What, no levels?

[Feba]

Re: What, no levels?

That's a pretty bad example to use for whatever point you're making. We're talking about skill paths within weapons, not the weapons themselves.

The thing is, it's really the exact same thing. Do you EVER want to wake up and say "You know, I'd like to try that, but i'd have to (lose all of the progress I'd already made irrevocably/start all over again on a new character)"?

It doesn't matter if you're choosing between taking up pikes or halberds or swords or nunchuks; blocking out options later is fundamentally anti-fun. I've played plenty of games where you had to pay exorbitant fees to job change; people hate it.

Being a jack of all trades type of thing means you're not going to get the upper end skills, however.

Like I said, this is a horrible way to make individual characters, and thanks for giving me the perfect example.

The thing is, people will go with whatever works best. Even if FFXIV is well balanced enough that ice/lightning aren't almost always the strongest, and not everything is weak to the same couple of elements, it will still eventually get to the point where some spells are more useful than others. Most people will specialize in whatever is best for killing what needs to be killed the most; or whatever poses the most challenge, or whatever else. Meripo spells show this perfectly. MAYBE you can hope that the game is balanced enough that some people will master one branch, and then mobs are tweaked so that people master another, but that's still playing into the "everyone go do the EXACT SAME THING because THERE IS ONLY ONE CORRECT CHOICE and IF YOU MAKE THE WRONG ONE IT'S HARD TO UNDO"

If you switch to a 2H Sword, you start fresh. A new skill tree, it's own.

One, that assumes that 2H swords are just as fun, useful, effective, and applicable as 1Hs. Two, that's still starting over. That's still not changing the mistakes and regrets you have with 1H.

And why not penalize players if they want to change it up? It forces you to make your choices wisely.

1- This might work at endgame, with meripo, but especially in games where specialization starts almost immediately, people aren't likely to do that well. Think about how many noobs have gone out to fight without signet, thrown away their beastmen's seals, etc. Now imagine if those noobs hadn't just lost a headstart over other new players, but had made decisions for their character which are incredible painful to reverse.

Even FFXI is better than that; the only decisions you can't reverse easily are your race (which is only really aesthetically important), your name (although it's possible to change it), and your server (also possible, just costs money). Imagine if all of those people screwed up their WHM or BLM branch, and were effectively locked out of the job. FFS, FFXI even allows you to recover important quest items now (Zilart Earrings, COP rings) and change your mind. Not painlessly, but in ways which are pretty damn fair.

The mog house is a great concept to fall back on. You can change your clothes? sure. But doing it thirty times a minute in the middle of a beach doesn't make much sense. Change your stats, job, etc? Sure; but make it require you to be home.

Because if you don't want to bear the burden of changing your skills on a developed character, then you think to yourself "Hey, I'll make a new char!". Then you pay $1 extra per month, and S-E is happy.

1- Ask any FFXI player how likely they were to keep playing if their character/account were stolen; or if their character were hijacked and all of their gear was stolen, but they could keep the character itself.
2- Ask more FFXI players
3- Those are exactly the kinds of people that would say "You know what? I can't change my skills? You know what, fuck it. I'm useless, and I can't [or if it's too painful, not willing] fix it. I'm going to play something else".


And in my experience, most FFXI players would not start over if they lost everything.

But it's better than having the cookie-cutter system like in FFXI.

I'm not suggesting a cookie-cutter system. I am suggesting one where instead of having a FEW skill choices and PENALTIES, you have total FREEDOM over your skill choices, but so many OPTIONS that nobody can ever max them out (as FF characters in other games can be maxed out). Is it mindless? Not at all. You're still investing your time, money, effort, and whatever else it takes into it. That's like saying that FFXI's job system doesn't hold weight on choice, because if you tire of one job, you can level another-- when you still lose the time you could've been putting into that other job.

The only difference is that your system CONSTRAINS people, DISCOURAGES experimentation, and PUNISHES people who do not consult websites constantly to know what is 'best'; whereas mine lets them do as they want, without any penalty except their lost time, and doesn't force people to 'GameFAQs or Die'.

---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:40 PM ----------

For hundreds of thousands of players? Hardly a practical option.

As I said, for higher-ranking characters. Not an easy feat. Out of hundreds of thousands of players, I'm talking about people who are at least on the level of relic quests. Still a handful of people, but I'm not talking about every new player starting the game having a chat with a GM.

