Site update discussion

[Malacite]

Re: Site update discussion

huh? Daggers were all sold as Daggers. Are you saying if Theifs return, they can use Chef's cooking knives too?

And Guns are all sold as ranged weapons, but you don't every job that can use guns being able to equip them all, or any other piece of gear for that matter.

PLD Has A+ shield rating, and yet there are some shields it can't equip even though it can use that shield type. I imagine gear will still have class denotations much like XI does, perhaps with some having priority over others or something idk. They will
need some way to sort it out when multiple classes can use the same weapon (although it may also be that no classes can share weapons of any sort)

In the case of daggers it would be as simple as adding a Cooking clause to the Knife's description. If you honestly think this takes up any significant amount of RAM...

[Armando]

Re: Site update discussion

Jenova, do you even play FFXI? It's blatantly obvious each weapon has subtypes. Never seen a RDM or THF swinging an Espadon. And yet PLDs and RDMs have the same skill: sword. OMG.

[Feba]

Re: Site update discussion

Isn't there a tonberry knife item that's used in FFXI cooking synths anyway?

---------- Post added at 05:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 AM ----------

nvm thinking ofhttp://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hocho

[Ziero]

Re: Site updte discussion

Skillet was never described as a weapon, but as a "tool." What cooks do you know that only work with frying pans? I've seen two rather prominent images depicting knives in relation to the culinarian. One from Lifestyle and the other from the job description.

Which would be the more practical weapon for a culinarian out in the field? I would hope it would be the knife rather than the frying pan.

I don't think Blacksmiths will just be carrying around anvils to a fight, they'll probably just take a good hammer.

Now that doesn't mean they won't ever use knives, because they will, to cook with.

You stated, as a fact, that Culinarians were the "only class shown at this point that specializes with a knife", but nothing about that statement is correct. They do *not* specialize in knives, especially in combat scenarios and there *is* another class that does specialize with some sort of knife. Using something as a last resort item and specializing in it are two completely different concepts. What would be most practical if you get aggro out in the field is if you changed to a job that's actually able to fight instead of swinging around a steak knife at things that are trying to kill you.

Synthing out in the field? Using an FFXI analogy for ease, suppose you're running low on food or juice? Common sense dictates that you should do it in a safe place but that doesn't change the fact that if synthing in the field is allowed, you COULD get aggroed while on your synthing job. And if synthing in the field isn't allowed that's a tad lame.I wouldn't conclude that the skillet is a weapon just because that's what you equip to turn into a chef.

I'm not concluding that the Skillet is a weapon you use to beat mobs over the head with, I'm saying it is the item, tool, main piece of equipment that represents Culinarians. It is what they specialize in and the thing that defines their class. But having said that, chances are, if you get aggro in the field while synthing, I doubt they'll lock you into your crafter class. I mean, what would an Alchemist use if they got caught synthing? Their main item is an Alembic, what are they gonna do, toss their flask of chemicals at a mob? Or what about Weavers? They use sewing needles, are they going to go up to that nasty old Morbol and prick one of it's tenticles? The crafting classes are not made to fight, and if they can do battle at all, it will probably extremely limited and use a highly generic weapon. But what they use to fight with, if they can fight at all, is *not* the item/equipment/"weapon"/tool/gear/whateverotherwordSEdecidestousetoday that represents the job class.

As Mal pointed out, this time around SE is using a very broad definition of the term "weapon". Elmer pointed this out as well in his rather lengthy article on the subject of the nomenclature SE is utilizing this time around. Specifically avoiding classic job names and instead referring to a class's functionality and choice of main gear. A Culinarian's main gear is a Skillet, that is the item that represents them just as much a spear represents lancer. There may be other tools of their trade, but none will describe the class better then a Skillet. Regardless of whether or not they can actually fight monsters, because chances are, they can't.

[Takelli]

Re: Site updte discussion

What would be most practical if you get aggro out in the field is if you changed to a job that's actually able to fight instead of swinging around a steak knife at things that are trying to kill you.

Thing is. If you are engaged with a monster, you cant change classes. Only when you arent being attacked/attacking can you change classes. So, they will need some way to defend themselves. They will mostlilely have a weapon because they did say that the classes that spelize in crafting can level up other ways instead of melee.

[Ziero]

Re: Site update discussion

...so crafting classes will have weapons because they can level up in other ways then fighting?

And once again, the key point I'm trying to stress is that even if these crafting jobs can fight, the weapon they use to fight is *NOT* the weapon/item/tool/object/insertnewtermhere that they specialize in.

