FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

You feel that way about trees? I think it just allows more customization on how YOU want your character to be.

[Kailea]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

You feel that way about trees? I think it just allows more customization on how YOU want your character to be.

eh I dont know, just never liked skill trees, and always felt that it could have been done a diffrent way.

[DakAttack]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

Oh god I hate talent/skill/job/class trees -.-

(this is how I feel about them, what I say is of course not fact)

Tree's make me feel like the devs think I am stupid (its to simple)
I hate how limited trees make players, because there are set tree paths, and thats it
Almost everyone and there mother do skill trees -.-

I don't think we've seen many examples of skill trees done right.

[Kailea]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

I don't think we've seen many examples of skill trees done right.

yeah I guess thats part of my problem with them.

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

What brought that up? I'm too lazy.

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

I'd rather see something like a mix of FFV/FFT's Job system and Blu's spell selection system. We'd all get all of our main classes abilities and any ability/spell we learned through leveling alternate jobs would be able to be set as extra abilities. Each of these extra abilities would come with a certain point value and we'd be able to set up to XX points worth of extra abilities. Stronger abilities would cost more points giving people less options to add to their ability list.

[CrimsonDeath]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

I agree with the idea of adding skill trees. The problem with them is that people build cookie-cutter ways of doing it. However SE could make it so that wasn't the case. WoW did it that way because they have too many wasted talents/points that you have to spend to get to something else, which puts a choke hold on customization. Customization is important in an MMO, but so is specialization. The option to specialize is an awesome way to customize.

[Takelli]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

Oh god I hate talent/skill/job/class trees -.-

(this is how I feel about them, what I say is of course not fact)

Tree's make me feel like the devs think I am stupid (its to simple)
I hate how limited trees make players, because there are set tree paths, and thats it
Almost everyone and there mother do skill trees -.-

You aren't the only one. I despise skill trees. There are many reason, but I will only list the main reasons as to why I think they suck.

1: They limit your character too much. If you want to have some magical power, you cant have the best melee skills with minor magic power.

2: Most skill trees are PERNAMENT. If I click the skill up button on a skill that I didn't want by accident, then I have to live with it, and be gimp even if it is just once.

3: Too many games have them. Its way to over done.

4: If you want an all around character, you are limited by the skill selections, and cant choose certain paths for a certain skill you want/need because in orcer to get the other skill you want/need, you need to spend all the points in one or the other to get the skill.

UNLESS! It is like the way FLYFF had it (the first way. They hit it head on with the way it was released but they gimped it SO much after a while.) At first it was you start off as a plain old swordsman, and you just whacked away at guys with sword. After a while you could choose a class/job/path, and they would give you a selection of skills you could use. It was set perfectly. The more you used a skill, the more it leveled. And to use other skills, the skills before it needed to be a certain level, AND you needed to be a certain level. Then you could use that skill. And as a skill leveled, the longer it took for the skill to level (Just as how it should be.). Then, as you leveled more, you could choose a second path (A more specalized path for your character path you chose.), and level those skills up by using them, and NOT using a point system.

If anyone ever played FLYFF when it first came out, they will know what I am talking about. If you ever played Ryzom, its kinda like that as well (But Ryzom did it better, but they didn't use levels.

[DakAttack]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

PERNAMENT

First, stats are what constrain your ability to be effective at both physical and magical attacks. Your physical effectiveness is often assigned to multiple attributes, whereas for magic it's limited to only one or two. To be good at either you're forced to invest in either family. Demon's Souls is one of the only exceptions to this rule that I know of; attributes curve early and become less significant about half-way to their max. You can still put points into them, but it's probably best to focus on something else for the sake of survivability.

Second, I don't know of any skill trees that are permanent. Blizzard even added an interface that will allow you to preview your talent changes before committing to them. I don't know much about any of the other games you might have played.

Third, overdone, but not done well. It doesn't mean it couldn't be done right and be completely awesome.


All I'm saying is it's not as terrible an idea as you guys claim it is. Theoretically, it should be about choosing your job and finding the path that suits your play style. Cookie-cutter paths exist when people find an optimal path and others begin recommending it and using it, too. There's no way around it.

Imagine if FFXI had talent trees and you're considering playing Paladin. Each talent tree would be based off of a character in-game who's paths you're able to follow. Ok, this is too similar to World of Warcraft's Paladin, so I'll choose a different job. Warrior; each path can follow a warrior from a different starting nation who's style reflects some part of that nation's style. A Warrior who follows a San d'Orian path would be knightly in certain aspects, whereas a Warrior following the Bastokan path would be one that would most likely tank, and the Windurstian Warrior would take some sort of Agility path.

A decision would have to be made on whether or not a talent tree or the job itself determines its role.

[Malacite]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

That's why I explicitly mentioned Diablo II's system. Now, it was pretty cookie cutter at first but still flexible. The synergy update however was one of the sweetest things I'd ever seen; points put into older, previously even useless skills would now greatly benefit higher ranking skills.

One example is my old Paladin Build. Thanks to the synergy update, the Prayer Aura now added bonus healing to Holy Bolt as well as a passive regen to the Meditation Aura. So basically by around 65-ish I had 20 Prayer/Holy Boly/Meditation and was keeping everyone else alive and refreshed while smacking down undead like nobody's business. It left my character extremely vulnerable to any other type of enemy but that didn't matter to me; what mattered is I could actually create a class build that previously was impossible (or at least very, very gimped and dependent on mana potions)

Second, I don't know of any skill trees that are permanent. Blizzard even added an interface that will allow you to preview your talent changes before committing to them. I don't know much about any of the other games you might have played.