Also for special events-- royal proclamations, for example, might have GMs delivering the lines and protecting the king. See the infamous Lord British assasxxxxtion:



GMs in FFXI already show up occasionally for holiday events. It wouldn't be that much different, just larger in scale, and with storyline relevance.

For an example of how this kind of interaction could matter, imagine players in one scenario responding with cheers, and players in another responding with boos (or even riots). In one, the king's popularity is solidified, in the other, dissent begins to grow. Or even the king sends his guards out to quiet the streets. Or some rogue adventurer kills the king and claims his throne. There are a lot of options out there.

[Cyprius]

Re: What, no levels?

The thing is, it's really the exact same thing. Do you EVER want to wake up and say "You know, I'd like to try that, but i'd have to (lose all of the progress I'd already made irrevocably/start all over again on a new character)"?

It doesn't matter if you're choosing between taking up pikes or halberds or swords or nunchuks; blocking out options later is fundamentally anti-fun. I've played plenty of games where you had to pay exorbitant fees to job change; people hate it.

You can use your argument for just about anything within the game...

I can wake up one day and say "I'm sick of Elvaan.. I want to play Taru... I can't change races?! Fuck this..." So according to you, it's anti fun starting from scratch, so I'll decide to quit. You make choices and you live with them, or pay the price if you want to change them that badly.

It's starting to come down to opinion. And we both seem pretty set on our stances. I think it's a good thing to not have a player be elite at everything. It helps incorporate other people into the game, whether it be parties, quests, guilds, whatever.

Like I said, this is a horrible way to make individual characters, and thanks for giving me the perfect example.

The thing is, people will go with whatever works best. Even if FFXIV is well balanced enough that ice/lightning aren't almost always the strongest, and not everything is weak to the same couple of elements, it will still eventually get to the point where some spells are more useful than others. Most people will specialize in whatever is best for killing what needs to be killed the most; or whatever poses the most challenge, or whatever else. Meripo spells show this perfectly. MAYBE you can hope that the game is balanced enough that some people will master one branch, and then mobs are tweaked so that people master another, but that's still playing into the "everyone go do the EXACT SAME THING because THERE IS ONLY ONE CORRECT CHOICE and IF YOU MAKE THE WRONG ONE IT'S HARD TO UNDO"

I personally wouldn't do the jack-of-all-trades thing.. But it's all in how you look at it. For example, a new char can start out putting skill points on all available skills in that specific weapon. Then as that person begins to learn the game, almost like a midway point, he or she is then forced to start branching out. So it's not like you would have to make the choice at "level 1". And it doesn't have to be just one "skill" or "element". One could master 3 or 4 trees out of maybe 7 or 8 to choose from. So there's a lot of variety.

In terms of being gimp towards certain mobs... That's going to be the case for every single person in the game. FFXIV could be vast enough where there's always a mob for your strengths. They have pointed out that soloing is a choice. So that would make sense. But it wouldn't be as fast as getting a PT and working together to kill mobs you might have trouble with because of the skill path you've chosen. And that goes back to my previous point about incorporating more people into the game. No more "Sorry, you can't join our PT because we already have a WAR". A PT can have two WARs that when they're together, cover all the bases. There has to be some kind of balance.

One, that assumes that 2H swords are just as fun, useful, effective, and applicable as 1Hs. Two, that's still starting over. That's still not changing the mistakes and regrets you have with 1H.

Again, balance. 2H swords might be better in situation X than 1H swords are. But 1H trumps 2H in situation Y. Who cares about starting all over. You had to start all over in FFXI if you wanted to change jobs, no? It keeps you involved in the game. Everybody wins, especially if you enjoy it. Why do you want to get to endgame ASAP, and seemingly stay there? I don't understand your "It's not fun" argument. Because if you're not having fun doing certain things in the game, then stop doing it.

1- This might work at endgame, with meripo, but especially in games where specialization starts almost immediately, people aren't likely to do that well. Think about how many noobs have gone out to fight without signet, thrown away their beastmen's seals, etc. Now imagine if those noobs hadn't just lost a headstart over other new players, but had made decisions for their character which are incredible painful to reverse.

This goes back to my point of not starting the specialization until some ways into the game. Branching out would begin at the Lv40 mark, as a comparison, in FFXI. By then you know the game, have a solid foundation for your character, and you can make your choices.

The "first generation" in any MMO game is almost always at a disadvantage. New things are discovered later. It's a fact of MMO life. The solution isn't to take the choices away from people. Talk about anti-fun.

