What, no levels?

[Kailea]

Re: What, no levels?

Did I miss something in the videos or interviews? Will there really be a huge grind related to your weapon? Hopefully it is short enough that you're only doing it to get used to the abilities associated with it.

It was not said at anytime/place, I was guessing because an MMORPG without some type of grind does not egsist. There will always be some type of grind, no matter what spin SE wants to put on it.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: What, no levels?

I completely expect grinds. I'd call Nyzul Isle a grind, but it has nothing to do with raising your level or skill.

Can you think of any good alternatives to a level or skill grind? I can think of many just looking at what has been added to FFXI, which gives me hope that the developers truly plan to take away the level and skill grinds.

Hypothetical Augmenting & Armor Upgrades System:
+ Each piece of equipment starts with a number of augment points (0/20 for example)
+ NPCs give quests to add particular augments
+ Repeating the same augment gives you a more difficult quest and an increased cost
- +0 to +1 requires 1 augment point and an easily soloed quest
- +1 to +2 requires 2 augment points and a slightly harder quest
- +2 to +3 requires 3 augment points and a slightly harder quest
- +3 to +4 requires 4 augment points and a slightly harder quest
- etc
+ Helping someone complete an augment quest somehow helps you get a similar augment
+ Armor can be upgraded through quests to have more available augment points
+ Faction is required to unlock some armors with average augment points
+ Groups are required to complete quests for above average armors
+ Alliances are required for the best armors

This still leaves room for grinding quests and faction. Something similar to a Haubergeon would take 30 quests to fully augment. Perhaps it could later be upgraded to a Hauberk once fully augmented and then Adaman Hauberk.

[Armando]

Re: What, no levels?

Again, since MMORPG combat is highly automated and thus repetitive, players need a sense of progression to keep them hooked.

Something like an extensive series of Augment quests doesn't quite do the job like finally hitting the level where you get X attack or trait does. There need to be big power "jumps" that the player is consistently looking forward to. This also serves the purpose of easing the player into his job by letting him properly learn the usage of his starting skills before being handed newer skills.

The gap between a merited and unmerited Lv.75 lacks these power jumps except when you first unlock new Group 2 abilities. If the game were to dump you at, for the purposes of this discussion, unmerited Lv.75 power, people will lose interest quickly. Likewise, this kills the thrill of seeing the progression in mob power - moving from scrubby worms and rats to big mammals, to literal monsters. The performance difference would be too narrow to really appreciate something like that.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: What, no levels?

True, big jumps and linear progression are very important to keeping a player interested, but I still feel there is a way around grinding levels and skills.

Consider the game starts by introducing you to your new home as a regular citizen. You have reached the age where it is time for you to go out on your own and take on a job. You could choose to start with gardening, fishing, or running errands for the citizens, but most will probably want to start adventuring.

Trainers would be used to help guide you on a linear path by providing a quest series which unlocks your skills and magic. The objectives (clear the sewers of rats or the fields of worms) would overlap for all jobs, so there is no reason you could not immediately group with friends. Later they would ask you to go hunt some large game. Within a couple days you could be done with getting your initial skills, spells, and gear set for a new job. (Lv75 unmerited and poorly geared equivalent)

Now you'd be able to proceed down several long quest series to unlock even more skills, magic, and armor, but each would be a separate linear progression with a big jump at the end. Next you would probably have to start grinding some sort of faction to obtain armor and weapons reserved for trusted adventures.

How long can you stay interested at Lv75 in FFXI with Nation Missions, RotZ, CoP, ToAU, WotG, Merits, Assault (Ranks & Points), Nyzul Isle, Sky, Sea, HNMs, BCNMs, Campaign (Medals & Allied Notes), etc? If that is long enough, then I fail to see the need for the level and skill grind. Simply let the developers focus on making the experience more fun by giving you story, challenges, and rewards.