[Takelli]

Re: Site update discussion

And once again, the key point I'm trying to stress is that even if these crafting jobs can fight, the weapon they use to fight is *NOT* the weapon/item/tool/object/insertnewtermhere that they specialize in.

And I never implied that. I was just stating that you said you had to change classes in order to fight if you get aggro, but... you cant change classes while you are fighting/attacked.

[Armando]

Re: Site update discussion

And once again, the key point I'm trying to stress is that even if these crafting jobs can fight, the weapon they use to fight is *NOT* the weapon/item/tool/object/insertnewtermhere that they specialize in.

Yes, but you don't use a weapon for the same thing you use a tool. They can "specialize" in skillets when cooking and still specialize in knives for combat. Your point is like saying that PLDs specialize in shields, not swords.

The frying pan is their representative item, yes, we got that already.

[Ziero]

Re: Site update discussion

No, my point is more that a Pld can use Great Swords, but specialize in swords. Or a Blm can use a Dagger but specialize in casting spells. Just because they can use something, it doesn't mean it's something they specialize in. And it's more likely then not that crafting classes will have zero "specialties" when it comes to combat. These "classes" are not combat classes, any actual 'weapons' they do have will be nothing more then a last resort self defense thing. Much like how every job in FFXI has club skill, it's just there, not something to focus on or specialize in.

When push comes to shove, a cooking knife is just as much a tool as a skillet is a weapon.

And I never implied that. I was just stating that you said you had to change classes in order to fight if you get aggro, but... you cant change classes while you are fighting/attacked.

Where has it been said that you can't change classes when you get aggro?

[Takelli]

Re: Site update discussion

Where has it been said that you can't change classes when you get aggro?

In the thread that TGM has about all stuff FFXIV. It says you can change outside of battle. Besides. if you could change mid battle, wouldn't that be a bit too ovr powerful?

[Ziero]

Re: Site update discussion

How is running away from a monster being in battle?

[Armando]

Re: Site update discussion

If it weren't, you could conveniently change jobs by disengaging and "running" from the mob. Unless the condition for not being in a battle is specifically "you haven't done any action whatsoever to the enemy," you'd be able to change jobs in the middle of an encounter.

[jenova_9]

Re: Site update discussion

well they said Land and Hand Jobs can reach their skill caps without needing to ever battle. So ya I think they aren't meant to fight anyway.


If they had to, they would switch weapon to one of the War/Sorcery jobs.

[Malacite]

Re: Site update discussion

More interesting analysis;

Eorzeapedia: Final Fantasy XIV (FFXIV, FF14) News, Wiki, Forums, Community and more � Analysis of (and some speculation from) the Official Website Update

Posted By Gahoo on October 9, 2009

FFXIV - Galka - Official Site Update

Now that we have all digested the new information released by Square Enix on Wednesday, it is about time we took a look at exactly what information was released – both explicitly and implicitly. While some implications are obviously, some might be better labeled as speculation. Remember, while SE loves lore, they are very strict on what information they release and what they don’t. So we can assume (right?) that the information they chose to release was intended to serve a purpose. Either way, let’s jump right in.

FFXIV Beastiary Site Page

Beastiary Page

Beastiary

Now let’s start with where SE started – the Beastiary. Square has unveiled 10 families – some new and some old – but has provided some in-depth information about certain of these families. The mob families identified are: Ahriman, Aldgoats, Antelopes, Cactuar, Mammet, Morbol, Ogres, Opo-Opo, Puks and Raptors. For whatever reason, SE did not list some other mobs we’ve seen – such as the Dodo.

The Beastiary overview is pretty straightforward. We learn that we will fight beasts in order to farm crafting ingredients. SE implicitly separates the concept of fighting the Eorzean wildlife from fighting battles (”taking up a blade against the realm’s wildlife can be no less dangerous than standing in a shield wall on the frontlines of battle, or defending a fortress against a bloody siege”). While this is again not surprising, it suggests that the larger scale fights between sentient humanoid mobs (i.e. beastmen) will of course play a part in FFXIV.

