FFXIV Storyline revealed!

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

I like how in FFXI, once you get into the storyline, you find out that the "evil" beastmen and the "good" Children of Altana aren't really all they seem. Every race has a ditry little secret they've covered up and you find the Beatmen often have had their land unfairly taken or were allies of them in the past.

spoiler

I mean Bastok basically tried to commit genocide on the Quadav and Sandy allied with the beastmen in their past. Then Basty was trying to do the same with the Galka that saved them to the point of covering up who really killed the Shadow Lord.

What about how the peace-loving taru were once a greedy invading empire of all other lands? It even turned out the Yags started fighting with the taru because they were draining the land with magic use so much it was damaging their livelyhood.

I hope they continue making things much more interesting than scrictly an evil vs a good race in FFXIV.

Really, the only beastmen in the original (pre-toau) areas who were treated unfairly were the Quadavs. The Orcs were a bloodthirsty, warring horde of invaders. Yagudo are religious zealots who tried to destroy Windurst because of their differing views. Antican are a plague like race who desire to conquer and spread to all they can reach. Gigas are much like Orcs in their destructive ways. Sahagin prefer to avoid all other races and Tonberries were mutated long ago and turned into the hateful little green toads they are today. It was only the Quadav who were ever "wronged" by the allied races. And not because of any attempts at genocide, but due to the fact that their ancient birthing grounds are located in an incredibly ore rich mountain. When Hume's started mining those tunnels the Quadav fought back, in response the Humes packed the tunnels with explosives and blew out many of them, with the Quadav still inside.

The allied races did have their dark sides and often fought with each other as much as they fought with the Beastmen. But most of the Beastmen were undoubtedly the aggressors. Though both Windurst and San'D oria did attempt to conquer the continents, both of whom failed due to both Beastmen conflicts and failed assaults on Bastok severely draining the invading forces.

As for the racial tensions within Bastok itself, it's not that the Galka were specifically treated bad by the humes, all lower class citizens of Bastok are treated fairly poorly. It's more of the fact that those who rose in political power were mainly self centered, silver tongued Humes who do not hide that apathy the Hume race is cursed with. It's not that Galka are treated with a specific prejudice, it's more that they're openly ignored in their concerns, much like all lower class citizens are. When combined with the Galka's ever present "rage", it leads to the negative feelings that fester and grow within their own community. While the Galka get angry at being ignored, the Humes just continue to ignore them fueling the Galkas to get even madder.

Also, one little issue about the History of Bastok from fairyoracle's link, at the start of the Crystal War, Hrichter Karst wasn't the Bastokan President. I don't even think he was a Senator at that point. His father, Derek Karst was however, as they both play roles in CS from WotG Bastok quests.

[fairyoracle75]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Also, one little issue about the History of Bastok from fairyoracle's link, at the start of the Crystal War, Hrichter Karst wasn't the Bastokan President. I don't even think he was a Senator at that point. His father, Derek Karst was however, as they both play roles in CS from WotG Bastok quests.

Like I said its a work in progress with what I found on the internet and various sources and I"m sure WOTG is changing some things previously believed. I haven't had a chance to do the nation quests yet so unless someone sends me them or posts them I'm not sure how to alter the information. If you'd like to share please do. ^^

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Man I should have paid more attention to the story lol.

[Malacite]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

The allied races did have their dark sides and often fought with each other as much as they fought with the Beastmen. But most of the Beastmen were undoubtedly the aggressors. Though both Windurst and San'D oria did attempt to conquer the continents, both of whom failed due to both Beastmen conflicts and failed assaults on Bastok severely draining the invading forces.

Bastok is up in the freaking no man's land surrounded by mountains and the ocean... plus they have guns. You'd have to be one seriously stupid mofo to attack the city. The Quadav at least, to their credit, had proper armor not to mention a back tunnel into the city (Zeruhn Mines via the boats from Palborough Mines, though this too could have simply been blasted shut).

The only way you're going to win a fight against Bastok realistically is by attrition; it's not exactly the most fertile place so you camp outside the city and put up a blockade along the coast a they're screwed. Otherwise, trying to march into a mountain fortress = suicide. It won't be long before any and all entrances are clogged by bullet-ridden corpses.


San d'Oria is another fairly stupid place to attack, though you could also easily screw them up by just setting the entire forest on fire. But, if you did that, then what the hell would be the point of taking over the place (unless you just want to kill all the occupants).


Honestly windurst is the only city I find to be truly screwed (coincidentally, it was also the only city to get sacked and rebuilt)

[Armando]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Bastok is up in the freaking no man's land surrounded by mountains and the ocean... plus they have guns. You'd have to be one seriously stupid mofo to attack the city.