1- Ask any FFXI player how likely they were to keep playing if their character/account were stolen; or if their character were hijacked and all of their gear was stolen, but they could keep the character itself.
2- Ask more FFXI players
3- Those are exactly the kinds of people that would say "You know what? I can't change my skills? You know what, fuck it. I'm useless, and I can't [or if it's too painful, not willing] fix it. I'm going to play something else".


And in my experience, most FFXI players would not start over if they lost everything.

Why are you talking about hijacked accounts? In my example, you still have everything on your first character. You can simply transfer all of your money and items to your new character.

And referring to your #3.. It didn't stop loads of PLDs from starting a new job when they realized people would prefer NIN/MNK or whatever it was (I can't remember) as a tank. If you're that much of a pussy that you're not happy with the choices you made and don't way to fix them, and instead quit, then quit. If you had fun playing the game, and feel like changing it up, then go for it. All the options are there for you.

I'm not suggesting a cookie-cutter system. I am suggesting one where instead of having a FEW skill choices and PENALTIES, you have total FREEDOM over your skill choices, but so many OPTIONS that nobody can ever max them out (as FF characters in other games can be maxed out). Is it mindless? Not at all. You're still investing your time, money, effort, and whatever else it takes into it. That's like saying that FFXI's job system doesn't hold weight on choice, because if you tire of one job, you can level another-- when you still lose the time you could've been putting into that other job.

The only difference is that your system CONSTRAINS people, DISCOURAGES experimentation, and PUNISHES people who do not consult websites constantly to know what is 'best'; whereas mine lets them do as they want, without any penalty except their lost time, and doesn't force people to 'GameFAQs or Die'.

You're confusing me here. Because I'm sure that I was the one suggesting freedom over the choices you make with no constraints. Having many options/choices again goes back to what I said. You can max out maybe 3 or 4 of 7 or 8 trees within that weapon class. The others won't be full. That is what I consider choice. Mindless is like FFXI where as a BLM, I already know at Lv7 I get this spell, then lv10 I get that spell, and so on. You're following a pre-determined path/no choice. All end game BLM's are pretty much the same, save for the equip.

As for my system constraining and punishing.. It really doesn't. You keep referring to the "BEST". There is no BEST. Think of it as Rock, Paper, Scissors. Everything has it's pro's and con's. The choices you make skilling up determine where you might quest or travel next.

[Feba]

Re: What, no levels?

I think it's a good thing to not have a player be elite at everything.

Then it doesn't come down to a difference in opinion, it comes down to a difference in literacy. I've made very clear why this wouldn't be the case.

FFXIV could be vast enough where there's always a mob for your strengths.

You don't understand how people play MMOs, do you? The same thing applies to FFXI. If you specialize in one of the less popular tiers of, say, AM, you'll have a good time with some mobs. The problem is that they are not nearly as popular. If you ask a BLM if they want to specialize in wind, when everyone is fighting stuff that's weak to Earth, they're going to say no. MMO players don't branch out and fill things out evenly, they follow the path of least resistance, and eventually beat down the natural landscape until they form roads of progress.

It keeps you involved in the game.

Right, which is why so many people talk about how much they LOVE going back to level their subjob, or another job their LS wants at 75.

I think FFXI's job system is pretty great, but applying it alongside a skilltree would just be painfully tedious.

The solution isn't to take the choices away from people.

Are you not bothering to read, or are you unable to?

Why are you talking about hijacked accounts?

It's called an example.

As in "LOOK AT THESE PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARE FORCED TO START OVER." and then "SEE? PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE BEING FORCED TO START OVER."

It didn't stop loads of PLDs from starting a new job when they realized people would prefer NIN/MNK or whatever it was (I can't remember) as a tank.

There's a big fucking difference between starting over or being reset and starting a new job in FFXI. In FFXI, there are non-experience based barriers to progress that are much easier to get over, or non-existent, the second time.

Because I'm sure that I was the one suggesting freedom over the choices you make with no constraints.

What the fuck? Isn't that like someone who wants to regulate the market saying "I'm suggesting freedom to keep your company from expanding too quickly"?

You can max out maybe 3 or 4 of 7 or 8 trees within that weapon class. The others won't be full. That is what I consider choice.

Right, the 'choice' to gimp yourself in some area or another.

You're following a pre-determined path/no choice.

