Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

[Kafeen]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Level another class then, archer, Conj, something, and if you think you can get by in FFXIV with just leveling one class.....then you will run into problems real fast.

If people want to level another class they will, they don't need to be told "You've levelled this one enough for this week, go level a different class." . Classes should be played because of their own merits, not because of a playtime restriction on the class you want to play.

[Takelli]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Why just stop at limiting exp for players?

Why not limit how much gil they can make per week?

Why not limit how much they can craft per week?

Why not limit how much stuff they can gather per week?

Why not limit how many arrows one person can shoot a week?

Limiting exp is just like limiting all that other stuff as well.

[Kailea]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Limiting exp is just like limiting all that other stuff as well.

really? soooo I need EXP to get materials from gathering points? I need EXP to make things of my current level?

Plus like stated in what I posted earlier.... it would take 8 hours + 7 more, before you EXP "caps out" that's 15 hours for ONE CLASS. Hell its not even "hours" that is counted its EXP. so that "15 hours" can easily turn into 30 real hours. On top of all that, when Surplus EXP was turned on by SE, it was not even working right..... so people are complaining and getting all anal, about a system that is not finished, and they don't know everything about.

[Gman]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Here's my take on it. If I'm paying a monthly subscription fee to play this game, I should be able to play it as much as I want. I know I technically "can" play it as much as I want, but also how I want.

In FFXI, to combat bot fishing, S-E implemented "fatigue" but it was easily fixed by going to a different zone. There seems to be no way to counteract this type of "fatigue" other than just stop leveling that class. This is unacceptable, IMO.

The reason behind it is weak too... to allow for the casual gamers to keep pace with the hardcore:

1) why would casuals want to keep pace? They play casually for a reason
2) why punish someone who has more time to play? What about someone who's retired, single, or disabled, and can't work?

S-E are obviously taking an extreme approach to correcting a flaw that FFXI had, but this is not the way to do it. They already did it by allowing solo play. That is enough. If you can't find a group to party with, do Guildleve's or play solo...problem solved.

Kailea- always the voice of reason... holy shit, why can't you butt out of other people's business (ie telling someone how much play is too much)?

Oh and stop saying we don't know what this does yet, because it's been explained in great detail.

http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=23092

[MrMageo]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Maybe it is a beta only thing, and SE just doesn't want the beta testers to far ahead of the crowd when it goes live (maybe they plan to allow you to transfer your beta charecter to another account, or use your beta profile as your original account.) Lord knows the beta testers in other prominent mmos (even FFXI) got so far ahead of the live gamers that it created early rifts.

However I still imagine that it works like Rest EXP in WOW and you only get so long of bonus EXP depending on how long you were unable to play. Another tool used to allow players to stay within reach of each other. It has always been my philosophy that everyone deserves and equal crack at things, If you play every single day for many hours, it does not entitle you to have a better chance at things than someone who plays only a few days a week.

From the looks of what SE did to FFXI over the last few years (campaign, level sync, fov, MMM, Abyssea, Magian trials, Wwalk of Echoes) it all screams casual play. Which was a far cry from pre Wotg days of time sync play. I imagine this will be carried through to 14 (considering the success the idea has had in FFXI, I can not see one problem with any of the casual oriented events they have implemented).

Until SE says this is what this is, then you kind of bunch your panties up for no reason. Speculation makes people sad sometimes.

[Gman]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

I wonder how long it will take to level to the max physical level (50 or whatever it will be). Since you can only do it once this time around, I hope it's not too quick. I know you can go back and train skills on different classes, but your physical level can only be leveled once, which limits replayability.

I wonder if the "fatigue" has more to do with that? Simply slowing the rate that your physical level grows, so there aren't a bunch of level 50's running around 2 months after release.

[Takelli]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

really? soooo I need EXP to get materials from gathering points? I need EXP to make things of my current level?

Actually... I was making a point there. You always got to argue don't you?

Limiting the amoutn of exp some one can make is basically limiting their game play, which is what I said with my post.

I am getting really fucking tired of you trying to make this sound as if its not that bad, when others feel as if it will limit game play of the game they are PAYING for play.

I sure as hell don't want to pay for a game that will limit my game play.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

adding durability to ff14 will not "level the playing field" like you are suggesting. it just means that jobs which don't use ammunition will have to spend money on repairing, and jobs that do spend money on ammunition will have to spend even MORE money than usual, to maintain their equipment. i think of how annoying it is when i'm out in the middle of nowhere in other games that have durability and my equipment breaks. i have to go back to town and pay a vendor to repair my items. it's not fun to spend hard-earned currency just to maintain what you already have, realistic or not. now imagine having to run back to town and then camp and shout for a high enough level crafter to repair your items, or level blacksmithing just to repair items... it will not be a fun feature for anyone.

the lack of durability in ffxi is not what caused the problems you are referencing. items like SH were unaffordable by the masses until much better gear became available and SE released a dozen ways to obtain venomous claws (we're talking 3 or 4 years). furthermore, jobs like RNG always crafted their own ammuntion for years. it wasn't until several years into the game, when there was an absurd surplus of gil, that the average player could afford to buy all of their ammunition on the AH.

the game is not based on reality, so saying that durability makes sense because it's "realistic" is bogus. i'm sure blacksmith and armorer can be given meaning other than JUST chilling in town and repairing people's gear. does that really sound fun?