From within the Beastiary we get official lore on three of the families Aldgoats, Antelopes and Raptors. What do we learn?
Aldgoat

Aldgoat

We learn from both the Aldgoat and Antelope information that there are male and female varieties of these mobs. While FFXI had rams and sheep – so this is not entirely new – it is intriguing that SE chose to highlight this distinction in two of the three summaries we were given.
Antelope

Antelope

We learn from Aldgoats that they can be “domesticated and raised as livestock.” This just background information or are we getting hints about another Disciple of the Land – the Farmer? Rancher? Breeder? (See below speculation on Disciples).
Raptor

Raptor

We glean a bit more from the Antelope and Raptors about the way mobs will travel in groups and link. Male antelope are “ne’er alone” and will travel with a herd of females – and “the entire herd will attack should any of their members come to harm or danger.” Similarly, raptors travel and hunt in pair, with one acting as a decoy. This is consistent with what SE has previously said about being forced at times to engage groups of mobs (or at least having to be more precise with pulls and engagement) and with an significantly increased mob AI which will have to be learned and accounted for by the playerbase.

Most notably from all three descriptions we learn that – surprise – mobs will drop crafting items. Sure we all knew this would be the case – but now it is confirmed with 2 drops from each family. We see the standard fare – skins, furs, horns, meat and claws. We are expressly told of uses of raptor fangs (did they mean claws?) in alchemy, but we can pretty much be assured that meats will be used by Culinarians and hides and skins by Tanners.

Disciplines

Next on SE’s update were the Disciplines. As with the beastiary, we are provided with a ton of new information. Obviously the most significant news is that Square Enix has confirmed five Disciples of War and five Disciples of the Hand. Disciples of War are – Archer, Lancer, Gladiator, Marauder, Pugilist and the Disciples of the Hand are – Alchemist, Blacksmith, Culinarian, Tanner, Weaver.

So the first bit of speculation is that we’ll get five Disciples of Magic and five Disciples of the Land. There have been reports of Shaman, Druids and Illusionists for additional Magic disciplines, but only Thurmaturge is listed. Botanist is revealed as a Disciple of the Land (formerly speculated to be called “Horticulturist”) and previously SE has confirmed a Fisherman class (although the name has yet to be confirmed).
Lancer

Lancer

As before, we get some in-depth information about two of the Disciples of War (Archer and Lancer) and all five Disciples of the Hand. What can we glean from this new information?
Archer

Archer

We learn that Archers are skilled with not only bows (including short-bows) and arrows, but with rocks from range. There is language about battle tactics of “sharpshooting and high-angle fire” – likely references to weapon skills or battle stances from which players must choose when setting their abilities. Lancers are also ranged attackers, using various kinds of lances and polearms (”myriad other polearms designed for slashing or bludgeoning”), but also using throwing javelins from longer range.

While no information was provided for Gladiators, Marauders or Pugalists, the focus on the attack range for Archers and Lancers, as compared to the presumptive semi-close range needed for a Gladiator (sword) and Marauder (Axe) and extremely close range needed for the Pugalist (hand-to-hand), suggests again that battle strategy will be more pronounced in FFXIV than in FFXI.
Alchemist Alembic
Blacksmith Cross-pein Hammer
Culinarian Skillet
Tanner Headknife
Weaver Needle

On the Disciples of the Hand side we gain a lot of valuable (and new) insight. Like the Disciples of War and their weapons of choice, each Disciples of the Hand has an associated with a particular tool.

We also learn a few more interesting, and not so interesting things:

* The Alchemist deals in both “curative concoctions” and “potent potables” – perhaps not so surprising.
* Smithing seems to encompass both the creation of new items or ingredients (”smelting an ingot”) to repairing armor (and presumably weapons) out in the field (”hammering the dents from an adventurer’s breastplate”) – perhaps already known.
* Culinarians “help adventurers maintain their strength on the battlefield.” Not much information here, coupled with the interview report that food plays a different role in XIV than in XI, we can speculate that the word “maintaining” and “strength” were intentionally chosen. Perhaps food is more for restoring health in between battles than increasing stats during battles.
* Tanners deal with pelts (fur) and skins as “armourer and clothier”. So Tanners appear to be – again not surprisingly – crafting (and repairing) leather armor. Notably however, tanners also are known to “dabble in hunting and trapping” – suggesting a possible additional Disciple of the Land class.
* Weavers are the crafters of cloth. Not much of note here, there is a lot of talk about fashion and trends. Could it be that there will be more to one’s clothes than simple battle utility?

So while not a whole lot here, we get a glimpse at two possible Disciple of the Land classes (the rancher/breeder and the hunter/trapper). Presumably there will need to be someone able to gather fiber for the weaver (i.e. harvester – unless it the announced Botanist) and ores for the blacksmith (i.e. miner). Notably, there is no suggestion of a woodworking class yet.

