FFXIV Storyline revealed!

[Malacite]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

I would prefer they take a similar route to how X and XII handled summons.

Buff up the summons for Christ sake, not the gimpy sad excuse for a pet they are in XI, but restrict the Summoner to commanding said summon and nothing else. Once your avatar is on the field, you personally lose the ability to do anything else but control the bloody thing. And really, I would think controlling a f'ing God to be no easy feat.

Side Note: This would have gone a long way towards addressing SMN's problem of being defined by the SJ; your SJ really won't matter worth a crap if you're too busy controlling your shiny avatar of pwnage.


... sorry, I just hate how gimpy SMN is in XI. Call me a fanboy, I don't care, but I miss the days of SMN being, as BBQ put it, the "Air Strike" guy. Lots of mana for big, shiny effect. Actually the more I think about it, how can you possibly even conjure up other magics while trying to sustain a deity anyway? And no, I don't count perp cost as a valid excuse.

I dunno, I just want to see summons return at their full strength with a reasonable cost/drawback to limit abusing them (not on the level of KotR, Eden or Magus Sisters, those were bullshit summons but still big nasty AoE death/buffs). Summoner always has and always should be all about impressive, large-scale effects that make your jaw drop. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this, but I've always seen WHM & BLM in the older games as your "regulars" while SMN is basically your "Oh SHIT" button. (or "Danger Close" if you prefer )

[jenova_9]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

FFXI 2 hour specials for the summons were very impressive! Well at least some like Ramuh and Shiva.
Ya summons should be airstrikes like they were before (with some being buffs like Carby), I think that would make
SMN back to the DD master it used to be.

Some may argue it might make Black Mage type class obsolete. But Summoners invest far more MP to summon stuff,
so I think it would be balanced since Summoners can't summon too often and need time to generate MP, while
Black Mages are better with damage over time, Summoners would be better with spike damage and should have AOE
versions of each summon attack too so summoners can control if the attack is focused on one target or multiple (this prevents them from accidentally aggroing nearby mobs)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc2tSokYh7w"]YouTube- FFT Summons[/ame]

[Malacite]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

FFXI 2 hour specials for the summons were very impressive! Well at least some like Ramuh and Shiva.

By who's standards? The level 70 and 75 pacts outclass them for single-target damage and don't use all your MP.

I think that was SE's biggest headache with SMN in XI; The focus was shifted to fighting mostly a single, very strong monster at a time rather than hordes of weaker enemies which was SMN's specialty.

[jenova_9]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

They then should have concentrated the summon's super attack into one major single target nuke.
The problem is that they treated summons like a wyvern, giving it auto attack and weak attacks besides the 2 hour, which I think wasn't that impressive with damage considering all MP was used up (compared to FFT summoners that can nuke several times before running out of MP and by those HP standards were very impressive with damage.)

FFXIV will involve some one vs many and many vs many normal battles, so I think a SMN might be more useful this time if designed right. They could be the "rocket launcher" specialist while black mages are the "shotgun" specialist (shotguns having more ammo).

The only thing during soloing purposes, SMN will be drained quickly of MP. they might be better off party based class and may work well together with a class that helps regenerate MP faster.

[Balfree]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

I'd personally like to be able to summon without actually being a summoner-class and that seems like how it will work.

[Malacite]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

I'd personally like to be able to summon without actually being a summoner-class and that seems like how it will work.

Well the game is set to launch without any pet jobs anyway, which I'm sort of happy about tbh. Maybe this time around they'll actually take their time and carefully plan them out, instead of releasing SMN & DRG in the broken states they did.

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Cool! It sounds like in the true sense of a mercenary we might be able to ally with Beast Tribes? I wonder if this might work like Fomor Hate or something? You know do more work for one group and the NPCs from the opposed group will target you? I don't want to suppose too much though. lol

Actually it sounds like goblins will be making a comeback as a merchant race of Beastmen. The whole "enemy of my enemy is my friend" bit refers to the five player races forming an alliance as opposed to fighting each other like they were in the past. Neither the Empire or the "Beasttribes" will be on our side, it's our five player races vs them. The more and more of this story I hear, the more and more it mirrors FFXI's overall story.