Which is exactly what your system supports. Most people will only go for the most popular, most heavily recommended system; only the ones which show signs of working, only the ones their friends suggest. Because deviating from that can do serious long-term damage to your character. Compare to a system where you can actually choose what you want to learn without having to worry about your character eventually becoming crappy compared to your peers, since you don't know Ability Q, or your warrior has a high defense when everyone wants them to attack.

You keep referring to the "BEST". There is no BEST. Think of it as Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Let's put it another way. Let's say I offer you an ability which is straightforward and instantly boosts your damage by %5. I also offer you an ability which is more complicated, and it's not really clear how to use it. Most people go for the first one. To put it in FFXI terms, ask a white mage if they'd rather have free +5MND or free +5INT; no White Mage is going to branch out into seeing how effective they can nuke when it means they're permanently handicapping their MND.

This is how MMOs are played. People do not go for the more interesting choice, the one with more possibilities, when there is an easier road to take-- especially when the road less traveled is one-way only.

Maybe you weren't around for lolpup and loldrg, and lolrng, and all of the other nerfs and gimps and patches, but most people that play MMOs (at least FF) are not in the mood to screw around with strange party setups if they don't have to. Most people are not of a mind to try a BST. Most people are not going to experiment, especially if they're going to be penalized for seeing if their idea isn't feasible.

[Armando]

Re: What, no levels?

I can wake up one day and say "I'm sick of Elvaan.. I want to play Taru... I can't change races?! Fuck this..." So according to you, it's anti fun starting from scratch, so I'll decide to quit. You make choices and you live with them, or pay the price if you want to change them that badly.

And Feba is right. Doing permanent damage to your character because the costs for reverting decisions are too steep is retarded. I'm all for being able to pick out the abilities I want instead of being cast straight into a mold that has no room for variation, but players should always have the privilege of taking bad choices back.

Highly irrelevant. We're talking about gameplay. We're talking about losing progress. Cosmetics have nothing to do with either one. Apples and oranges here.

You keep referring to the "BEST". There is no BEST. Think of it as Rock, Paper, Scissors.

This is absolutely false. No game ever reaches this state of perfect balance, perfect equilibrium, in which each player, each skill combination has equal relevance. Some get close, most don't get close, but none actually attain balance. There are Bests in FFXI and there certainly will be Bests in FFXIV. If you think you can make a Crit build in XI that outperforms a Haste build you are incredibly deluded.

Goddamn it this thread has become very wall-of-text-ridden. Catching up is going to take a whiiiiiiiiiile.

[Cyprius]

Re: What, no levels?

You don't understand how people play MMOs, do you? The same thing applies to FFXI. If you specialize in one of the less popular tiers of, say, AM, you'll have a good time with some mobs. The problem is that they are not nearly as popular. If you ask a BLM if they want to specialize in wind, when everyone is fighting stuff that's weak to Earth, they're going to say no. MMO players don't branch out and fill things out evenly, they follow the path of least resistance, and eventually beat down the natural landscape until they form roads of progress.

Talk about choosing not to read. Why does there have to be only one mob with one weakness? There will be different situations for all skill sets. We need to stop comparing XIV to XI because they are not the same game, or so we're told.

You're just generalizing. Different skill sets for different mobs/quests/whatever. If people make their choices based on the popularity, that's up to them. I'm stating over and over that every single skill set has it's pros and cons. But you don't want to listen. And maybe XIV is built so that in a situation where a "Fire Mage" for example, would be best, but none is available, some other type of mage won't be so dreadfully horrible. It's just not the best you could get. Which MMO have you played wherein you had the optimal party/gear/whatever all the time.

Right, which is why so many people talk about how much they LOVE going back to level their subjob, or another job their LS wants at 75.

I think FFXI's job system is pretty great, but applying it alongside a skilltree would just be painfully tedious.

Honestly, then why do you play if you feel it's a chore? I'm talking about playing a game and you're making it seem like it's the end of the world that you have to play some more. I'm not applying FFXI's job system alongside XIV. Again, they will be two different games. It's been said in many interviews. Apparently again, you are failing to read that.

You must have had only 1 job at Lv75 in FFXI.. Because the way you talk makes it seem like getting another job to 75 would be not fun. Poor you.

Are you not bothering to read, or are you unable to?

Explain it to me, then. Because I'm obviously having such a hard time understanding.

It's called an example.

As in "LOOK AT THESE PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARE FORCED TO START OVER." and then "SEE? PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE BEING FORCED TO START OVER."