Way to miss the point there, buddy. I said nothing about changing FFXI's system, I don't see why FFXI's lack of durability need to be in FFXIV and I gave you examples within FFXI's design to the long term consequences of item permanence.

SH didn't depreciate just because of ToA gear, but because there was a surplus of product that had nowhere to go. Only certain jobs really garnered benefit from the evasion and now the accuracy could be gained from other gear. A lot of people still wanted it for the epeen status - but Black Mages had farmed so many V Claws from the BC and so many people returned SH's into the system that mass deflation ensued.

Had there been a system where gear could degrade or possibly even be destroyed - the value of the SH would not only have not been so inflated to start with, it would have never depreciated as dramatically as it did.

And that's not speculation, this system has been proven in other MMOs time and again. And such systems don't just affect the economy, but courtesies within a party as well.

Item peramanence is bullshit and, quite frankly, the argument that "games don't have to be realistic" is also inherently bullshit because its abandoned the second you find something you don't like or don't consider fair.

Like fatigue or durability.

And hell, You used FFXI's crafting system to defend your point, yet you'd destroy FFXIV's system just to make some of the jobs not resource based at all. Sorry, but you're gonna pay for your armor fixes just like I'm going to pay to restock arrows. That may also mean jobs that don't take damage or frequenly spend gil to do so might end up on the shallow end of the loot pool, only getting what's needed rather than what they want

[Kafeen]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

really? soooo I need EXP to get materials from gathering points? I need EXP to make things of my current level?

Plus like stated in what I posted earlier.... it would take 8 hours + 7 more, before you EXP "caps out" that's 15 hours for ONE CLASS. Hell its not even "hours" that is counted its EXP. so that "15 hours" can easily turn into 30 real hours. On top of all that, when Surplus EXP was turned on by SE, it was not even working right..... so people are complaining and getting all anal, about a system that is not finished, and they don't know everything about.

But how many people are going to want to level when you're only getting 10, 20, 30% of what you should be?

Also because its based on EXP not, time, if you level faster than expected it can just as easily drop lower than the times they give if you level faster than they expect, as we saw happening in the last beta, as people get better at the game, get new equipment, new skill, better tactics. Does that mean that by improving yourself you're reducing the time you're allowed to play?


There's a new official translation up from SE:

Once again, we would like to thank you all for your participation and support during the Closed Beta. We will continue to take your valuable feedback into consideration as we develop the game during Open Beta and even beyond the official release.

Now I would like to take a moment to respond to the many questions and opinions regarding the manner in and rates at which experience and skill points are obtained in Beta 3.

Firstly, the concept for FINAL FANTASY XIV was to design a system of character progression that offers meaningful advancement for those with limited time to dedicate to playing. We did not want to create a game that forced people to play for hours on end to see their efforts rewarded. To that end, in addition to the Guardian's Aspect and guildleve systems, we introduced a means of apportioning swifter advancement to shorter periods of play.

In order to achieve this balance, we calculated a value for the amount of skill or experience points that could be earned in a one-hour period. This theoretical value represents an hour spent engaged solely in combat, levequests, or any other activities that earn skill or experience points, and sets a threshold delimiting how many of these points can be earned in a period of play.

Based on this, we have implemented a “threshold value” concept. These thresholds are regulated by a one-week timer that begins counting down the instant you earn skill/experience points. After a week has passed, the thresholds will reset, and the moment skill/experience points are earned again, the timer begins counting down anew.

For the first eight thresholds during this week-long period, players will receive skill/experience points at the maximum rate possible. The actual amount of time spent reaching these thresholds is not significant. That is to say, a player who exceeds eight hours of gameplay will still be rewarded the maximum amount of skill/experience points, so long as the total amount earned is below the eighth threshold value. For the subsequent seven thresholds, players will earn skill/experience points at a gradually decreasing rate, eventually reaching a rate of zero.

It is worth noting, however, that the reduced rate will also gradually recover while players are engaged in activities that do not yield skill/experience points. In this manner, it is possible for the threshold value to reset completely, even before the completion of the one-week timer.

Any skill points earned in excess of the threshold maximum—that is, at a rate of zero—will be stored as "bonus skill points." These are specific to each class, so players limited to earning bonus skill points still have the freedom to change classes and begin earning skill points again at the maximum rate, allowing their reduced skill rates to recover in the meantime.

The experience point threshold, however, is unrelated to class, and switching classes will have no effect on the decreasing rate of earnable experience.

This is how the progression system currently works.

