Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

[Kailea]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

And you can stop harping about how it works, I'm not an idiot, I can read and *gasp* comprehend.

then stop asking me for facts, if you would read the dev post and the explenations given on how surplus really works from that post, you would have your facts.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

then stop asking me for facts, if you would read the dev post and the explenations given on how surplus really works from that post, you would have your facts.

And what does that have to do with giving me facts about you knowing that...

The only ones it will really effect are the ones trying to rush through the game.

Absolutely nothing.

[Malacite]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Just the very principal of the idea feels like some kind of violation of my rights. As a fervent mutli-classer, this really does piss me the fuck off that SE did this because as TGM and others have said, sometimes you just get into a groove and feel like grinding away.

I'll end up playing each and every class to some degree (except fisherman, I really just don't like fishing in XI or XIV) but it's annoying as hell to me that any time I feel like focusing on one particular class, I'm going to get penalized just so that the mouth breathers can keep pace with me.

SE can piss right off with this system, and I got a feeling that they're going to seriously scale back or even remove it altogether as the game's subscription numbers quickly fade from people getting fed up of the system. Shit, there's so much negative publicity about the game now over this now that there's probably a good chunk of people who won't even try it out now.

Not enough to hinder it right at launch but still I can't believe Komoto and Tanaka would be this stupid. As someone on the forums already pointed out, they could just bring back level synch I mean shit why the hell not? It pretty much solved all our worries in XI (along with Fov) so why can't they just try the following instead;

- Bring back level synch.
- Remove Physical EXP from crafting & gathering (Honestly wtf is with that anyway? You should only get EXP for doing combat jobs since crafting and gathering don't need EXP anyway just skill)
- Adjust guild leves to give increased rewards for those who haven't done any for a while or missed the 48 hour recharge (another beta forum suggestion).


I especially like the 3rd notion because it makes use of XIV's new hook and really just think about it for a moment. The hardcore player could be tempted to put off doing leves and just grind away, but then they're missing out on quite a bit of extra exp skill & gil so chances are they won't. The casual player (who in all likeliness probably doesn't give a shit that others are ahead of themselves anyway) can do a few leves worth extra since they aren't on very often and catch up that way.

This way they don't fall behind, and the rest of us don't have to feel like we're being punished for playing more.

[abknight]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Way to miss the point there, buddy. I said nothing about changing FFXI's system, I don't see why FFXI's lack of durability need to be in FFXIV and I gave you examples within FFXI's design to the long term consequences of item permanence.

SH didn't depreciate just because of ToA gear, but because there was a surplus of product that had nowhere to go. Only certain jobs really garnered benefit from the evasion and now the accuracy could be gained from other gear. A lot of people still wanted it for the epeen status - but Black Mages had farmed so many V Claws from the BC and so many people returned SH's into the system that mass deflation ensued.

Had there been a system where gear could degrade or possibly even be destroyed - the value of the SH would not only have not been so inflated to start with, it would have never depreciated as dramatically as it did.

And that's not speculation, this system has been proven in other MMOs time and again. And such systems don't just affect the economy, but courtesies within a party as well.

Item peramanence is bullshit and, quite frankly, the argument that "games don't have to be realistic" is also inherently bullshit because its abandoned the second you find something you don't like or don't consider fair.

Like fatigue or durability.

And hell, You used FFXI's crafting system to defend your point, yet you'd destroy FFXIV's system just to make some of the jobs not resource based at all. Sorry, but you're gonna pay for your armor fixes just like I'm going to pay to restock arrows. That may also mean jobs that don't take damage or frequenly spend gil to do so might end up on the shallow end of the loot pool, only getting what's needed rather than what they want

I will carefully break this down for you, since you seem to be getting needlessly upset about it and don't understand, pal.

Way to miss the point there, buddy. I said nothing about changing FFXI's system, I don't see why FFXI's lack of durability need to be in FFXIV and I gave you examples within FFXI's design to the long term consequences of item permanence.

At no point in my response did I accuse you of saying anything about changing FFXI's system. Your examples were misguided and will be explained next.

SH didn't depreciate just because of ToA gear, but because there was a surplus of product that had nowhere to go. Only certain jobs really garnered benefit from the evasion and now the accuracy could be gained from other gear. A lot of people still wanted it for the epeen status - but Black Mages had farmed so many V Claws from the BC and so many people returned SH's into the system that mass deflation ensued.

Had there been a system where gear could degrade or possibly even be destroyed - the value of the SH would not only have not been so inflated to start with, it would have never depreciated as dramatically as it did.