So what about the example of starting over with a new job? No one is forcing anyone to start over. If you want to buy back X amount of points to re-locate onto a different skill set, then it will cost you THIS MUCH. Pressing buttons sure is hard.

There's a big fucking difference between starting over or being reset and starting a new job in FFXI. In FFXI, there are non-experience based barriers to progress that are much easier to get over, or non-existent, the second time.

So then pay the fucking piper and re-locate your skills on your existing character. I don't see what the problem is.

What the fuck? Isn't that like someone who wants to regulate the market saying "I'm suggesting freedom to keep your company from expanding too quickly"?

What are you even talking about? I consider constraints the inability to make a choice on a skill you want. Which is exactly what it was in FFXI. Like I said, in FFXI it goes something like at Lv7 you get this skill, and at Lv10 you get that skill, and at Lv14 you get that skill. Where in my proposed system, up until about 1/3 or halfway into your characters max development in that certain weapon, you're getting all the basic skills from every tree, and after that point you must choose a specialty.

Key word is CHOOSE. The only thing you're choosing in FFXI is to go buy that spell or skill from the AH. It's pre-determined. How is that not mindless?

Right, the 'choice' to gimp yourself in some area or another.

So you say you don't want everyone to be the same, yet say something like this? Make up your mind, please. It's not like you're going to be the only one in the game who can't master every single skill tree.

Which is exactly what your system supports. Most people will only go for the most popular, most heavily recommended system; only the ones which show signs of working, only the ones their friends suggest. Because deviating from that can do serious long-term damage to your character.

How in the fuck does my system support pre-determined paths? I've made it consistantly clear that you can build your characters skill in whatever way you want to within that weapon. So if you want to specialize in 4 out of 8 skill trees in 1H sword, and specialize in the OTHER 4/8 skill trees in 2H swords, it's up to you.

Stop talking about most popular, and most recommended system. In my system, S-E builds a well balanced game that nothing as a whole has a leg up on anything else as a whole.

Compare to a system where you can actually choose what you want to learn without having to worry about your character eventually becoming crappy compared to your peers, since you don't know Ability Q, or your warrior has a high defense when everyone wants them to attack.

I don't understand how you're managing to make it seem like I'm arguing against this. I've been explaining thoroughly about how "you can actually choose what you want to learn". You're character is only going to be as crappy in certain aspects of the game as the NEXT guy, because he's "gimp" in the area in which you specialize.

I can choose my build as such; With 1H sword I'm a DD, while with a 2H sword I'm more of a tank. One last time, it's up to S-E to hopefully build a balanced game in which this works. It's no pipedream, either. It's staying along the very same lines of all the information currently known about XIV.

Let's put it another way. Let's say I offer you an ability which is straightforward and instantly boosts your damage by %5. I also offer you an ability which is more complicated, and it's not really clear how to use it. Most people go for the first one. To put it in FFXI terms, ask a white mage if they'd rather have free +5MND or free +5INT; no White Mage is going to branch out into seeing how effective they can nuke when it means they're permanently handicapping their MND.

This is how MMOs are played. People do not go for the more interesting choice, the one with more possibilities, when there is an easier road to take-- especially when the road less traveled is one-way only.

Maybe you weren't around for lolpup and loldrg, and lolrng, and all of the other nerfs and gimps and patches, but most people that play MMOs (at least FF) are not in the mood to screw around with strange party setups if they don't have to. Most people are not of a mind to try a BST. Most people are not going to experiment, especially if they're going to be penalized for seeing if their idea isn't feasible.

You're being very close minded. You're setting examples from FFXI that don't translate into what XIV is supposedly going to be. I'm not talking about stats, I'm talking about skills/spells.

Think of how XIV is going to be played. I equip a staff.. Now I start fighting with magic. I'm not a BLM or a WHM, I'm just a spellcaster. It's up to me what spells I want.

Nothing has more possibilities over something else. Seriously, how many times am I going to have to say it?

[DakAttack]

Re: What, no levels?

Speaking of skill paths, and the such, I think one great example of intention are the Rogue's talent trees in WoW. Your three choices for dispatching your opponents include specializing in either poisons, stealth, or straight-up combat. In theory, you have three awesome choices to choose from, for how you'd like to play your Rogue. There are no situations where one is better than the other, because there isn't that much variation in enemies. This is how it should be. You have options for how you'd like to play, and no choice will make you any better or worse than anybody else. The play-styles may be different between the different tallent trees, but your skills, tools, and performace are all comparable to those of the other trees.