-----

I just progressed though all the San'doria missions as an unmerited Lv75. It was a blast, and we never needed more than a trio. The battles were a little challenging, and the story was decent. It would have been even better if it was all geared toward a Lv75 duo or trio. Now I'm looking forward to doing all of the Bastok and Windurst missions. Then I'll go on to do RotZ, CoP, ToAU, and WotG in order of difficulty for a duo or trio. There is so much content in just these missions, and they get you to explore the world and fight a huge variety of monsters. Also 2 hour abilities help make the battles far more interesting.

These days every time I log into FFXI there seems to be something fun and relaxing to do. It is nice not having to worry about not being able to do something because I'm not Lv75. I partly kept quitting because the missions couldn't be progressed through quickly enough with limited play time and without a Lv75 job. Also too much time was spent traveling which led to missions and quests being overly boring compared to joining a party and grinding some xp. Currently things are much better since I have a Lv75 RDM/WHM for teleports, Repatriation for returning to my home nation, and Warp Cudgel for warping to my home point. I'm hopeful that travel from day one in FFXIV will be much less time consuming. Also I have many subjobs to choose from for different strategies in all the fights. I'd absolutely love it if I could choose different main jobs for some fights. Actually I already do for the lower level capped fights. This is the potential I envision for FFXIV.

FFXI post Lv75 has proved to me that big jumps aren't necessary later on. There just needs to be something fun which I know I'll be able to do when I log on. And fun for me is something I can do in 1-3 hours with some apparent progression. Even if I'm helping someone with coffer keys or a testimony, I still get a few limit points toward my next merit. Level sync is a fantastic addition for helping friends level a lower level job while you get some limit points, but waiting for that friend to get high enough level for missions is a drag.

[Kafeen]

Re: What, no levels?

Come on. They're not going to make you as effective at a job that you've barely touched as someone who's spent several hours on it.

Several hours? This is an MMO we're talking about here.

Instead of Player or Job levels, there will be weaopn levels and skill points for them... how hard is that to guess?

The grind will be there, just in a different fashion

Right. On one of the videos from Gamescon the player was scene to increase his "swordsmanship skill". It looks like its based on your skill with each weapon, similar to FFXI's weapon skill levels, just without the job level capping it.

Was anything seen of equipment from the demos? I'd be interested to see what limitations there are on equipping different items. Maybe there won't be any, I mean, its not like it takes skill to wear things noramlly, although admitidly some heavy armour could.

[Malacite]

Re: What, no levels?

The gap between a merited and unmerited Lv.75 lacks these power jumps except when you first unlock new Group 2 abilities.

While I agree with the rest of your post, this one statement is complete horseshit and you know it. The level of difference varies with each job but it's quite noticeable on many (BLM especially)

[Nuriko]

Re: What, no levels?

This just might end up being similar in ways to Saga of Ryzom, which was ALL skill-based. As a skill went higher in that game, though, it branched into different types, like from melee to 1h weapons to 1h slashing weapons to swords. In that game, your "level" for a fight was the level of the highest skill you used (or somebody in your PT used).

[Armando]

Re: What, no levels?

While I agree with the rest of your post, this one statement is complete horseshit and you know it. The level of difference varies with each job but it's quite noticeable on many (BLM especially)

Read better. There are no big power jumps in between, say, 0 sword merits and full sword merits.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: What, no levels?

I wouldn't be surprised if the developers are trying hard to figure out how to capture traditional FF RPG fans and casual players of WoW. I had four friends give FFXI a try, and only one of them even made it to Lv60 before quitting. The changes to FFXI over the years would probably have been enough to make one of my four friends stick with the game, but I expect the developers are trying to achieve more a much more significant increase in the player base.

Three of them tried WoW and still enjoy some limited playing of it. One of them was more of a Diablo player who wants to level up through soloing quests. One was a FPS PvP player who ended up enjoying arenas in WoW. Two others were huge fans of the FF RPGs. One of them made it to Lv60 and went on to enjoy WoW more due to the questing to max level followed by 5 man instances. The last one didn't even make it to Lv30 before deciding that FFXI sucked. He had completed every other FF RPG, but the lack of solo play and a continuous story killed it for him.