FFXII already did this, so it wouldn't be a huge leap.

Hell, it was initially planned for FFXI, so it being in FFXII (which was similar to XI's style of monster interaction) and FFXIV is no surprising at all.

... sorry, I just hate how gimpy SMN is in XI. Call me a fanboy, I don't care, but I miss the days of SMN being, as BBQ put it, the "Air Strike" guy. Lots of mana for big, shiny effect. Actually the more I think about it, how can you possibly even conjure up other magics while trying to sustain a deity anyway? And no, I don't count perp cost as a valid excuse.

Smn wasn't about pure "Air Strikes" until FFVII. Before then it was a mix of AoE attacks and AoE support spells.

Summoner always has and always should be all about impressive, large-scale effects that make your jaw drop. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this, but I've always seen WHM & BLM in the older games as your "regulars" while SMN is basically your "Oh SHIT" button. (or "Danger Close" if you prefer )

I think you are wrong since Black Magic and other special attacks have always been as strong (or stronger) then Summon attacks. Summoner and Summons have been just as much about Support, in both buffing and stat boosting capacity, as they are about damage. It's just that in VII, all the Summons did was damage in a big, flashy AoE spectacle. Which they can do perfectly well in FFXI to be honest.

I doubt we'll see a pure "Summoner" class in this game with traditional Summons in XIV, it's more likely that any summons we do "unlock" will have a character enhancing function or something.

[fairyoracle75]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Actually it sounds like goblins will be making a comeback as a merchant race of Beastmen. The whole "enemy of my enemy is my friend" bit refers to the five player races forming an alliance as opposed to fighting each other like they were in the past. Neither the Empire or the "Beasttribes" will be on our side, it's our five player races vs them. The more and more of this story I hear, the more and more it mirrors FFXI's overall story.

I didn't get that at all from what was said. It sounds like a totally different set up than FFXI to me.

A. In FFXI the adventurers are allied to the nation they start with and all your accomplishments are to advance the nation you are Allied with. We are presented as being in contention with the beastmen as adventurers. Even with Aht Urghan the storyline has you being asked to look into the conflict there in the interests what's happening there doesn't spill over to your Allied Nation.

According to the Devs on FFXVI we are essentially Allied not with any of the nations but with mercenaries. A mercenary is a soldier for hire but not officially part of the place they are serving. This seems to be indicated by all of the language we've seen before. Example:

Adventurers travel to Eorzea to find word at guilds started by ex-mercenaries that settled in the other five cities.

We aren't going to an Embassy or the the "capital" building for assignments but to a guild. This indicated we aren't officially assigned to the starting city but Allied with the guilds.

Eorzea is now a three-way deadlock between the “people” of the empire and the “people” of the beast tribes, and adventurers sometimes get caught in the crossfire.

If you are "caught in the crosfire" you aren't allied with either party. Basicaly this sounds like Adventurers are sort of stuck so we decide to do Mercenary work instead of nothing while we get beat for just being in the wrong point at the wrong time.

B. In FFXI all of the main beastmen in the conflict are Allied with the Shadow Lord now and don't fight with each other. So far it sounds like there will be warring factions within the beastmen tribes and even conflicts between Beastmen Tribes. With this obvious difference its not so hard to add in us doing mercenary missions for Beastmen as a possibility.

From the language the whole "enemy of my enemy is my friend" seemed to be talking about Beastmen Tribes and the Empire politically dealing with one another and not Adventurers.

Eorzea is now a three-way deadlock between the “people” of the empire and the “people” of the beast tribes, and adventurers sometimes get caught in the crossfire. According to the setting, the two are irreconcilable, but they do say the enemy of an enemy is a friend… not to mention, not all beast tribes view humans as enemies, and there may be those that live peacefully, those that betray, and even those that try to make deals with humans.