Of course, as Feba and Armando are saying, the execution is completely different. Unless you have a formula for the perfection of skill paths, other methods should be considered.

[Kailea]

Re: What, no levels?

There is a big diffrence in starting over on a new charaacter, and starting a new job on the same character.

Also FFXIVs skills will be just as preset as FFXIs its just going to look different, and allow a little more freedom due to the way they are setting it up.

[Cyprius]

Re: What, no levels?

And Feba is right. Doing permanent damage to your character because the costs for reverting decisions are too steep is retarded. I'm all for being able to pick out the abilities I want instead of being cast straight into a mold that has no room for variation, but players should always have the privilege of taking bad choices back.

No one is doing permanent damage to their characters, since in my system I'm saying you have the privilege taking a choice back. All it might cost you is an extra day of grinding, or some amount of money. And the amount doesn't have to be crazy high... But high enough so that people won't just go day to day changing skills/abils/spells.

Highly irrelevant. We're talking about gameplay. We're talking about losing progress. Cosmetics have nothing to do with either one. Apples and oranges here.

It's still relevant because we're essentially talking about the same thing. Starting over from scratch. There can be 10 different reasons for it. Who cares?

This is absolutely false. No game ever reaches this state of perfect balance, perfect equilibrium, in which each player, each skill combination has equal relevance. Some get close, most don't get close, but none actually attain balance. There are Bests in FFXI and there certainly will be Bests in FFXIV.

Let's leave that up to S-E. They are stressing growth and choice whenever they are interviewed for this game. I'm trying to build a system which fits their thinking.

I'm not sure if you guys are mixing up what I'm trying to get across. I'm specifically talking about the skills in each weapon of the game.

Everyone is going to have the ability to equip whatever weapon they want and skill up within that tree how they want. I'm not capping the amount of weapons one person can master. They can master every single weapon in the game with one character at once for all I care. But within that weapon, they will specialize in a certain something.. Be it on the basis of elements, damage dealing, tanking, healing, whatever.

[Kailea]

Re: What, no levels?

you really think SE is going to build the perfectly balanced MMORPG of legends? lol..... that rich...

[Cyprius]

Re: What, no levels?

you really think SE is going to build the perfectly balanced MMORPG of legends? lol..... that rich...

Nothing has to be perfectly balanced. Use more WoW examples...

As a mage you could choose Fire Mage or Ice Mage. Fire was better for DD while Ice, while not doing as much dmg, was better in terms of the defensive side.

That, and the Rogue example above. Nothing is perfectly balanced in WoW, but they seem to do alright with making choices.

[Armando]

Re: What, no levels?

It's still relevant because we're essentially talking about the same thing. Starting over from scratch. There can be 10 different reasons for it. Who cares?

The reason is incredibly important. It's the whole point of the argument.

Stop and analyse it for a second.
Statement A: "Having to start over because I made the wrong skill choices and now my character is gimp sucks."
Statement B: "Yeah, well, having to start over because you don't like the race you pick sucks too."

B is a non-sequitur. It does not follow from A in any way you could conceivably argue. A sucks because not being gimp is a necessity to the player. The player's entire goal is to be as far from gimp as possible. Moreover, when A happens, it happens because the player didn't know what he was really getting himself into. Being bipolar and suddenly wanting to be an entirely different race overnight is simply capricious. It's not stopping you from having a perfectly functional character. Nobody's forcing you to start over when you don't like the race you picked. Nobody but yourself anyways. When you're gimp, you'd bet your ass other people are forcing you to reroll.

Let's leave that up to S-E. They are stressing growth and choice whenever they are interviewed for this game. I'm trying to build a system which fits their thinking.

Yeah, and they stressed choices with FFXI too. You can be a WAR with Black Magic! We all know how that turned out.

Whatever they come up with may very well be leagues better than FFXI, but it is very doubtful some alternatives will not be far more sound than others. Just like right now, in FFXI, I'd have to be pretty incompetent to merit Holy Circle's timer over Sentinel's.

[Icemage]

Re: What, no levels?

FFXI's merit point system is a shining example of how to get hardly anything right balance-wise.

Almost every merit category for every job is imbalanced in some way. You can point out at least one relatively overpowered ability or one relatively underpowered ability in every category available to every job.