Just about every game I've played with a skill tree system, once you drop a point into a stat/skill it's permanent. Now, I will admit that this is VERY frustrating if you screw up a choice, but otherwise you'd be able to freely swap skills which would be a bit unbalancing in an MMO setting. My stance on this with regards to Merits in XI is different because Merits are endgame, a total pain in the ass to rack up, and often for little benefit by comparison.

[fairyoracle75]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

Sounds like FLYFF was similiar to the original Star Wars Galaxies set up. I actually joined it to experiment with the skill trees but they nerfed it shortly after I joined. IMO I think the way you described in FLYFF or SWG is the only way skill trees can work.

In SWG originally you started with a base class and then branched off into a specialty later adding skills to it. You could however put some skill points into a tree from a different profession so you could be a self healing melee for example if you wanted.

Most skill trees I find a little pointless because the only freedom it gives you it the power to choose which stat in your palette is stronger than another.

[Takelli]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

All I'm saying is it's not as terrible an idea as you guys claim it is. Theoretically, it should be about choosing your job and finding the path that suits your play style. Cookie-cutter paths exist when people find an optimal path and others begin recommending it and using it, too. There's no way around it.

I am not saying that all of them are completly bad. All I am saying is IF they are done correctly, they can be very good and create VERY diverse characters and possibly prevent cookie cutter builds. It all depends on how it is done. I have yet to see a good one done since FLYFF (When it first came out), and Ryzom. Those are the only two that I have had a fun time with a skill trees.

Second, I don't know of any skill trees that are permanent. Blizzard even added an interface that will allow you to preview your talent changes before committing to them. I don't know much about any of the other games you might have played.

Many of the Free MMOS like to use Skill trees and they are all pernament from what I have played. WoW did theres a decent way, but it costs money (In game) to change the stats, and it increases for each time you want to change your stats.

Just about every game I've played with a skill tree system, once you drop a point into a stat/skill it's permanent. Now, I will admit that this is VERY frustrating if you screw up a choice, but otherwise you'd be able to freely swap skills which would be a bit unbalancing in an MMO setting. My stance on this with regards to Merits in XI is different because Merits are endgame, a total pain in the ass to rack up, and often for little benefit by comparison.

They had a system in Guild Wars where you can change your stats. But it was only for in town. If you placed a point in Strength as a Warrior, and you meant to put it in your Shield skill, then you could just go back to down, delete the point, and fix. But out side of town... You couldnt. But with the way GW had it set up allowed for MANY cookie cutter builds as people where able to swap their stats. But they where actually needed for certain areas.

[Jei]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

Oh god I hate talent/skill/job/class trees -.-

(this is how I feel about them, what I say is of course not fact)

Tree's make me feel like the devs think I am stupid (its to simple)
I hate how limited trees make players, because there are set tree paths, and thats it
Almost everyone and there mother do skill trees -.-

But leveling up your character is even more linear compare to skill tree... players don't have to make any decision at all.

You aren't the only one. I despise skill trees. There are many reason, but I will only list the main reasons as to why I think they suck.

1: They limit your character too much. If you want to have some magical power, you cant have the best melee skills with minor magic power.

2: Most skill trees are PERNAMENT. If I click the skill up button on a skill that I didn't want by accident, then I have to live with it, and be gimp even if it is just once.

3: Too many games have them. Its way to over done.

I don't know about you but I think I've seen more games with level than skill tree :/

But I guess levels in FFXI isn't permanent. You can always kill yourself and lose it huh.

[Coinspinner]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

When the growth was first being talked about it brought this to mind:



REally cool game. But if they ever even mentioned SaGa in the same breath as this game that would be the kiss of death for NA/EU players.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: FFXIV Character creation details revealed!

Why not just go with the grids that they've been doing with since FFX? They're actually the perfect way to customize and specialize.

All they'd be doing here is basing that sort of grid around the weapons of the game. Perhaps we won't have access to all 20 weapons from the outset and might need to graduate into them.

Perhaps you'd have to master the sword before moving on to the two handed weapon, clubs before staves or bows before guns. The next tier wouldn't particularly mean it was a stronger tier, but that you did well enough with the previous one to move on to master other weapons.

What I think its really important is whatever skills you're able to learn along the course of mastering any weapon is how many of those skills you'll be able to apply to other jobs you play with other weapons. I'd like to SE have some better checks and balances this time.

I don't think players should be strung along waiting for a skill to be useful like the subjob system forced did to us, at the same time, I don't think we should have as many skills to equip at one time. Maybe the number of skills you could use could expand over how much skill you have gained with a weapon, not unlike a SCH's strategems would expand every 20 levels after level 10.

Question there is how would they implement magic. If it unlocks a lot of spells, I might consider it being worth more than one skill slot.

I'd like to see something more akin to Final Fantasy Tactics, where you can learn anything, but only can use so much from other jobs. I'd like to draw skills from more than just a second job, too. It led to something more restrictive, but also more pesonalized than what we see from skill trees and the subjob system.