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Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

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  • Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

    Looking at the recent post in the locked thread, one thing really stood out... transparency (or at least the lack of shading around the bars and stuff) all over the place in the UI. That may look cool for a demo, but I suggest everybody go into their config menu and try changing their FFXI skin to a high-transparency skin and try playing for an hour or so.

    All done? (Okay, I cheated and didn't actually do it, but I'm pretty sure you can.) Doesn't it suck when you can't see shit half the time because it's camoflauged in the background? I'm not even talking about the text as much as the bars. Just try to read them in those pictures in the post I linked. Even FFXi has some problems (looking at pet HP bars can be a pain depending on the background), but not too many if you use the default skin.

    One word: contrast. It's something that Anime fansubbers learned long long ago, but when the first anime DVDs came out, subtitles were hard to read because the people who made the first DVD authoring software didn't understand that you need more than a one pixel outline, especially with NTSC video. FFXI keeps most bars inside of shaded boxes that keep the contrast relatively consistent, with only a little transparency. Just try reading some of the text in those screen shots. No, not the chat log (though it is still hard to read in places even with shading), I mean the quest name, monster name, weapon skill (?), etc.

    And there's one thing that's the exact opposite. I noticed in some of the videos there is an opaque blue message box right smack in the middle of the screen, blocking whatever it was you were looking at. With FFXI, it's only the status icons that really get in my way when looking at stuff (can I plz has moving my mans downward in the screen?), but I'm using PS2, and with a full alliance going, half the screen is taken up with panels and menus most of the time, so it's going to suck for me no matter what.

    It's nice to have an artist designing parts of the UI. But artists don't generally understand usability. (They still should understand contrast.) And companies tend to skimp on testing for usability. (The notable exception was Apple back in the early '80s when they were designing the Lisa and Macintosh.) At least being able to move parts around is an improvement over FFXI. Now if they could keep everything else from being a regression in terms of usability, maybe we would have something.

    (And I still see no indication as to whether or not you can see another player's current buff/debuff status.)
    Last edited by Elwynn; 08-25-2009, 04:33 AM.
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  • #2
    Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

    I agree that overly transparent box's are bad and big box's taking up part of the screen are annoying but even if it was possible that the internal test team didn't pick up on it, those issues would be flagged almost immediatly by the Beta testers so it is very unlikely it will make it into the final product.

    Right now there is no indication that there is or isn't FFXI style alliances in FFXVI, if there are it is likely that the alliance window is movable just like the box's we have seen, they may even be customisable to turn off or re-size too if we are lucky. Even if they weren't the swamping the screen issue is less likely on FFXVI because the output resolution will be considerably better than PS2 giving you more space on the screen.

    Please try and remember that the product itself is still only in Alpha, somewhere between 40 and 50% complete according to Tanaka. He also confirmed that the graphics themselves were not complete and that the graphics and UI were subject to future changes. Furthermore the software presented as gamescom is setup specifically for demonstration purposes only, so it is unlikely to be the "latest" code with the latest UI and graphical updates, instead it is likely to be slightly older code that is known to be stable enough for the purpose of giving the demo.

    We have to rely on the testers doing their job properly and the lessons learnt excercise by S.E. to not reproduce the same problems that users faced with FFXI.
    Last edited by Dux; 08-25-2009, 05:08 AM. Reason: Minor clarifications
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    • #3
      Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

      Even FFXI isn't flawless.

      Dunes can be blindingly stupid, literally. I've had times where it's hard to make out what's going on because it's just so bright during the day there.

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      • #4
        Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

        Originally posted by Feba View Post
        Dunes can be blindingly stupid, literally. I've had times where it's hard to make out what's going on because it's just so bright during the day there.
        Honestly I always liked that effect (and you are exaggerating how bad it is) since real white sand dunes do exactly the same thing. It made it look like it was damn hot in the dunes that day.
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        • #5
          Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

          I'm the same way in regards to the dunes (Xarc does this as well at times). All that white sand should be blindingly bright at certain times of day, just like how sandstorms should limit visibility and other natural phenomenon as such.

          As for the interface question, at this time the interface we've seen is nothing but the roughest rough test of how it all works. Ironically, this whole "FFXIV will suck if it does this!" mentality is exactly why companies don't like showing off unfinished Alpha work. Because they know they have to change things and will do exactly that, but people will still point and scream about how bad it is. Even though it's blatantly unfinished, unpolished work, people still act like the finished project will look that way and voice their complaints about it.

          So wait a few months, when the open beta starts up and is underway for a few months (they'll be changing a lot during the beta as well) to get a better understanding of how the game will look. Until then, just enjoy the pretty pictures.
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          • #6
            Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

            Regarding the UI of FFXI, most complaints I hear about it generally don't involve where everything was located.

            If that's the only part of the UI that they "fixed," it may seem that they have not learned anything at all from the complaints, and are thus doing it all wrong.
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            • #7
              Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

              Feba's not exaggerating.

              My first trip to the dunes is what prompted me to mess with my windows to get a "visible-while-walking-on-sun" chat box theme.
              "And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?"

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              • #8
                Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

                the target graphic should be changed.

                [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoZ39MMzGEI"]YouTube - FFXIV @Gamescom: Cure[/ame]

                even enjoying a Cure special effect can't be fully enjoyed without that circling effect in the way. at least XI's target arrow was off the people or enemies you target.

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                • #9
                  Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

                  Originally posted by Mhurron View Post
                  Honestly I always liked that effect (and you are exaggerating how bad it is) since real white sand dunes do exactly the same thing. It made it look like it was damn hot in the dunes that day.
                  I agree that it did add to the game's "feel" but at times it was too much. Ihad to adjust my tv's brightness at times because the dunes would give me a migraine. LOL
                  Originally posted by Feba
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                  • #10
                    Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

                    Originally posted by Lmnop View Post
                    My first trip to the dunes is what prompted me to mess with my windows to get a "visible-while-walking-on-sun" chat box theme.
                    Actually... The dunes arent bad compared to Qufim's "double light" weather effect they get. Sure, it may look nice, but it hurts your eyes after about 5 minutes.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

                      I definitely agree that transparent windows are fail. Chatlog in WoW is so fucking hard to read.

                      Gamma became less of a problem later in my gaming life, as I could adjust it through the Windower console.
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                      • #12
                        Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

                        Gotta agree with Ziero here, some of y'all are jumpin to conclusions, for fucks sake, its only in alpha! Sheesh! And to be honest, the transparency didnt bug me one bit.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

                          Originally posted by Ziero View Post
                          Ironically, this whole "FFXIV will suck if it does this!" mentality is exactly why companies don't like showing off unfinished Alpha work.
                          Uh, no. This is the entire reason alpha and beta tests are useful-- it allows people to get an idea of what the product is like, and to provide feedback BEFORE release. MMOs are lucky enough to be able to update if there are problems, but then you have to deal with springing a new UI on people, and so on. The point is to iron out the kinks before you ship the product.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

                            It IS the point of Alpha and Beta, but they get feedback there ... this is rampant speculation without a way to test, and no obvious feedback (they COULD be watching, but we're not even sure about what we're speculating on...)

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                            • #15
                              Re: Pervasive transparency in the UI? I hope not.

                              Speaking of the UI.

                              I wonder if there will be a Tanaka Classic UI (meaning XI's style) option in there.


                              If not maybe I should consider bombarding SE with letters requesting it.
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