For those who think Square-Enix is good at getting the balance right... I'm sorry, you're just wrong. They're not much better at it today than they were when FFXI first launched (Red Mage importers from before the North American launch can, I am sure, tell you all horror stories).

This isn't to say they won't surprise us all and do a much better job than expected, but given the huge amount of variables that coalesce into what we consider "effectiveness", it's almost impossible to get even close. If anything, Blizzard has a much better track record of getting balance right - World of Warcraft isn't really all that balanced either, but it still does a better job of it than most MMORPGs. And as a company, they get it close to right more often than just about anyone else (Starcraft, and "some" patch revisions of Diablo II come to mind - 1.03 in particular).


Icemage

[Lmnop]

Re: What, no levels?

Hi, I just wanted to re-post this because I think it's brilliant:

MMO players don't branch out and fill things out evenly, they follow the path of least resistance, and eventually beat down the natural landscape until they form roads of progress.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What, no levels?

Hi, I just wanted to re-post this because I think it's brilliant:

I seldom did the same camps twice in EQOA, we didn't stick to a familar beaten path. We actively sought out camp alternatives when a camp was taken, we respectfully kept a fair distance from other parties so everyone in a camp could benefit if there actually was space available.

And the EXP curve was much, much steeper, the death penalties much more harsh.

The attitude of MMO players has much to do with its branding. A name like Final Fantasy or Warcraft is going to bring the kids out of the woodworks. That's going to affect how the community interacts with the game. I've seen nothing like the FFXI community outside of it, though some of the WoW guild horror stories have bore a resemblance.

Seriously, FFXI players are scared to get hit period. 250 EXP loss is an eyesore to them and they'll turn down a Raise for a Raise III right in a RDM's face. Any place they can't warp to is too far for a camp. Sometimes even with a warp its still considered too far and if the mission requires thinking it was over before it started.

So I tend to think the non franchise-themed MMOs are a bit more matured in their behaviors. To say people act the same else where is to slight other communities.

Its kinda like saying DiV is like BG. Both talk about Final Fantasy XI, but the temperament is very different. EQOA's temprament consisted of "I like Everquest" or "I want to see what this is like." A very mature crowd came of it because unlike many of its detractors who never even touched, we were willing to look past graphics and found a very enjoyable game behind it. Most of the people were either old school EQ players or grown-ups that just wanted to try it.

If there were kids playing, they made it a point to act like an adult, shocking to say, but true. FFXI, that doesn't happen so much.

Look at FPS, or fighting games. Lots of them have RPG-like upgrade systems, but still manage to make it a game everyone can play. Now imagine that you don't need to worry about keeping players competitive, just making sure that the new players can still contribute something instead of being dead weight (part of this also would mean changing the party/claim system).

If you were to take Dissidia online from scratch, you would be destroyed. Much the same case with RPG-skill in FPS, though somewhat less in that case if someone has a rocket launcher bead on you. Ever played Tetra Master? Both it and Triple Triad are cut of the same cloth, but when you take the homebrewed TT game online, you find a perfectly balanced game. When you play Tetra Master online, you find a travesty of gameplay balance.

[Feba]

Re: What, no levels?

So I tend to think the non franchise-themed MMOs are a bit more matured in their behaviors.

Yes, and no.

Yes, people who are immature are more likely to be playing the big-name games.

No, people who don't play major games are just as likely to do exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm not talking about people being totally and completely inflexible, I'm talking about people finding the 'best' way to do things; the best skills, the best equipment, and the quickest way to acquire them. I have never seen an MMO where people walk around in terrible equipment and people are fine and happy with it. Finding the path of least resistance isn't just looking for an R3-- especially in a scenario where you'd get your EXP back faster by just biting the R1.

If you want to talk about how much better other communities can be, sure, you'd have a point. But it has nothing to do with the subject.

If you were to take Dissidia online from scratch, you would be destroyed.

Dissidia isn't exactly what I was talking about; I had Jump! All-Stars or whatever it's called more in mind.

But yes, it's a lot harder to balance 'new players' in a one-on-one (or even a four player deathmatch) than it is to balance an MMO. It's perfectly possible to make people who have only been playing for only a few weeks able to contribute in a meaningful way to 'endgame' activities, but not give them a chance at fighting 1-v-1 against older players. Somewhat like the way armies work in pretty much every other work of fiction; they don't all need to spend their lives training. Just a dude with a pointy stick can be incredibly effective, knowledge or no.