The "two" comes right after it mentions the Adventurers being caught in the "crossfire" between the "beast tribes" and the "Empire". Since Adventurers are caught in the crossfire the "two" must be the "beast tribes" and the "Empire" so the rest of the sentence and paragraph is talking about them. This must mean that the beast tribes with factions inside them might actually "betray" their own kind to the Empire and "make deals with humans" in the Empire. We Adventurers might get caught up in the middle of some of this intrigue.

You mention this all meaning there will be merchant beastmen but this information seems to indicate there will be political motivations. The only difference in the neutral beastmen we see, Goblins and Quirin, is they play both sides at the same time in FFXI. There are no pro-Bastok Quadav or Quadav that live in one area forsaking the Palabrough mines as the ancestrail breeding grounds. According to what we have so far this might very well be the case.

But don't think for a second that more complex AI on the field makes for more complex AI opponents. If SE can stick with the "use random abilities until someone dies" method they so love and have it work, they will.

Actually I'm sure I remember reading in one of the other sources that the mobs will learn as you fight them so you'll have to change how you're fighting them during the fight. Also in that same article it said there won't be turn based or anything autmatic about the fighting. I'll have to try and find it but for the mob to learn to me that indicated some sort of AI beyond FFXI.

SE said in this article:

As for the normal monsters, their behavior in the field has also evolved.

I don't think they'd say that if they were using the same system they always have.

[Malacite]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Smn wasn't about pure "Air Strikes" until FFVII. Before then it was a mix of AoE attacks and AoE support spells.

I was just quoting BBQ, and it's always been a mix of support and damage, but the bulk of summons have always been damage. I like how SE has started to give summons multiple abilities since FFX though so we need less of them over all.

I think you are wrong since Black Magic and other special attacks have always been as strong (or stronger) then Summon attacks. Summoner and Summons have been just as much about Support, in both buffing and stat boosting capacity, as they are about damage. It's just that in VII, all the Summons did was damage in a big, flashy AoE spectacle. Which they can do perfectly well in FFXI to be honest.

I doubt we'll see a pure "Summoner" class in this game with traditional Summons in XIV, it's more likely that any summons we do "unlock" will have a character enhancing function or something.

What are you smoking? Except for FF1 (and I think 3) where BLM had mass-death spells, SMN has always been more efficient at hitting multiple targets. I know what you're getting at though, and it's something I've been yelled at for saying before on here and that's BLM trumps SMN for DMG:MP against single targets, which is how it's supposed to be. Again however, XI is mostly about taking on a single enemy at a time, especially if there are groups of them so SMN more or less had to be heavily rebalanced (for the worse) to compensate without removing the need for BLM.

Don't forget that a lot of the older FF games also tended to have quite a few enemies with Auto-Reflect towards the end making SMN the ideal choice over BLM.

Really I just want to play SMN online in it's traditional support role. Like SCH, it's not meant to replace WHM or BLM but work alongside them to save the group major headaches via AoE spells out the wazoo at high cost to the SMN. But that's OK, because would you rather have the MP deplete their MP curing everyone or the BLM taking forever to individually strike down the enemy one by one, or have your SMN spend a large chunk of MP and get it over with instantly?

It's not like MP recovers terribly fast anyway, and if it ever gets to that point that's what updates and balance changes are for.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

For the love of all that is holy, do not turn this into a "What's wrong with SMN in FFXI". FFXIV, not FFXI. Keep that shit out.

I think the system FFVIII had for summons could work really well in the context of an MMO. Perhaps drop "drawing" spells and treating them as a commodity, but instead just letting summons imbue you with exclusive skills and abilities your jobs by themselves would not grant you. That and I think players should only be allowed to align with one at a time.

Not only would that let everyone summon, but ways to personalize your character even more. If the system placed less emphasis on summoning and more on forging a symbiotic relationship with the summon and gaining skills through it, I think that would be even better.

But if they're going to put in summons that we can challenge and acquire their aid then I'm going to take that to mean that its something any player can do. And if any player can benefit, that's worlds better than what they did with SMN in FFXI. I also keenly remember SE stating there were no plans for pet jobs. When you think about it, if anyone can have a summon, then there aren't really pet jobs at all.

