more self dependent. With all that, there will be no time to stand around and talk.

The only part I'm confused on, is when does the clock start and when does it stop? If I am on my Thaum for some event/mission and I defeat a mob that gives me exp does my clock start? If so when will that clock stop? I'd like to get more detailed with my questions, but I think being able to play the game will answer some of those so I will wait on those.
__________________

It will most likely function like the conquest tally thing (ie. Reset on the sunday at JP midnight) as for the start time, I would wager the first act you do that gives EXP will trigger it. That could be killing something or mining or the like. Thats just my guess based on past experience with fatigue systems (WoW) however instead of reseting at a rate when not being used it just resets 100% every week.

I like it, because it is basically forcing people to learn more than one thing, and as such being useful. Not to mention it doesn't favor those people who have 1000 times more free time and basically turn it into hard core vs casual like FFXI was (is in some sense). Basically it levels the playing field more so. Everyone will have similar leveled classes, but those who are hardcore will just have a more diverse character (see my 1 week exp plan for a Gladiator at top). While a Casual player might only get a Gladiator with some blacksmith exp, the hardcore can basically have an entire self supported character structure. In turn he will still be ahead of the casual player based on over all usefulness of his character, but in a Gladiator vs Gladiator stand of, they would be strikingly similar, which is a good thing.

Eespecially when it gets later in game those casual players might come across more time, and as such having an equally skilled gladiator as the hard core guy, they will have a similar shot at getting into an endgame shell etc. Unlike in FFXI where the more casual get left so far behind it isn't even funny. (well now with the new casual friendly FFXI and the fact most old endgame is 6-12 mannable now, even casual players can cash in on some of the more unatainable things).

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

Listen rdms don't like being told what to do (backline onry) when they pay their $12.95 to play and I don't like being told how long I can level on the job that I choose when I'll be paying my $12.99.

[Takelli]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

Oh I don't know skill yourself up in one of the other 13 classes available at launch? Its not rocket science. Want to be a sweet Gladiator, burn through your EXP in days 1 and 2. Burn through Blacksmith in days 3 and 4 so you can make and fix your own equipment, burn through miner on day 5 and 6 so you can have mats to build stuff with, day 7 pick a random class that might offer skills to support what you want to "main" such as lancer, or pugilist, or maybe take up a third crafty type, like culinarian.

There ya go a week of things to do that can all revolve around making your Gladiator better, and more self dependent. With all that, there will be no time to stand around and talk.

What if we hate the crafting style like FFXI's? Or just have bad luck with constant breaks. What if we just don't think crafting is fun? Why play something you don't think is fun. What if Gladiator is the only fun class in the game?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

This should probably be merged with the other thread as the discussions will no doubt end up mirroring each other.

[Absentia]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

What if we hate the crafting style like FFXI's? Or just have bad luck with constant breaks. What if we just don't think crafting is fun? Why play something you don't think is fun. What if Gladiator is the only fun class in the game?

Well I suppose everything will be pretty shitty if you go into it being a negative nancy.

[MrMageo]

Re: Good argument for EXP handicap

What if we hate the crafting style like FFXI's? Or just have bad luck with constant breaks. What if we just don't think crafting is fun? Why play something you don't think is fun. What if Gladiator is the only fun class in the game?

Sucks to be you.... There is a plethora of things available to you, it is your choice to limit yourself to one thing. SE is simply making the game more even, that way the guy who lives has a hundred of hours to play a week can't be way ahead of the guy who works all day everyday for a living. It is called keeping an even playing field. It is not fair to those of us who work all the time, or have other responsibilities (ie, Children) to be left in the dust because we can't play as often as students, unemployed, partially employed etc etc etc. FFXI saw a huge separation in the casual to non casual play base. FF14 is simply nipping it in the bud before it becomes a problem. Basically SE is saying, we don't want the people who can play all day everyday to dominate the top 5% of the server, and those who can't to be left holding the bag at the end of the day.

All I can hope is SE finds a way to extend this to loot as well (ie. more of the token system Cruor, AN, CP, IS, theshit from einherjahr, VNM, ZNM) So we don't get this; For example the guy who plays all the time starts a linkshell (or ff14 equivalent) with a couple of others who play all day everyday. They enlist the help of a bunch of people who only play a couple times a week, but these people are spaced out. 10 play monday, 10 play teusday etc etc etc. So they settle on a point system based on attendance. The 7 guys who play all day everyday attend all events and get 7 base attendance points plus the 3-4 points for the hours that night for a total of 21-28 points a week, while the 10 people each day only get 4-5 points a week (i know it will b more like 12-15 since most people can get 3 days to play). That is a huge gap. It is why lots of people hate endgame, because they feel they are working for a handful of people to get better (this is usually right). How many times have you seen posts about a leader breaking a shell after bleeding it dry and getting all the items he wanted. Happens all the time.

All I hope is SE takes the casual seriously. If End game type items can be bought with specific in game points (like Cruor or the like) than it will be fair, sure the hardcore guys will get theirs first, but the casual players will still earn their fair gear by playing in their own time frames. Which is very very fair.

Judging from the systems SE has put in place in recent years, it is going to be much more casual friendly than it once was, (see Kings scene, and old sky). Pop HNM's fast popping timed NM's like in ZNM/VNM, Abyssea areas, should be the norm, these world pop NM's like Nidhogg should be a thing of the past.

If SE has learned anything it is that the casual base is much greater than the hardcore base, and catering to them from the get go means that they will retain people much longer. For example WoW is a very casual friendly game, it is designed to be a minimalist exp endevour, you can solo to cap, the endgame scene is very fair, where you earn tokens to buy some great great gear, just for showing up, WHEN YOU CAN. But again the hardcore gamers, can get the gear faster just because they earn tokens faster, which is fair.

Essentially everyone should have access to the same loot, at the same speed. Same goes with leveling. If you want to limit yourself to one thing during your 8hours + a day of gaming that is your perogative, with so many options, SE has basically said, we are not going to have the 5% of you who play all day caping out 100 times faster than those who can't, we want the playing field equal as long as possible. WHICH IS A GOOD THING.

If you don't like the casual getting catered to (95% of the gaming community is casual) then maybe you should stick with some old clunky MMO's that reward the people which have nothing better to do than play video games all day every day. All the major MMO's with the exception of FFXI (until recently) cater to the casual, WoW is the ultimate example with its retainer of a populous larger than some countries.

SE is in the business of making money, and they will gladly take subscriptions from 95% of 1 million people who are happy they can level and experience the game at a similar time to those around them (even tough they play less.) than lose those players because they feel they are to far behind to bother by catering to 5% of a million people who want to burn through the game as fast as possible.

95% > 5% if you were in the business of making money, what would you do?.