I twice got burned out Lv60+, and I came from a MMORPG background (Earth & Beyond). That game was very solo friendly and had trade and exploration grinds, but I survived in FFXI because partying was so interesting. I had a tank and healer, so making parties was quick and painless. However, the grind eventually just got too long and repetitive with no clear reward for completing it.

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 AM ----------

On one of the videos from Gamescon the player was scene to increase his "swordsmanship skill"

I just don't understand how you'll be able to join others with your skills far behind. Hopefully unskilled and fully skilled swordsmanship aren't a world apart but closer to the the difference between Lv75 rank A+ and rank C-.

[Armando]

Re: What, no levels?

Ok, had some time to read.

How long can you stay interested at Lv75 in FFXI with Nation Missions, RotZ, CoP, ToAU, WotG, Merits, Assault (Ranks & Points), Nyzul Isle, Sky, Sea, HNMs, BCNMs, Campaign (Medals & Allied Notes), etc? If that is long enough, then I fail to see the need for the level and skill grind. Simply let the developers focus on making the experience more fun by giving you story, challenges, and rewards.

A lot of those are irritating grinds too. Campaign gear is fine and dandy for people who turn to Campaign as their main source of EXP, but is an irritating grind for those that don't - takes about a month and a half of constant grind to be able to just hit the rank to start buying the high level Iron Ram set. HNM camping and related activities is a boring and tedious task more often than not.

Moreover, shifting all of the timesinks into similar activities as these means you need to make rejust do away wards come slower in order to keep the players hooked with the promise of rare and powerful equipment. Which really just exacerbates the problem because, Missions aside, all of the activities you mentioned are basically slow grinds that eventually yield small boosts in performance by obtaining X or Y armor piece. And that's if you can cope with the politics of drop distribution.

[Takelli]

Re: What, no levels?

Saga of Ryzom

I loved that game. Until I relized that they where going back to P2P. The skill system worked great. Just dont use you rhealing magic on some one and they are dying if its 20 levels higher than what the person is using as a weapon though lol.

It wasn't much of a grind. Progression through the game was fairly fast and fun. It wasn't too fast where as I'd log on and get like 15 lvls in one hour, but it was like 3-4 lvls an hour. It was also team based, and had a good PvP system. It was faction based like WoW, but only way to PvP is if you had your PvP flag up. There wasn't a story to keep me hooked too, but the prgression, and PvP, and how fast the game play was, kept me hooked.

But, if a game has a story line, the progression needs to be fast enough so you can do the story line as you lvl up. Not like it is in FFXI. You grind for a week or two, do a mission, grind another week, do another mission. Or power grind to 75, and do all the missions in 3 weeks.

[Icemage]

Re: What, no levels?

Well, if you look at the problem from a design standpoint you can see that:

As an MMO, it's in their best interest to keep players online doing "something". This doesn't have to be grinding, but certainly there's got to be a reason for people to stick around aside from sitting around and chatting. Without it, people would blip on and offline in tiny bite-sized chunks (think: Kingdom of Loathing) and there's no meaningful way for people to interact with one another except for the truly hardcore.

The above is really why all MMOs (and good multiplayer games) have a grind of "some" sort, because presenting unique content to fill all those hours that you need people to stay online and play costs too many man-hours to be cost effective.

FFXI's primarily tack when the game first launched was to force people to do things together; hence the party/alliance system, skillchains, etc. Where it steered wrong was things like non-instanced notorious monsters, unsustainable crafting, and a few other oddball cases of certifiable insanity - i.e. the quest for Lu Shang's Fishing Rod.

Certainly there is an appeal to rapid skill advancement when you first play - that's one of the things that FFXI does very poorly, IMO. Giving new players new toys with only moderate effort is what makes WoW's approach so much more approachable for many. S-E has tried on several occasions to morph the early bits of FFXI to more closely match this, but it still falls far short I think.

Personally, I think it would be fine to have rapid power growth for the first, oh, 40 or 50 hours of focused gameplay, and then rapidly hit the wall of diminishing returns (i.e. merits). That would make things not so intimidating for new players to get up to speed, without alienating the people who have spent a lot of time in the game.