And again, they had to dumb down the process to make summoner a more practical class in an MMO context. SMN never was about accessibility, it was about enduring trials and ascending in power to claim them all. FFXI was forced to compromise because grinding to 60 with Carbuncle was just a little too rigid and some people only ever wanted to be a summoner persuing nothing else to high level. I don't like that they made the Trial Size compromis aesthetically, but in terms of accesibility, I totally understand why.

But if everyone has to endure the same trials, then they don't have to make special exceptions for any one job. So let's just avoid the mistake of putting in a summoner job this time, k? We've had plenty of other games where we've had the summons without a summoner.

[Takelli]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Actually I'm sure I remember reading in one of the other sources that the mobs will learn as you fight them so you'll have to change how you're fighting them during the fight. Also in that same article it said there won't be turn based or anything autmatic about the fighting. I'll have to try and find it but for the mob to learn to me that indicated some sort of AI beyond FFXI.

SE said in this article:

As for the normal monsters, their behavior in the field has also evolved.

I don't think they'd say that if they were using the same system they always have.

I actualy hope they have. So no more random sleep AoE on a single person, or doing a poison move, then sleep right after. Or even using Bomb Toss at 95% Hp lol.

Hope they even have actual stratagies too. Like if they are loosing, they use a sleep, or a bind spell, then run away and get a few of their friends and come back. Or something like that. Not those random moves anymore.

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

A. In FFXI the adventurers are allied to the nation they start with and all your accomplishments are to advance the nation you are Allied with. We are presented as being in contention with the beastmen as adventurers. Even with Aht Urghan the storyline has you being asked to look into the conflict there in the interests what's happening there doesn't spill over to your Allied Nation.

In FFXI, you, as an "Adventurer" were a mercenary. You weren't affiliated with your nation past starting there and having access to select missions. And you could change your home nation, and the missions you had access to at any time. "Adventurer" was just a pretty word for "mercenary" as you would go around taking any and all jobs you could for money and rewards.

We aren't going to an Embassy or the the "capital" building for assignments but to a guild. This indicated we aren't officially assigned to the starting city but Allied with the guilds.

9 times out of 10 you didn't go to the Embassy or "capital" for quests either, you took them from people on the street who cried for help. The only difference is in FFXIV, these people who need help will offer their jobs to a merc company and we go there instead for easy access. Kinda like Assaults, just for the entire game.

Eorzea is now a three-way deadlock between the “people” of the empire and the “people” of the beast tribes, and adventurers sometimes get caught in the crossfire.

If you are "caught in the crosfire" you aren't allied with either party. Basicaly this sounds like Adventurers are sort of stuck so we decide to do Mercenary work instead of nothing while we get beat for just being in the wrong point at the wrong time.

Adventurers aren't just "caught in the crossfire", they're the main target. Both the Empire and the Beast tribes are trying to take over Eorza. It's not the Empire vs the Beast tribes, it's us vs both of them. The Empire attacks from the north, the Beast Tribes come from the south, neither of the two really see each other in battle because if they did it would mean they already wiped out the players.

B. In FFXI all of the main beastmen in the conflict are Allied with the Shadow Lord now and don't fight with each other. So far it sounds like there will be warring factions within the beastmen tribes and even conflicts between Beastmen Tribes. With this obvious difference its not so hard to add in us doing mercenary missions for Beastmen as a possibility.

Except Goblins, who are unaffiliated with anything but who can pay them the most. The "Beastmen" and the "Beast Tribes" are exactly the same. Groups of man like monsters with different cultures, beliefs and civilizations gathering together to wipe out players, with at least one race being more of an in between race who "plays both sides" as you put it.

Eorzea is now a three-way deadlock between the “people” of the empire and the “people” of the beast tribes, and adventurers sometimes get caught in the crossfire. According to the setting, the two are irreconcilable, but they do say the enemy of an enemy is a friend… not to mention, not all beast tribes view humans as enemies, and there may be those that live peacefully, those that betray, and even those that try to make deals with humans.