If I remember correctly, Cid invented guns and it was thanks to that that San d'Oria didn't win the war against them. Cid and guns weren't always around.

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

You're right.. I just read the story last week.

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Bastok is up in the freaking no man's land surrounded by mountains and the ocean... plus they have guns. You'd have to be one seriously stupid mofo to attack the city. The Quadav at least, to their credit, had proper armor not to mention a back tunnel into the city (Zeruhn Mines via the boats from Palborough Mines, though this too could have simply been blasted shut).

The only way you're going to win a fight against Bastok realistically is by attrition; it's not exactly the most fertile place so you camp outside the city and put up a blockade along the coast a they're screwed. Otherwise, trying to march into a mountain fortress = suicide. It won't be long before any and all entrances are clogged by bullet-ridden corpses.

San d'Oria is another fairly stupid place to attack, though you could also easily screw them up by just setting the entire forest on fire. But, if you did that, then what the hell would be the point of taking over the place (unless you just want to kill all the occupants).

Honestly windurst is the only city I find to be truly screwed (coincidentally, it was also the only city to get sacked and rebuilt)

From my understanding, before guns were invented, Sandy and Bastok would often fight to stalemates due to Bastok's geographical surroundings, so yes, those cliffs and oceans did help protect the city during war. The fact that the city itself is literally surrounded by mountains, combined with the fact that the only way to reach the gates of the city is to cross a narrow bridge over a steep gorge means Bastok's defenses are top notch.

However with the conflict against Windurst, the two nations really fought a naval battle iirc. Windurst primarily used Mithra Mercenaries, who were highly skilled sailors while Bastok used it's impressive technology and Galka might (who are also skilled at sailing iirc) to overwhelm Windurst. At this point, Bastok has unquestionably the strongest navy of the three nations, which just helps to fortify it's defenses and prevent any open attacks by sea.

Though I don't really agree about San D'oria being a strong defensive strong hold. That forest works against them just as much as it works for them. And once an army gets into Ronfaure, they can easily surround the city. With the only real "choke point" being the Ronf/La Thiene zone line, Sandy leaves itself fairly open to outside attack. Which is why the Orcs were able to siege it as frequently as they did. But you're entirely correct about Windurst, easily the worst defenses of the main cities, which is why the Yagudo had no problems constantly breaching their walls.

If I remember correctly, Cid invented guns and it was thanks to that that San d'Oria didn't win the war against them. Cid and guns weren't always around.

The invention of guns and firearms turned a stalemate into a slaughter. Before guns were invented, most of the fights between Bastok and Sandy were fought on Bastokan land. After the invention of guns, Bastok was able to completely repel Sandy's forces and even push all the way into La Thiene where the bulk of the San D'orian army was gathered.

[Takelli]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Though I don't really agree about San D'oria being a strong defensive strong hold. That forest works against them just as much as it works for them. And once an army gets into Ronfaure, they can easily surround the city. With the only real "choke point" being the Ronf/La Thiene zone line, Sandy leaves itself fairly open to outside attack.

Well, Sandy has the huge wals around their city, and the watch towers they could place troops to rain arrows down upon attacking armies as they came by. They even had Ballistas, and Catapults if I remember correctly from what I saw from the past.

You can even place traps (And hide them easier) in the forest such as Pitfall traps, Bear traps, Trip wires, and so on. There is also more cover in the forests, and people would be able to hide in trees and ambush invading forces.

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

While I'd prefer not to get too deep into this...

Those trees would effectively hinder any watch towers and archers on the walls. Making it difficult to not only see enemy troops, but to also shoot them with any real accuracy. Any traps placed in the forest would be just as much of a threat to any Sandy troops there as it would be to any invading force. Without any natural choke points, both Windy and Sandy are wide open to a concentrated enemy assault. An invading army can spread a wide flank and assault on all sides, eventually something will break and the line will fall. Bastok's incredibly inhospitable terrain is literally just a series of choke points and easily defensible positions which would slow down any enemy, regardless of size, and slowly whittle away at them.

[fairyoracle75]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

::Grabs the popcorn and watches debate::

Thank goodness I'm not the only lore nerd. lol

[Malacite]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Though I don't really agree about San D'oria being a strong defensive strong hold. That forest works against them just as much as it works for them. And once an army gets into Ronfaure, they can easily surround the city. With the only real "choke point" being the Ronf/La Thiene zone line, Sandy leaves itself fairly open to outside attack. Which is why the Orcs were able to siege it as frequently as they did. But you're entirely correct about Windurst, easily the worst defenses of the main cities, which is why the Yagudo had no problems constantly breaching their walls.