This would be easier if you would just re-read my last post. SH was unattainable by all but high-end raiders and the most dedicated farmers for years (like 3 real life years). After the item had been in the game for several years, many other ways of obtaining venomous claws were introduced. The extreme surplus didn't appear until the game had been out for like 5 or more years. At that point, who cares if there's a surplus? It's a FIVE-YEAR-OLD ITEM. Unless 14 allows items to completely break and become unrepairable, this same issue will arise after several years. Item permanence is a must. No one in their right mind would hunt or grind for rare gear if it could permanently break. When Lu Shang's was first introduced, there was no way to repair it. Lots of hardcore fishermen quit FFXI because of that. SE later realized their mistake and corrected it. Imagine this blown up in scale to encompass all equipment... no. You are far too concerned with the distant-future value of items and are completely disregarding reason. Your deranged Utopia of realism is not going to occur.

And that's not speculation, this system has been proven in other MMOs time and again. And such systems don't just affect the economy, but courtesies within a party as well.

Missing source.

Item peramanence is bullshit and, quite frankly, the argument that "games don't have to be realistic" is also inherently bullshit because its abandoned the second you find something you don't like or don't consider fair.

Like fatigue or durability.

You are confusing being realistic about game realism with being stubborn. They are two different things.

And hell, You used FFXI's crafting system to defend your point, yet you'd destroy FFXIV's system just to make some of the jobs not resource based at all. Sorry, but you're gonna pay for your armor fixes just like I'm going to pay to restock arrows. That may also mean jobs that don't take damage or frequenly spend gil to do so might end up on the shallow end of the loot pool, only getting what's needed rather than what they want

I'm not seeing anything in my last post about FFXI's crafting system. You're gonna have to quote that. Do you really believe that blacksmithing would be DESTROYED if it didn't revolve around repairing armor? You act as if repairing is literally the only thing that blacksmith is good for. You don't seem to understand that you're also going to pay for armor fixes ON TOP of your arrows. With durability loss, everyone is paying extra. This is bad for everyone; it's not some way to make everyone that doesn't use ammo pay the same upkeep costs as those who do use it. Your idea of distributing more loot to tanks is asinine. Random players will never agree to distribute loot like that. Besides, do you know, for a fact, that all class' gear doesn't gradually lose durability just through normal gameplay, but only when attacked? Games like WoW are designed so that you're always losing durability while fighting, even if you're in the back row, shooting a bow, not taking any damage.

Shift your focus away from the distant future and more towards the present. Extremely old items are meant to become easier and easier to acquire due to a number of reasons. Causing them to permanently break will piss everyone off and make people quit playing. Repairable durability has absolutely nothing to do with item permanence, and there's just no way that SE will make items permanently breakable. Blacksmith will most likely have many uses, other than just repairing items. Durability isn't necessary at all. It's just another control implemented to keep people playing longer. The more gil you have to spend to keep your items maintained, the more gil you have to farm. The more gil you have to farm, the longer you have to play. It takes away from the enjoyability of doing new things and forces you to grind just to be able to use what you already have.

TLDR: Durability is an unenjoyable control feature, blacksmiths will survive without durability, and wake up from your emo, Socialistic fantasy world... about fantasy worlds.

[DakAttack]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

This is all getting too serious for something nobody really knows anything about, so without further ado:

Something to distract you from all of this

THE GAME
That is all.

[Proximo85]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Omgwtfbbqkitten got owned, hardcore.. that has to hurt.

[Malacite]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Something to distract you from all of this

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlErJ7D4vls"]YouTube- Hitler Riding Unicycle While Juggling Fish[/nomedia]


I like mine better

[luccion]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

I'm gonna agree it looks, feels, and smells like crap right now but the full picture still hasn't been painted yet. take the ingrediants for buscuits for example:

-2 cups sifted flour
-2 tsp. baking powder
-4 tablespoons butter or shortening
-1/2 tsp. salt
-about 3/4 cup milk

alone, most those ingrediants taste horrible. all together with a little heat and time and it makes something delicious. I say just wait and see what else they throw with it all. most of you all, with the way you all are whinning, might as well just not even attempt to play. you all got your mind set that its all gonna be a flop from the start, when you know the whole time constraint on lvling probably wont even really apply to you sence your gonna sample all the aspects of the game anyway... your gonna farm for a few hours all the materials you need to level your crafting, swap to crafting and craft till your out of mats then maybe after go on a guild leves with some friends that just came on and play with them till you fall asleep playing. you say people like kailea are blindly defending but you all are blindly bashin without knowing what else is in store for the whole thing. Only time can really tell. so let it be and wait till it is set in stone how things are gonna be. thats my opinion

[Aeni]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

TLDR: Durability is an unenjoyable control feature, blacksmiths will survive without durability, and wake up from your emo, Socialistic fantasy world... about fantasy worlds.