The "two" comes right after it mentions the Adventurers being caught in the "crossfire" between the "beast tribes" and the "Empire". Since Adventurers are caught in the crossfire the "two" must be the "beast tribes" and the "Empire" so the rest of the sentence and paragraph is talking about them. This must mean that the beast tribes with factions inside them might actually "betray" their own kind to the Empire and "make deals with humans" in the Empire. We Adventurers might get caught up in the middle of some of this intrigue.

According to the official information released on the actual site, Adventurers aren't just some poor saps that are getting caught in the middle, but the main target of both army's attacks. The Garlean Empire has already crushed one of the main Eorzan capitals. The Beast Tribes constantly raid and pillage Eorzan villages and towns. We, the players, are the Eorzans and these two armies are kicking our asses. They're not fighting each other, they're attacking us.

The official site already chronicles the history of how the playable races had to settle on an uneasy truce in order to survive against outside foes trying to conquer our lands, so the set up really is similar to FFXI's at this point. Hell, even the three starting cities have shades of Bastok/Sandy/Windy to them. The only real change so far is the third aggressors in the Garlean Empire throwing a monkey wrench into the mix and that "strange power" that's been mentioned that the players possess.

SE said in this article:

As for the normal monsters, their behavior in the field has also evolved.

I don't think they'd say that if they were using the same system they always have.

It means we'll see mobs who travel in parties, mobs who protect other mobs (Male goats being aggressive while females aren't) and mobs who might potentially attack each other (food chain system). They never mention anything about their combat AI being evolved, just their field behavior.

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

Well the game is set to launch without any pet jobs anyway, which I'm sort of happy about tbh. Maybe this time around they'll actually take their time and carefully plan them out, instead of releasing SMN & DRG in the broken states they did.

I agree.. I wanted to be a SMN till I saw how weak they were. I expected summons like from 10 also..

And like you said.. Maybe that is why they're not releasing them right away. That will be ten times better in the long run.

[Armando]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

And again, they had to dumb down the process to make summoner a more practical class in an MMO context.

If they hadn't made Spirits so fucking worthless and stupid and expensive (perpetuation-wise), they might not have had to. You would think you'd be able to do something with 8 elemental spirits, but no, they suck so hard that you've only got Carbuncle backing your ass up. They could've easily made Spirits the early game avatar replacements, and made avatars summonable only at 60, and there wouldn't have been the problem of a huge ass power imbalance between the Lv.1 SMN of a new Lv.30 player and the Lv.1 SMN of a Lv.75 that already has all 6 + Fenrir.

But I do agree with the speculation that we probably won't be seeing a SMN job or pet job any time soon, for the reasons already stated.

I also agree that Mal should can the SMN whining on account of this being XIV thread, but I couldn't find a nice way to say that.

[Malacite]

Re: FFXIV Storyline revealed!

It's a new game, and I'm just saying what I'd like to see different should they implement it in 14. As it stands, they don't know if there will even be a SMN class or not that's still being debated by the dev team according to Tanaka.

And yeah, Spirits could and should have been the substitute for the other avatars. I mean, why not make SMN a job you had to work for to attain supreme power? Hell, BLU has to go out and earn it's spells from sometimes horrendously strong monsters.


Anyway, I also think that BBQ brings up a good point about resurrecting the GF system, or something akin to it. They've said that in 14 the summons will play a critical role to the plot, so maybe they'll end up being boss fights and bestow a single unique skill to a player? That certainly would be new and cool.

For example, let's say they do bring back SMN and the party is fighting Ifrit. Now, the SMN will obviously want to have Ifrit himself as their reward. The Gladiator however, instead of getting gil or some silly niche gear like in XI, may opt to acquire a unique skill from Ifrit like say a permanent +20 attack bonus or the ability to absorb/cause fire damage or something. There should pretty much be something useful for everyone. Hell, since he's the Lord of Fire, maybe Blacksmiths can learn an advanced technique?