New FFXIV Info!

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

Yeah a RUMOR. Until SE says anything official, I'm not buying it. Degredation sucks! Or do you enjoy the idea of getting a relic weapon only to have it eventually break on you? Or have some jack of repair it for you at some ludicrous expense?

It's too soon to make allegations about repairs and armor lol. I bet it'll just be more expensive to fix/repair rarer powerful armor and weapons. I bet once you get to 0/100 on the weapons durability you'll do minimal to no damage and need to repair to be capable of landing powerful blows etc. Yes.. just like WoW

[Feba]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

not beable to repair weapons? oh please that would be stupid of them to do that

And man, how about those Rangers. EVERY TIME THEY SHOOT ARROWS, THEY HAVE TO BUY MORE. That's so stupid! Other games let you just use the bow as a weapon and you have INFINITE ARROWS. People actually use the valuable arrows with them, if they let you equip arrows at all, because they don't run out!

SE really needs to realize that losing any of your equipment at all in any form is an incredibly stupid design choice. Take this stupid limitation off RNG now! They can't function by just using cheap arrows!

[jenova_9]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

are you being sarcastic about infinite ammo?

FFXIV would turn into Super Contra if there isn't a limited ammunition system for ranged weapons. Especially now
that melee weapons degrade over use. Ranged weapons should continue to have limited ammunition.

it was dumbed down enough FFXII choosing unlimited ammo for ranged weapons.

[Kailea]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

And man, how about those Rangers. EVERY TIME THEY SHOOT ARROWS, THEY HAVE TO BUY MORE. That's so stupid! Other games let you just use the bow as a weapon and you have INFINITE ARROWS. People actually use the valuable arrows with them, if they let you equip arrows at all, because they don't run out!

SE really needs to realize that losing any of your equipment at all in any form is an incredibly stupid design choice. Take this stupid limitation off RNG now! They can't function by just using cheap arrows!

uuummmm.....no

arrows are a consumable item, a Sword is not, a sword can be repaired, arrows, 90% of the time break when they hit their target and are not repairable for the most part.

[jenova_9]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

uuummmm.....no

arrows are a consumable item, a Sword is not, a sword can be repaired, arrows, 90% of the time break when they hit their target and are not repairable for the most part.

well I think Bows will be the weapon exception. they can't wear and tear but the limited ammo would keep it balanced.
THough what if it has a durability limit AND limited ammunition? Well that would be a nice challenging system.

It would just be hard to accept a FF mmorpg with unlimited ammo, that's just too easy. I remember I used to give each and every arrow a name. Every arrow/bullet/shuriken was meaningful.

[Armando]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

arrows are a consumable item, a Sword is not, a sword can be repaired, arrows, 90% of the time break when they hit their target and are not repairable for the most part.

Principles. Damn it.

Of course an arrow is not a sword.

This isn't real life anyways.

Fuck. I almost Haiku'd that shit.

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

Yeah having repairable armor and having infinite ammo is a dumb idea. Yeah it's not real life, but it's always nice to have some realism to a game. Even a fantasy game.

And by dumb idea.. i don't mean I dislike armor repair. it doesn't bother me to have to repair cause most MMO's I played I was used to it.

Especially if people reach an agreement about what the tank gets. Like stackables/trash which he/she can sell to a vendor and get some quick cash for repair costs.

[Feba]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

arrows are a consumable item, a Sword is not

In

FFXI

Now.

That's it. There's no reason a sword is any less 'consumable' then an arrow. Both of them will break eventually. It doesn't matter if you have to run over to enemies to retrieve your arrows or if the bow is unlimited, the same basic principle applies.

Arrows break more frequently than swords? Sure, I'll give you that. Why does that mean that one should last FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVEN WHEN IT BREAKS IT CAN ALWAYS BE REPAIRED LIKE NEW, and the other should INSTANTLY BREAK AFTER ONE USE?

If you're basing it in realism, then swords cannot be repaired back to their full strength if they're shattering. With an arrow, you could probably at least salvage the head most of the time, which is the expensive part.

