What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

[Armando]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

He wants a combat experience that's less boring, in other words.

That's a bit hard since repetition inevitably makes things boring, but they can make the party experience vary more from level to level, or toss a wider variety of mobs and attacks at you, which would at least keep things relatively fresh on the grind to the level cap, even if it gets boring from repetition afterwards.

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

I kinda thought that;s what he meant. And I was going to say almost the same thing you said. Even if it's a fresh new way of combat, it'll eventually get old. honestly, it's the people in the party who make the repetitiveness go away.

[Neomage]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

Explain..

Better combat system really, like Armando said. In FFXI, every monster is nearly the exact same. T They look the same, they attack the same, and you use the same set of macros to defeat them. It would be nice if every one in a while they did something different, and if you're not paying attention, things can go bad, quickly.

[Kailea]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

Better combat system really, like Armando said. In FFXI, every monster is nearly the exact same. T They look the same, they attack the same, and you use the same set of macros to defeat them. It would be nice if every one in a while they did something different, and if you're not paying attention, things can go bad, quickly.

That can happen in FFXI, and btw... welcome to MMORPGs

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

Yep. In a sense, all games are and become repetitive. But with MMO's (a good MMO) there's so much content that when fighting the same mob gets old, you can always do something else. I wonder if there is gonna be PvP in this one? I hope it's not like Ballista and the whole petra BS. That was homo.

[Neomage]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

That can happen in FFXI

Not on EXP mobs. Or at least, not the mobs most players select for EXP. Maybe of those kinds of monsters gave more kinds of EXP, it would be interesting.

welcome to MMORPGs

I've been playing MMOs for years, I know grinds are part of them. I don't mind a grind, I just don't want mindless grinds.

Yep. In a sense, all games are and become repetitive. But with MMO's (a good MMO) there's so much content that when fighting the same mob gets old, you can always do something else. I wonder if there is gonna be PvP in this one? I hope it's not like Ballista and the whole petra BS. That was homo.

100% agreed.

[Elwynn]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

Better combat system really, like Armando said. In FFXI, every monster is nearly the exact same. T They look the same, they attack the same, and you use the same set of macros to defeat them. It would be nice if every one in a while they did something different, and if you're not paying attention, things can go bad, quickly.

...or maybe it's just because people only bother to pull the one type of monster that they can pwn (lolibri, etc.), especially at higher levels, and do their best to ignore everything else, especially if nothing else gives you drive-by aggro. (hence the "bounty of the week" suggestions)

IIt's like when I was soloing WHM at lower levels, if there were six kinds of monsters around to fight, and four of them would kill me, guess what? I only got to fight two kinds of monsters.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

Uh, the "mindless" grinds are "mindless" because people mindlessly adhere to the same mindless paths over and over. No one ever goes off the beaten path even with resources like Campsitarus out there showing us there are PLENTY of level appropriate alternatives to traditional camps.

We could do these other camps but it wouldn't be "efficient," "safe" or "yield the best EXP per hour."

Things are formulaic and mindless in FFXI because the players make it that way.

The players, not SE. Big difference. Don't point fingers at the game when you don't have the initiative to break away from the mainstream approach.

I remember when we'd do Maze of Shakarami parties, not Valkurm. When we'd do Korakolla Tunnel duos, trios and PTs - not Qufim. Altepa PTs and not GC ones. It can be done.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

Well it'd be nice if SE would recognize the way we xp now and make alternative camps to suit that. They could have done that with the northlands in WoTG, but they didn't. The best they did was birds in East Ronfaure [S], and again, that's just birds.

Yeah it's partially the players' fault but you can't really blame people for wanting to be efficient. It wouldn't kill SE to realize that.

[Neomage]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

Uh, the "mindless" grinds are "mindless" because people mindlessly adhere to the same mindless paths over and over. No one ever goes off the beaten path even with resources like Campsitarus out there showing us there are PLENTY of level appropriate alternatives to traditional camps.

We could do these other camps but it wouldn't be "efficient," "safe" or "yield the best EXP per hour."

Things are formulaic and mindless in FFXI because the players make it that way.

The players, not SE. Big difference. Don't point fingers at the game when you don't have the initiative to break away from the mainstream approach.

I remember when we'd do Maze of Shakarami parties, not Valkurm. When we'd do Korakolla Tunnel duos, trios and PTs - not Qufim. Altepa PTs and not GC ones. It can be done.

Well then, if anyone is in the same mindset with me and wants to start on the same server and form a static, I'm in. I love doing those different camps, even if they don't yield the best EXP per hour, because they're actually fun. A lot of players believe that the 'real game' only starts when you hit the max level - I'm not one of them. I believe the journey can be just as enjoyable as the destination. The only problem was in FFXI it was so hard to find people who would be willing to do this(I did find a few, and we got to EXP in fun places like Sanctuary and Castle O [S], but they never lasted)

Also, it's not completely the players. CoP could be considered a grind through the missions to get sea, but I thoroughly enjoyed it - easilly my favourite part of FFXI. I would have done it even if there wasn't a shiny ring at the end. RotZ was fun as well, though ToAU was rather boring, just a lot of CS spamming...