Lifestyle
Culinarian 2

Culinarian wielding a knife

The final updated section is called “Lifestyle” and focuses on the story of Aeleyora the Culinarian. This is a worthwhile read for the story itself, but let’s focus on what’s revealed and speculate a little about its meaning – there are five parts to the story – broadly speaking – ingredients, location, kitchenware, improvement and sale. The story focuses on cooking, but I think we can safely assume that the other Disciple of the Hand classes will work in a similar fashion.

Aeleyora goes to a market to purchase raw materials to cook. That’s a good start. We have another reference to harvesting of materials, a reference to a “stand” and to a sale. Well while we’d expect gathering places and NPC vendors, the suggestion of a sale is curious (although prices vary in FFXI as well). But even more curious is the next line which indicates that she bargained for an even lower price or an inferior cut of meat. Might all this be simple story? Sure. But if you accept the premise that Square Enix reveals information for a reason – we are left to wonder why they would add this otherwise totally unnecessary piece of information unless it was at least somewhat meaningful. Can we bargain with NPCs? Will there be quality grades on goods – including not just a +1 type of product, but a -1 counterpart? The ability to haggle and bargain with NPCs suggests an elaborate and sophisticated market mechanism whereby the prices for raw goods (and hence finished products) can vary greatly. This is a find balancing point for SE – who knows full well that even small variations in prices can lead to unintended consequences and allow for RMT activity.
Culinarian 1

Culinarian with a skillet

The location tab reveals that cooking in a city guild will require the payment of a surcharge, but will improve the chances of cooking higher quality, or quantity, goods. The story reveals that in addition to cooking in the guild, cooking can be done anywhere in the field.

The kitchenware tab reveals something interesting – there will be multiple skillets that a culinarian can use and which is used will affect the outcome. This is inline with the statements made by SE that these crafting classes will play a more prominent role than similar crafts in FFXI. There could be the same number of Bows to obtain by the Archer as their are skillets for the Culinarian. Also of note is that despite the skillet being the “tool of the trade,” it also talks about her use of a knives (again plural), suggesting again that the system will be decidedly more complex than anything we’ve seen.

There is some standard information revealed about skilling up, insofar as a recipe that produced 3 kabobs will produce 12 after you’ve mastered the recipe. We are told that, like XI, a crystal will be needed to cook. There is some suggestion that such increased skill is on a per-recipe basis, as the text talks about making “these kabobs countless times”. There is also a reference to “her recipe compendium”. It could be that recipes are more difficult to come by this time around – and the knowledge of a particular recipe is one factor that can set apart one culinarian from another.

The final page speaks of the economy, but provides little useful information. Aeleyora sells the kabobs back to the same Lancer from whom she bought the aldgoat meat (nb. so they tell us we can make Aldgoat kabobs). The economy is obviously something that takes time to develop, but SE knows that a fully functional and realistic economy is a necessity. What is perhaps most interesting is what was not mentioned in this whole story – an auction house. She bought from NPC vendors and sold directly to players. SE has stated that there will be some sort of auction house, but has thus far provided no details.

* * *

That’s it. Hope we fleshed out some of the shinny new digs provided by Square Enix. Did we miss anything? Did we simply report the obvious? Was there something you had missed when you looked at the official site? Drop us a line and let us know!

So, if there's no woodworking (at least the start, I can't see them not adding it later) does that mean Archers will look to Smithing for their ammo & bows? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Some bows may have a few metal parts, but the majority of the weapon is constructed from Wood (or in Today's case strong plastics I believe)

And while we lack confirmation, I'm going to be glad to see FFXI's HELM aspects such as Miner finally have their own skill ratings. Sure would be cool to take up mining as an actual class. Though they say disciples of the Hand don't need to ever battle, can the same be said for those of the land? I can see that holding true for fishermen, but not for miners and certainly not lumberjacks who delve into the forest.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Site update discussion

It was interesting that he pointed out the "recipe compendium." Could be instead of just skill grinding a craft with stuff you saw on a website that you have to go out and obtain/learn recipies either through mob drops or NPC conversations in various points of the game.

Being a cook or blacksmith that has to venture out into the world, make connections, find new tools, recipe/instructions and such would not only make things a bit more realistic, but it would also slow RMT activity. RMT needs a clear path to really thrive, put up nothing but obstacles and competition and you will frustrate and discourage them, but not players who accept it as part of the game. Making the general player and not top-end crafters the competition you face would change things dramatically.

More and more, I feel inclined to start on on the crafting side of the game.