This system was not introduced in Beta 3, but has been in place since the beginning of beta testing. There are several reasons why many people believe that these features were only recently implemented:

- Leading into Beta 3, operation hours were extended, making it possible to play more often during the span of a week.
- To encourage players to form guidleve parties in Beta 3, skill and experience point rewards for guildleves were significantly increased.
- The process that reduced the amount of skill/experience points awarded for weak enemies attacking in groups was unintentionally removed at the start of Beta 3. (This issue has been addressed.)

That last reason in particular was the biggest cause for players running up against the threshold penalty, with characters earning far more skill/experience points than we anticipated. We also faced an issue where we were simultaneously unable to adjust the amount earned for guildleves as well as the effects of crossing each threshold.

We sincerely apologize for the lack of explanation and our failure to make the necessary adjustments in the game.

The threshold values are being reexamined, and we plan to further adjust the different rates of earnable points based on feedback from our testers. One of the top issues we are looking at right now is fixing the excessively rapid drop after crossing the eighth threshold. We also plan to improve experience point reduction rates, even more so than for skill points, considering the threshold is unaffected when changing class.

At the very least, we can promise that players won't be running into the threshold penalty in the same short time span as they did in the beginning of Beta 3.

We would like to take this opportunity to also explain the following issues.

The diminishing results experienced during gathering are a function related to that class alone, and have no connection to this progression system. We are in the process of adjusting this system, and plan to make changes based on tester feedback.

We are currently in the process of considering the means in which bonus skill points can be used. There have been suggestions for various types of incentives, but as encouraging people to play with that in mind defeats the purpose of this threshold system, we will be examining this issue very carefully.

These are not the only adjustments we have planned for Open Beta. As mentioned previously, we are looking into increasing the amount of skill points earned when fighting in a party, and we look forward to seeing your input on these changes.

Last of all, I would like to apologize for the delay in releasing a developer's comment due to my recent attendance to Gamescom. The article based on my interview during that trip, coupled with conjecture, outdated information, and some misunderstandings on overseas websites, only added to the confusion. In the future, I hope to avoid similar problems by responding directly through official developer's comments as often as possible. Thank you for your understanding.

See you in the Open Beta Testing!

FINAL FANTASY XIV Director
Nobuaki Komoto

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Essentially they weren't content making you waste hours doing non-combat activities like navigating around entire zones due to insurmountable one inch ramps in the landscape, now they have decided to restrict the speed at which you level while essentially forcing you to level countless other jobs instead. They know MMO players will play for hours regardless, they're not doing this to protect their playerbase, look at recent FFXI design decisions such as Pandemonium Warden. That was only changed because of the massive shitstorm created by the media, prior to that point they thought it was perfectly acceptable for their playerbase to pass out playing their game. All this does is guarantee people will be grinding for years to level jobs and dutifully paying their subscriptions.

[Takelli]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

Essentially they weren't content making you waste hours doing non-combat activities like navigating around entire zones due to insurmountable one inch ramps in the landscape, now they have decided to restrict the speed at which you level while essentially forcing you to level countless other jobs instead. They know MMO players will play for hours regardless, they're not doing this to protect their playerbase, look at recent FFXI design decisions such as Pandemonium Warden. That was only changed because of the massive shitstorm created by the media, prior to that point they thought it was perfectly acceptable for their playerbase to pass out playing their game. All this does is guarantee people will be grinding for years to level jobs and dutifully paying their subscriptions.

QFT.

Why else would they want to restrict how fast you can level? Just so they can make more money, so you can't just pump through the levels.

Hell, FFXI took a full year to get your first job to 75. I don't want to spend an entire year (again) to reach max level and start doing the actual fun stuff.

[Absentia]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

QFT.

Why else would they want to restrict how fast you can level? Just so they can make more money, so you can't just pump through the levels.

Hell, FFXI took a full year to get your first job to 75. I don't want to spend an entire year (again) to reach max level and start doing the actual fun stuff.

I didn't realize the only fun part of FFXIV was the end game. I guess they should have just given us "FFXIV: Max!" and started us all at max level and given us only the end game zones.

If that's all that really seems to be 'fun' for you, why even bother playing the rest of the game? Why not just play a friend's maxed character?

[Takelli]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

I didn't realize the only fun part of FFXIV was the end game. I guess they should have just given us "FFXIV: Max!" and started us all at max level and given us only the end game zones.

If that's all that really seems to be 'fun' for you, why even bother playing the rest of the game? Why not just play a friend's maxed character?

I didn't say that end game was where all teh fun stuff was, but I fucking HATED the grinding. Grinding is pointless in games IMO.

Yes, there is plenty of stuff to do before end game, but good luck on trying to get people to do any of the lowbie stuff.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

If that's all that really seems to be 'fun' for you, why even bother playing the rest of the game? Why not just play a friend's maxed character?

This is the key point. It's down to the player to decide what they find fun and how they spend their time playing not S-E.

[jenova_9]

Re: Beta Testers unite to force SE to remove Fatigue system?

I think it will be all adjusted and figured out by the time March arrives.