I'm not saying this because I care either way about realism, or about ammunition for RNGs. I don't even care if FFXIV keeps the 'big item big damage' formula, or if it encourages people to regularly buy a more reasonable weapon. I'm illustrating the point that it could easily go either way, and there are perfectly good and valid arguments for both.

The problem is that people continue to assume that FFXIV is nothing but an upgrade to FFXI, and are still looking at every gameplay mechanic through the lens of FFXI. People see "repairing items", and think "ok, but relic weapons shouldn't break". What they should be thinking is "I wonder how that would impact relic-style-superweapons, if FFXIV has them."

If FFXIV is predominately based on your weapons, breaking them could even be a way to level up. I once played a game called Baroque. It was fundamentally a terrible game, but it had some very interesting concepts. Chief among them being that every time you finished your mission, you died. Every time you died, the world reset. Including your levels, items, and so on. Dying advanced the plot, while wiping your character. It's not hard to see FFXIV working in a similar way, if it's weapons based. Finding a way to progress players, while putting them back to the beginning.

For example, it could have a bunch of short (perhaps hours at first) grinds to the level cap, followed by some plot-guided reset, and being given a more powerful weapon. It would give the player a sense of quick progression, while also giving people a grind to the 'true' top (as FFXI has lv75 now). Perhaps it could be done in a way that would allow people to easily reach levels where they could assist on missions and end-game content effectively within a short period of time, while still giving a longer grind to really max out your character. Perhaps death would instantly reset your character to level 0, as it were; a more severe death penalty, but when it only takes a few hours to get back to the top (or less, if you are 'raised' back to a higher level) not a terrible one.

Such a system would encourage people to use all of the leveling zones in the game. It would keep parties alive at all levels, without anything like Level Sync. It would make adventure and climbing through the levels a common thing, instead of something many players avoid once they get their characters up to a certain point.

That is one of many possibilities. It is not one I advocate. But it is something that FFXIV could easily do, that I don't believe I've seen anyone consider. Perhaps breaking your weapon is a way to obtain more powerful weapons (You toss your broken ax into a lake. "Oh hi, is this your golden ax? No? Is this your silver ax? Wrong again? Is this crappy broken one yours?"). Perhaps a broken (or heavily damaged) weapon is used as evidence of monster killing; like our own Signet system. Turning in broken weapons gives you points of some kind. Perhaps some weapons would need to be broken in order to gain access to certain items-- a special jewel found in a rare sword, you must use the sword until it breaks in order to get at it.

Hell, perhaps weapons hold some magical property in Eorzea, which is only released by destruction of the weapon through honorable combat.


Again. These are not concepts I advocate. They are directions that FFXIV could go in, but which nobody considers. Everyone instantly sees a concept, applies it to FFXI, and decides from that whether they like it or not. Consider how much of a change FFX was from previous FF games. FFXI from previous FF games. FFX2. FF13 looks like it will be very different, although less so. FF8 and FF7 were also pretty radically different. There's no reason to believe that fourteen is going to just copy the good ideas from FFXI while tossing out the bad.

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

I don't think warriors would go pull arrows out of enemies to retrieve the heads or if the arrow. Arrows are simple and cheap to make so naturally, arrows should be a consumable item.

[Armando]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

I don't think warriors would go pull arrows out of enemies to retrieve the heads or if the arrow. Arrows are simple and cheap to make so naturally, arrows should be a consumable item.

If it still works you salvage it. If you don't you're wasteful. Just because arrows were relatively inexpensive that didn't mean we wouldn't fix salvageable arrows when I practiced archery.

Again, it doesn't really matter. Shit breaking or not should be a gameplay balance consideration first and foremost and a realism consideration second.

You know Chakrams? That shit doesn't come back. You know boomerangs? Those only come back when they miss. There's nothing you can throw that will actually come back when it strikes a target. Square decided they wanted some throwing weapons to be reusable, so realism had to go.

And who parries a Great Axe with a Dagger? Why do I parry equally with all weapons? More "game design over realism" at work here.