I have to agree with abknight here. If you look at WoW, hardly anyone has a tier 1 in their bank or bag ... either sharded or tossed a long time ago. As expansions get released, newer gear comes out, level caps increases. FFXI's relatively static and almost permanent reliance on performance of gears several levels old was disconcerting to me. This screams imbalance in stats on a gear and that is very bad for economy. If SE had bothered to properly budget stat allocation on items and given weight with respect to the level of the player using it, then FFXI would've been in a far better place. Instead, we had rampant inflation and a lot of players (non-hardcore-raiders) were screwed over or forced to go to gil sellers ... and we all know how that destroyed the economy.

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Daaaaang.. There was a lot of agreeing and disagreeing gin the last 5 pages, lol. I had a lot to say, but I am too tired and lazy to quote all that.. Especially from Kai.. haha

[Nandito]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

I'm gonna agree it looks, feels, and smells like crap right now but the full picture still hasn't been painted yet. take the ingrediants for buscuits for example:

-2 cups sifted flour
-2 tsp. baking powder
-4 tablespoons butter or shortening
-1/2 tsp. salt
-about 3/4 cup milk

alone, most those ingrediants taste horrible. all together with a little heat and time and it makes something delicious. I say just wait and see what else they throw with it all. most of you all, with the way you all are whinning, might as well just not even attempt to play. you all got your mind set that its all gonna be a flop from the start, when you know the whole time constraint on lvling probably wont even really apply to you sence your gonna sample all the aspects of the game anyway... your gonna farm for a few hours all the materials you need to level your crafting, swap to crafting and craft till your out of mats then maybe after go on a guild leves with some friends that just came on and play with them till you fall asleep playing. you say people like kailea are blindly defending but you all are blindly bashin without knowing what else is in store for the whole thing. Only time can really tell. so let it be and wait till it is set in stone how things are gonna be. thats my opinion

You kidding me? All those ingredients alone taste delicious. Nothing like a nice cup of baking powder in the morning.

But yeah, seriously. How long is this topic going to go on? It's just back and forth conflict with no end! Me posting this isn't helping either! I'm just fanning the fire! We're all doooomed!

[Firewind]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Am I the only one who thinks they they put this system in place to stop beta players from getting a stupidly unfair headstart over retail players by doing nothing but grinding and that it will probably be removed for the retail version?

[Gman]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

I wonder what the root purpose is for this leveling restriction. Is it to allow casual players to keep pace? (I really don't think so- that would be stupid since the casuals don't care if others outlevel them- thats what makes them casual) Or is it to slow hardcore players down, because S-E haven't been able to figure out what their vision is for how long it should take to level up? Back when FFXI first launched in Japan, they made several changes to the exp rate of mobs, exp chains, group bonueses, etc. It took a long time to get it the way they wanted it. I wonder if this is just a test to see how fast people will level in beta, so they can take that info and use it for retail.

My opinion is that if people are leveling too quick, simply lower the experience mobs give, or increase the amount of exp needed to level. Don't penalize people for spending too much time leveling. If the exp to level ratios are spot on, it shouldn't be a concern anway.

I find it ironic that they rewarded the elite hardcore players with items such as Maat's cap in FFXI but they are taking such a drastically opposite approach here, when it's mostly the same userbase they will be drawing from. I never played WoW, just FFXI. I'm expecting a game that improves on FFXI's faults, but keeps the good things. So far there seems to be more bad than good.

[Chromemage]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Am I the only one who thinks they they put this system in place to stop beta players from getting a stupidly unfair headstart over retail players by doing nothing but grinding and that it will probably be removed for the retail version?

No. You can go all over the net and find the different conspiracies on this Fatigue system. But ffxionline is my one stop place for endless bitching and uneducated entertainment/banter.



Anyway, I don't buy any of the BS, but if I'm going to buy in to it, the most plausible is there isn't enough content to allow people to zip through the game. Seems the most reasonable.



I don't really see the point of causing all this controversy with the system in the first place if they're just going to take it out for retail. If it gets taken out, it won't be because they wanted beta testers to suffer and not get to far in the game. It will be because SE has done the right thing and told the casual gamers to suck it.

[Gman]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

If it gets taken out, it won't be because they wanted beta testers to suffer and not get to far in the game. It will be because SE has done the right thing and told the casual gamers to suck it.

Harsh. Casual gamers don't give a fuck either way. If they care about falling behind because they have less playing time, they aren't casual- they are hardcore players that are pressed for time. Hardcore players play as much as time permits. Be that 18 hours a day or 18 hours a week... if they are doing nothing with their free time except playing an MMO, they are hardcore.

Casual players are a different breed... they don't dedicate their lives to it. They don't care if they aren't the best, or the first to experience something. Therefore, they don't care about the hardcore players outleveling them. S-E saying they are trying to be fair to casual players is complete bullshit. It's an excuse to cover up some other reason for stalling progress.