Icemage

[Takelli]

Re: What, no levels?

FFXI's primarily tack when the game first launched was to force people to do things together; hence the party/alliance system, skillchains, etc. Where it steered wrong was things like non-instanced notorious monsters, unsustainable crafting, and a few other oddball cases of certifiable insanity - i.e. the quest for Lu Shang's Fishing Rod.

Thats the main reasonw hy I liked FFXI. It was fun having others there while you grinded. Have some one to talk to besides the people in your guild and /tells. But the thing was, is that it FORCED you to party well, it didn't force you it more like... slowed your exp when you soloed. Which wasn't all that fun. While seeing people gain a level in an hour while you gain a single lvl in three hours solo wasn't all that great. Its good that they are adding soloability, just make it so that parties will be faster to level like it is in FFXI, but don't make it so that when you solo, you lvl 3X slower.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: What, no levels?

A lot of those are irritating grinds too. Campaign gear is fine and dandy for people who turn to Campaign as their main source of EXP, but is an irritating grind for those that don't - takes about a month and a half of constant grind to be able to just hit the rank to start buying the high level Iron Ram set. HNM camping and related activities is a boring and tedious task more often than not.

Moreover, shifting all of the timesinks into similar activities as these means you need to make rejust do away wards come slower in order to keep the players hooked with the promise of rare and powerful equipment. Which really just exacerbates the problem because, Missions aside, all of the activities you mentioned are basically slow grinds that eventually yield small boosts in performance by obtaining X or Y armor piece. And that's if you can cope with the politics of drop distribution.

Right, I don't care much for the other grinds either. However, would you pursue a Burtgang and Aegis if they only required you to join a small group (duo or trio)? What if these were rewards from something similar to campaign? You might still take months to obtain them, but they would be big jumps from a Joyuese and Koenig Shield.

What has kept you interested Armando? It wasn't too long ago that you were leveling PLD and keeping me very intrigued with your experiences with sushi, DD gear, BLU SJ, and RDM SJ. I unfortunately leveled PLD before any job updates and sushi. Even RDM SJ wouldn't have been enough to keep me interested in the 60s due to the lack of auto refresh and Parade Gorget. It was just too sad to watch NIN tank out shine us so dramatically. Especially since you couldn't always find a RDM or BRD.

I suppose I should have tried to play a DD PLD/NIN with a NIN tank to change things up. Unfortunatley accuracy was crap for PLD without sushi. Even my WAR/NIN which I leveled next struggled without a Haubergeon and Viking Axe. Aggressor made a measurable difference without a BRD or SMN providing accuracy buffs, and I eventually got sick of this job combination in the 60s. The only reason I made it to Lv75 is because I could duo SAM/WAR and RDM/WHM for 7k XP an hour with an XP ring every other day. (~50k XP a week)

---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------

Its good that they are adding soloability, just make it so that parties will be faster to level like it is in FFXI, but don't make it so that when you solo, you lvl 3X slower.

Personally I think parties which aren't with friends will only become appealing after the first 40 hours similar to what Icemage is saying. I expect you'll party for things similar to Nyzul Isle and merits. The great thing about merits is that everyone benefits equally from the success of the party. This isn't so for fights where some jobs don't get any helpful reward, which is also why I think campaign is nice with rewards for all jobs. Granted many jobs don't get nearly as helpful stuff.

[Armando]

Re: What, no levels?

What has kept you interested Armando?

Mission content is mostly the only thing that has kept me playing. And by playing I mean "logging on sporadically, when I have something mission-related scheduled." Testing shit used to keep my interest back in the day too, but these days so much is already known that the only things left to test are trivial things like "I wonder how much enmity Hi-Ethers give?" or goddamned Nintendo Hard things like "I wonder what's the formula that relates Magic Accuracy to resist rate."

Well, I was gonna start a new job, and that was gonna hold my interest, but then I decided I didn't want to be switching between that other job and going back to PLD to keep up the continuous Campaign grind for Iron Ram gear. Then I started to get burned out on that grind and now I'm in a state of limbo as other games keep me busy.