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

Of course games, just like movies, don't have 100% realism. It's a game and that's their pass at doing whatever they want. Consumable arrows or not.

[Malacite]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

Firstly, read my post again. I said what if we couldn't repair relic weapons and similar gear on that power level.


I for one would love SE endless if they made ranged weapons have unlimited ammo... You should still have different ammo types to switch between, but no more god damned running out of ammo please. This goes for Ninjutsu too. Please change Ninjutsu back to MP, or at least make essential consumables cheaper/easier to obtain. Limiting the fun you can have on a class by the size of your wallet is a shitty idea. Making a job potentially broken as hell (NIN) as an excuse to justify the costs is also a weak idea. Ninja might not have been so bad if all tools were under a single craft rather than spread out the way they were. As for shuriken, I have to seriously question what the fuck SE was thinking with the materials & DPS ratings...

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a consumables market in XIV, but I'm hoping for a better turn out than with XI. Back when ranged attacks were super-broken it was tolerable, but quite frankly despite RNG's spike damage potential, a good SAM or BLM can still match and out damage them for free. So why pay the money?

We don't know how the inventory will work in this game, only that it's going to be even more gear-intensive than XI was due (presumably) to being able to job-change just by switching your weapon. The article even states they are looking to develop methods for rapidly swapping equipment to facilitate this aspect of the game.

There are other rumors flying around too, like we won't be able to rent chocobos this time (maybe you quest for your own?) and that they will act as pack mules who will actually stand around waiting for you. I for one welcome this if it's true, as I've always hated the way they just take off when you're done. We may even see mounted combat for once, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one (firing a bow from chocoback would be sweet though)

[Kailea]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

In

FFXI

Now.

That's it. There's no reason a sword is any less 'consumable' then an arrow. Both of them will break eventually. It doesn't matter if you have to run over to enemies to retrieve your arrows or if the bow is unlimited, the same basic principle applies.

Arrows break more frequently than swords? Sure, I'll give you that. Why does that mean that one should last FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVEN WHEN IT BREAKS IT CAN ALWAYS BE REPAIRED LIKE NEW, and the other should INSTANTLY BREAK AFTER ONE USE?

If you're basing it in realism, then swords cannot be repaired back to their full strength if they're shattering. With an arrow, you could probably at least salvage the head most of the time, which is the expensive part.

I'm not saying this because I care either way about realism, or about ammunition for RNGs. I don't even care if FFXIV keeps the 'big item big damage' formula, or if it encourages people to regularly buy a more reasonable weapon. I'm illustrating the point that it could easily go either way, and there are perfectly good and valid arguments for both.

The problem is that people continue to assume that FFXIV is nothing but an upgrade to FFXI, and are still looking at every gameplay mechanic through the lens of FFXI. People see "repairing items", and think "ok, but relic weapons shouldn't break". What they should be thinking is "I wonder how that would impact relic-style-superweapons, if FFXIV has them."

If FFXIV is predominately based on your weapons, breaking them could even be a way to level up. I once played a game called Baroque. It was fundamentally a terrible game, but it had some very interesting concepts. Chief among them being that every time you finished your mission, you died. Every time you died, the world reset. Including your levels, items, and so on. Dying advanced the plot, while wiping your character. It's not hard to see FFXIV working in a similar way, if it's weapons based. Finding a way to progress players, while putting them back to the beginning.

For example, it could have a bunch of short (perhaps hours at first) grinds to the level cap, followed by some plot-guided reset, and being given a more powerful weapon. It would give the player a sense of quick progression, while also giving people a grind to the 'true' top (as FFXI has lv75 now). Perhaps it could be done in a way that would allow people to easily reach levels where they could assist on missions and end-game content effectively within a short period of time, while still giving a longer grind to really max out your character. Perhaps death would instantly reset your character to level 0, as it were; a more severe death penalty, but when it only takes a few hours to get back to the top (or less, if you are 'raised' back to a higher level) not a terrible one.

Such a system would encourage people to use all of the leveling zones in the game. It would keep parties alive at all levels, without anything like Level Sync. It would make adventure and climbing through the levels a common thing, instead of something many players avoid once they get their characters up to a certain point.