Forest + Hidden Archers = proceed at your own peril. Plus the city itself is laid out like fortress strewn with ramparts so again, proceed at your own risk. It lacks the natural defenses of Bastok's terrain, but the Elvaan have proven themselves more than capable. There's even a reference in WotG of 100 Elvaan Knights felling over 2000 Orcs in a single battle. That's a 20:1 casualty rate! And it's not as though Orcs are unaccustomed to combat/war (they don't have guns though).


The interesting thing with Bastok is, it could have easily slaughtered everyone, but instead after the battle of Konschtat (I think it was Kon, pretty sure) where the R.K. were butchered by gunfire, they simply sat and waited for a retaliation that never came. Well, at least the official story got things right for once though in a fantasy setting even if the game mechanics prove otherwise;

Simply put swords bows & magic often don't mean jack shit in the face of guns/technology :D

Oh you got a magical sword that can split a mountain in twine? Cool, now here's bullet to the face, let's see who's faster

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Well both Sandy and Bastok have proven themselves in battles. And in many battles between the two, San D'orias superior numbers and training proved to be of little use against Bastoks impressive technology and tactics.

And it's true that Bastok could have destroyed San D'oria, and they almost did too after the assasxxxxtion of General Bavor, the man responsible for so many key victories against San D'oria. It was an attack that made use of the largest Bastokan army ever assembled and took place in La Thiene, where both sides took heavy casualties. Unlike the other nations however, who's attacks were fueled by the desire to expand their empires, Bastok had no interest in doing so (apathy coming up again). After such a brutal battle, the Bastokan forces retreated to their home and eventually the Selbina treaty was signed between the two nations thanks in part to the civil unrest that grew inside San 'D oria after the war.

[Armando]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

The interesting thing with Bastok is, it could have easily slaughtered everyone,

No, because then the other countries would gang up on you. Just because you have enough military power to outmuscle every other country individually it doesn't mean you can take on the entire world at the same time. San d'Oria learned that lesson the hard way when they thought they could take over everything just because they got magic. Bastok was right not to repeat the same mistake.

Bastok was in an advantageous situation anyways. If you have guns and the enemy is marching into your territory, of course you'll shoot them down. They were defending. Having guns doesn't render them immune to being sniped or ambushed in San d'Oria's forests, or having the shit nuked out of them outside Windusts' Walls. Obviously it still gives them an edge, but you can't assume they'll be just as successful at assaulting enemy territories as they'd be defending their own.

[Malacite]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

No, because then the other countries would gang up on you. Just because you have enough military power to outmuscle every other country individually it doesn't mean you can take on the entire world at the same time. San d'Oria learned that lesson the hard way when they thought they could take over everything just because they got magic. Bastok was right not to repeat the same mistake.

Sorry but you're dead wrong here. At the time, no one had any idea what a gun even was, and the battle of Konschtat wasn't even a fight but a massacre for the Elvaan; they barely put up a fight. Even the Bastokans had no idea the guns would tear them up so badly.

It would be the equivalent of the Modern Day U.S. Army marching in on say Ancient Rome; Yes the Legion was a well-trained and armed beast for it's time, but that's not going to help them much in the face of Assault Rifles.

Plus Bastok has the largest standing army, something like 40k troops. Last I checked that's more than San d'Oria and Windurst's armies combined. Now give them Guns and yeah, bye bye opposition. We already know the Elvaan were no match for Gunfire, and Windurst wouldn't fare any better since while Magic can be potentially devastating, it's also a time consuming act that leaves the caster vulnerable. And well, Guns = fast, ranged death. But then that wouldn't have made for a very interesting story now would it?

[Armando]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Yes the Legion was a well-trained and armed beast for it's time, but that's not going to help them much in the face of Assault Rifles.

Except they're not assault rifles, and if Bastok's the one invading, the enemy won't be fighting them head-on. I'm not a Bastoker so I don't know how advanced their guns are supposed to be, but if they were like our early guns they were inaccurate, prone to failure and took a long time to reload.

Plus Bastok has the largest standing army, something like 40k troops. Last I checked that's more than San d'Oria and Windurst's armies combined. Now give them Guns and yeah, bye bye opposition.

That's assuming every Bastoker unit gets a gun.

We already know the Elvaan were no match for Gunfire, and Windurst wouldn't fare any better since while Magic can be potentially devastating, it's also a time consuming act that leaves the caster vulnerable. And well, Guns = fast, ranged death. But then that wouldn't have made for a very interesting story now would it?

If they stand outside Windurst's walls they will get nuked. They're outside with guns, the mages are on ramparts nuking, early guns are just as time consuming to fire, and they're not that accurate.