What, no levels?

[Cyprius]

Re: What, no levels?

I must be some kind of glutton for punishment or something, then.. Because I think that's too easy still.

Whatevs.

[Takelli]

Re: What, no levels?

I must be some kind of glutton for punishment or something, then.. Because I think that's too easy still.

Have you played GW the way it was meant to be and not have a lvl 20 (max lvl) run you through everything?

If you havent, I suggest you try it. Even a few missions are impossible to run right past.

[Feba]

Re: What, no levels?

One character honed for ranged attacks, the other for magic.

Keep in mind that it takes a lot of effort to raise two characters. I wouldn't be surprised if you would've had a quicker time trying to get 8 75s than four 75s on two separate characters. Some people get 75s easily because they just have their process very streamlined, and get through it quickly, not because it's any great effort they undertake.

Not that a lot of people with multiple 75s aren't gimp dicks.

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: What, no levels?

Then don't play games that do it. Simple enough.

I made a character exclusively for COR and RNG, so yeah, I have the patience for going down that path. Even redid many of the missions in the game.



The game has been out for less than six years in the US, almost four in european territories.

I've played the launch of it on PS2 and only have four 75s and several months back, I reached the conclusion that with the exception of BST, its all I cared to ever have. Particularly since I quit BRD upon hating how people treat it at 75.

So COR, BST, RNG and SCH. All I need. One character honed for ranged attacks, the other for magic.

I coulda swore it came out in 2001. but it's been so long so what do I know?

[Nuriko]

Re: What, no levels?

I'm seriously wondering just what sort of "no level" model they might be using ... I mean, I know early Star Wars Galaxies (you get types of XP depending on skills used, and allocate that into skill trees, unlocking other trees, and the boxes buff stats directly) and Saga of Ryzom (again, types of XP, but skills are linear numbers, and you get skill points to buy stats and spells/actions). In either case, improving your combat abilities tends to improve your durability, but they were pretty different in execution. Really, I think we'll just need to wait and see...

[Cyprius]

Re: What, no levels?

Have you played GW the way it was meant to be and not have a lvl 20 (max lvl) run you through everything?

If you havent, I suggest you try it. Even a few missions are impossible to run right past.

It's hard to describe.. But I'm not even just necessarily talking about the difficulty of the game itself. I just think the ability to change your character in an instant with such ease takes the fun out of the game.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: What, no levels?

I must be some kind of glutton for punishment or something, then.. Because I think that's too easy still.

Whatevs.

It's hard to describe.. But I'm not even just necessarily talking about the difficulty of the game itself. I just think the ability to change your character in an instant with such ease takes the fun out of the game.

FFXI really has both costly and free character customization changes. Merits are the customizations which are costly to change. Your subjob provides the customization which is free to change. Additionally jobs can use multiple weapons.

I still suggest they need to let you merit (unlock) everything and freely pick which ones to use at any time. You'd still have to go through the grind to earn the merits and prioritize where to improve first. The idea is not loosing anything you've earned. The current system hurts ones ability to play multiple jobs on the same character since they benefit from different merits (enmity, attributes, weapon skill, etc). We aren't saying take merits from one thing and move them to another.

Ultimately I think they'd be nuts to ignore what the subjob and merits brought to FFXI. I expect them to add more customization not less. I don't see why I cannot obtain all my abilities in a job (think BLU spells) and then choose which to use at any time. Why should I be forced to loose something to change how I've customized by character?

Were we talking about WoW, I'd be suggesting they change the talent trees to require you unlock all of the talents and then be able to freely use a subset at any time. I suppose you'd unlock talents you didn't pick while leveling through something similar to merits. Now you are increasing the grind while providing more freedom, and who doesn't want more freedom?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: What, no levels?

It's hard to describe.. But I'm not even just necessarily talking about the difficulty of the game itself. I just think the ability to change your character in an instant with such ease takes the fun out of the game.

I look at it like this. I'm the same person even if I have skills in more than one thing. As long as I have what I need on me, then I should be able to use abilities by equipping what I need in order to do them. Why should I have to go back to a house and have some npc tell me that its ok now for me to use my other abilities?? I should be able to access them wherever I am as long as I have what I need. It's a step in the right direction, imo.

[Cyprius]

Re: What, no levels?

I look at it like this. I'm the same person even if I have skills in more than one thing. As long as I have what I need on me, then I should be able to use abilities by equipping what I need in order to do them. Why should I have to go back to a house and have some npc tell me that its ok now for me to use my other abilities?? I should be able to access them wherever I am as long as I have what I need. It's a step in the right direction, imo.

You're confusing what I'm saying..

I'm not talking about the actual process of changing. I love the fact that we can change weapons and with it our abils wherever we want in XIV. I'm talking about relocating the skill points you get when leveling/grinding. I just think that the ability to completly change your skills for free whenever you want, is too easy.

Isn't there supposed to be some kind of strategy in how you build your character to begin with? I've gone over many times that if you make a mistake, or regret a certain something, then you can change it.. But the more significant the change becomes, the more gil, for example, you would have to pay to make that change.

FUCK!!!!!!!! Is the game out yet?

[Coinspinner]

Re: What, no levels?

I don't see this working; in XIV, your weapon is your job. By changing weapons, you effectively change job and what would be your job level. In XI, if I change weapons, I'm still a Lv.60 WAR. In XIV, the equivalent of a Lv.60 Great Axe WAR might turn into a Lv.20 Sword and Shield WAR after the switch.Skill trees don't suck when you can reroll at a low cost. They only suck when it's painful to reroll.

One player chooses to level axe and shield, the other levels of sword and shield. They are both discples of war, and they both tank. If the axe warrior is different from the sword warrior, due to different abilities usable with their respective weapons, then that's meaningful and non-cosmetic customization.