That is one of many possibilities. It is not one I advocate. But it is something that FFXIV could easily do, that I don't believe I've seen anyone consider. Perhaps breaking your weapon is a way to obtain more powerful weapons (You toss your broken ax into a lake. "Oh hi, is this your golden ax? No? Is this your silver ax? Wrong again? Is this crappy broken one yours?"). Perhaps a broken (or heavily damaged) weapon is used as evidence of monster killing; like our own Signet system. Turning in broken weapons gives you points of some kind. Perhaps some weapons would need to be broken in order to gain access to certain items-- a special jewel found in a rare sword, you must use the sword until it breaks in order to get at it.

Hell, perhaps weapons hold some magical property in Eorzea, which is only released by destruction of the weapon through honorable combat.


Again. These are not concepts I advocate. They are directions that FFXIV could go in, but which nobody considers. Everyone instantly sees a concept, applies it to FFXI, and decides from that whether they like it or not. Consider how much of a change FFX was from previous FF games. FFXI from previous FF games. FFX2. FF13 looks like it will be very different, although less so. FF8 and FF7 were also pretty radically different. There's no reason to believe that fourteen is going to just copy the good ideas from FFXI while tossing out the bad.

I dont look at FFXIV in the "FFXI lens" I look at it as if its another MMORPG joining the ranks of all the others, andin most MMORPGs arrows are consumable and other weapons and armor are repairable, it has nothing to do with FFXI

[Feba]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

As Armando has already stated the 'gameplay over reality' angle, I want to point out that arrows are not something that you'd always simply resign as lost.

Keep in mind that metals were not always a mass-produced item. People used to eat with wooden tableware for a reason. Arrowheads didn't just take time to forge and shape, the metal they were made with could be easily recycled, while not easily produced.

For older guns, it's not uncommon to hear about soldiers casting their own bullets. I'm unsure of the veracity of these claims, but I have heard that during the (American) Civil War, spare metals were melted down just so that soldiers could have ammo.

If there was a metal shortage; whether due to war-time strife, lack of modern production methods, or whatever else, you could bet that fishing your old arrows out of enemies wouldn't be uncommon. It's better to have a bloody, used missile than a shiny, nonexistent one.

Even in modern times, it would be significantly cheaper to buy the raw materials that break more frequently (presumably, the feathers and wood) and simply attach an old head each time, rather than constantly buying a new arrow whenever one broke.

And "simple to make" has nothing to do with an item's consumability. I am presently in possession of four instruments-- a digital keyboard, a recorder, a harmonica, and an electric guitar. The keyboard is probably the most complex in terms of manufacturing process (thank you computers!), but has been in a dusty basement for most of its lifespan and appears find. The recorder is little more than a tube with holes, and is thusly very simple to produce (and cheap to buy), and is probably the most durable of the bunch. The guitar has quite a bit of delicate strings, knobs, screws, bolts, and electronics inside it, was very complex to make, and easily the lowest in durability. Replacing strings on a guitar is not an uncommon event, because they break; and even though I don't know the specifics, I'm guessing even guitar string is relatively more complex than the recorder. The harmonica was actually the cheapest of the bunch, even though it is significantly more complex than the recorder. It has internal mechanisms that can be damaged through improper playing, so I would assume that it is also more complex, while more consumable.

Sometimes, simplicity just plain wins. Cheap, simple, and consumable are just not related terms.

[jenova_9]

Re: New FFXIV Info!

well at least some of us agree ranged weapons should have limited ammo unless it's a boomerang-type deal, right?

I dunno. bows/guns with infinite ammo is like Magic with infinite MP, it just makes things too simple.

People would mindlessly shoot stuff because there's no need to think about ammo supply. So it isn't just about realism,
it's also about strategy and making each shot count as something.

how will they balance limited ammo with ranged weapon wear and tear? Maybe ranged weapons don't degrade?
It would make sense since ranged weapons don't go through the impact that melee weapons go through.