That is the sort customization I meant. Based on what Square has said and what they've shown that seems to be the direction the game is headed. I don't expect any deep customization within the weapons themselves. If anything was shown that gives that impression I missed it.

I am really curious how HP and MP are handled. It seems that "class" is about as meaningful as the titles in Suikoden III, more like a way to /search for players or shorthand for describing your character than anything.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: What, no levels?

I just think that the ability to completly change your skills for free whenever you want, is too easy.

Isn't there supposed to be some kind of strategy in how you build your character to begin with? I've gone over many times that if you make a mistake, or regret a certain something, then you can change it.. But the more significant the change becomes, the more gil, for example, you would have to pay to make that change.

Aren't you jumping the gun? Are you sure thats how the game is going to be or are you assuming from the limited bit of info that we've heard?

I've played MMO's were you build certain stats and it usually takes several months after release before someone figures out the "optimum" configuration for whatever class you are. Then several months after that it changes to another configuration! It's maddening! I'm actually not a fan of assigning stat points and I'm hoping that it won't be applied in FFXIV.

[Kailea]

Re: What, no levels?

Aren't you jumping the gun? Are you sure thats how the game is going to be or are you assuming from the limited bit of info that we've heard?

I've played MMO's were you build certain stats and it usually takes several months after release before someone figures out the "optimum" configuration for whatever class you are. Then several months after that it changes to another configuration! It's maddening! I'm actually not a fan of assigning stat points and I'm hoping that it won't be applied in FFXIV.

he was referring to how its done in Guild Wars, in that game, when your in town, you can freely reset your points

[Cyprius]

Re: What, no levels?

Aren't you jumping the gun? Are you sure thats how the game is going to be or are you assuming from the limited bit of info that we've heard?

I've played MMO's were you build certain stats and it usually takes several months after release before someone figures out the "optimum" configuration for whatever class you are. Then several months after that it changes to another configuration! It's maddening! I'm actually not a fan of assigning stat points and I'm hoping that it won't be applied in FFXIV.

I'm not saying that it will be like that.. I was just coming up with an idea - A seemingly complicated one, but it's just an idea, haha.

But again, you're talking about stats. I'm talking purely of skills.

1H Sword Paths > Fire Based Skills, Water Based Skills, Ice Based Skills, Earth, Wind, Light, Dark, Lightning

(Would Lightning/Wind be the same?)

I dunno.. I just know this game needs to be released nooooooowwwwww.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: What, no levels?

Anyone else been thinking about these things:

Why give each class in the alpha a different race and different armor but the same HP & MP?
I'm thinking they are currently manually creating the characters, so they just picked race, armor, abilities, weapon, HP, and MP.

Why group classes into disciplines?
I'm hoping this means some abilities carry over between classes. Although I cannot think of abilities which would be common between classes in the disciplines of the hand and land. I'd suggest there was a common level for the classes within each discipline, but then the idea of switching between classes in the disciplines of war and disciplines of magic to heal up and buff up outside combat wouldn't make much sense. Also they said you can develop all of your classes completely, so it shouldn't impose some kind of cap similar to crafting in FFXI.

What class or discipline would you expect for the following weapons: staff, pole, wand or rod, hammer or maul, mace, club or cudgel, scythe, and katana?
It seems odd to have a whole discipline of magic with just two classes focusing on the staff and wand or rod while other disciplines are full of classes. It would make some sense to place PLD, DRK, and NIN under disciplines of magic (hammer, maul, mace, scythe, and katana). Poles, clubs, and cudgels are primitive weapons I think they could do without. However, they would work for a monk and barbarian in the disciplines of war.

How does it work that the gladiator had a ranged attack ability (shown on the action bar picture with descriptions)?
Perhaps you throw a spear. Now that would make sense. Unfortunately I don't think we saw anyone use this ability at GamesCon. Finally I might get my roman style legionnaire.

If weapons determine your class, how do shields work?
You'd expect to be able to use a shield with other 1h weapons, which makes me think that your ability to block with a shield is linked to your weapon skill level.

Would parry and dodge be actions which allow you to change from playing offensively to defensively when you take hate?
I don't recall anyone dodging or parrying in the videos from GameCon. However making these actions would fit with the idea of combat being more strategic. Think of the possibilities. Dual wielding you get two action gauges, so you could attempt to parry with both weapons.

[Lmnop]

Re: What, no levels?

The "different disciplines" bit has been bothering me. Why bother to differentiate horticulturist from gladiator as HELM dude and combat dude (whatever the 4 main groups are) when they're already differentiated by what weapon they have equipped? Is it just to tell the user the purpose more clearly? I don't want to make any assumptions, but the Leroy example on the official 14 site made it sound like Leroy was the equivalent of a level 1 in the Combat discipline but much higher level in the mage discipline.

Btw, about job changing any time being too easy. Here's what you're saying: A video game where the main character is super-humanly strong, fast, stylish (yes, superhuman style), and IS CONSTANTLY GETTING STABBED IN THE CHEST/NECK DURING CUTSCENES AND SEEN TO REGENERATE FROM IT, would be too easy? I mean, the character is practically a god. What could possibly challenge him?

I dare you to play Devil May Cry and say it was "easy".

My point, of course being, any time you make gameplay elements that are "too easy", you compensate by making your game demand more. Anything less, and it just shows you're not thinking like a game designer: you're thinking about how you'd design new FFXI content.

---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

Also: if equipping a shield in left hand and sword in right hand results in a row of abilities for shield and a row of abilities for sword...

What happens when you equip a club + sword? Seems like Malacite's kind of epic (I won't lie -- mine too).