[Armando]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

BBQ: You have a solid point but the issue is not that one-sided. You can have your creativity when the game is balanced. It's not. Some mobs are absurdly harder than others yet don't give proportionately higher EXP. Yes, part of the problem is that players adhere too stubbornly to set paths even when the alternative being offered is practically equivalent or better - but the game is just as much to blame.

As long as a Colibri, a Rabbit, and Spider all give the same EXP, people will always pick the Colibri first, the Rabbit second, and only touch the Spiders as a last resort. It's the logical thing to do. If you want people to touch other mobs, you have to make it logical/reasonable for them to do so. E.g. "Spiders give more EXP and our party setup can deal with them, let's go to the spider camp."

EDIT: Let me rephrase this last part better. There's also the fact that you beat on all mobs more or less the same. You almost always go for the same buffs, apply the same self-buffs (there's almost never an opportunity cost for applying a buff - e.g. Berserk - so it's almost always stupid not to make full use of them 24/7) and will likely use the same WS's. The only difference is whether you need to AoE Cure, drop a Cure bomb, Dispel, or -na after a TP move. I wouldn't know how to make a better design right off the bat, but you have to admit that's also pretty dull gameplay right there.

EDIT2: There's also the fact that all mobs have precisely the same AI. All of them will use TP just as frequently, in direct proportion to how often you hit them for damage over a period of time. All of them pick their TP moves at random. Very few of them save for certain oddball expansion mobs (which are seldom EXP'd on anyways - hi2u Uragnites) have actions that aren't tied to TP. In effect a mob's threat level boils down to its ratio of inconsequential TP moves to awful TP moves. Outside of which TP move will be used each time, the mob's combat is entirely repetitive and predictable. The mob will continue the same cycle no matter what you do to it.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

Altepa PTs and not GC ones.

The last party I was in was one I personally set up in Altepa for leveling my White Mage. By the time I was done, half my Anniversary Ring was used up and I was tragically behind on my White Mage spell list. (I am only missing Banishga II at this point.)

If you want to talk about keeping an open mind when forming a party, by the time I had to leave, the RNG/NIN and DNC/NIN (both JP players) were co-pulling (not my idea, but it worked beautifully), the PUP/WAR was initial voking for the THF/NIN to SATA (!) on to the BLU/NIN tank (there were some close calls with the PUP, particularly against the Dhamels, but there were no deaths, period), and I . . . well, I was just Enfeebling, Regening, and Curing the whole thing (WHM/RDM, Erase is a beautiful thing, by the way).

It worked, and even though most would consider it a "non-optimal" setup, the party was a blast that would blow any Garlaige party out of the water. Easily the best party I had on White Mage. When you say, "it can be done," I really want to emphasize that. Not only can it be done, it's not even that difficult!

Unrelated, but for some reason my best parties always seem to involve Dancers and Puppetmasters.

Well it'd be nice if SE would recognize the way we xp now and make alternative camps to suit that. They could have done that with the northlands in WoTG, but they didn't.

Either they didn't, or nobody even bothered looking. I have actually heard some pretty good things about the Cointeaches up there, Aks.

[Vyuru]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

They could have done that with the northlands in WoTG, but they didn't. The best they did was birds in East Ronfaure [s], and again, that's just birds.

I disagree for the following reasons:

Beaucedine Glacier (S)

Cyhiraeth: Lvl 78-80 Undead spirits, 41 spawns. No TP moves, casts nasty Blm magic. Pulling with Silence is a possibility, although I haven't tried it yet. Some difficulty soloing as Blu/Nin, but a party of 6 would rip through them. If you can silence them they would be laughably easy, even without silence they should be easy. The camp I use is fairly easy to get to, and could support up to 3 parties easily, perhaps more.

Gargouille: Lvl 77-80 23 spawns. View them as slightly beefed up imps. Serious pains in the ass when flying with very very high evasion when airborne, on the ground however nice and squishy. There are a couple of different ways I've heard that you can get them to land however. One is to run under them (I don't believe this myself) The other is that if you pull one and get far enough ahead of it, it will land and chase you on foot. I saw this quite a bit while trying to learn Triumphant Roar. The other is that if you damage it while it's a bit out, it will land. I also saw this while trying to learn Triumphant Roar, one of the Blu would use Cannonball as soon as the Gargouille came into range, and it would stop for a few seconds, and land. Some annoying TP moves, but nothing serious. I've had more difficulty with Mamool TP moves to be frank. Excellent exp obtained in a party of 6 while learning Triumphant Roar, and easily tanked by a Pld. Myself personally I believe a mixture of the distance and damage. It always landed when the puller got far enough ahead that you'd think it may despawn, and in fact it would sit there for about 3-5 seconds, making you really think it was going to despawn, but it's almost like it landed to be able to track by scent or something like that. I also believe in the deal damage to it to make it land thing because I saw a number of Cannonballs that seemed to make it land. You can make Euvhi and the Hpemde close by damaging them, making me think that the walking state of Gargouille may be considered their "closed" state, or the one they revert to after taking enough damage. I know of one good camp that is also fairly easy to get to that would support one party, maybe two if you fought imps as well, but beyond that I don't know. People are making a fuss over their TP moves, and they are really not that bad.

Glacial Imps: Lvl 79-80 Imps, need I say more? 17 spawns and fairly spread out around the map in groups of 4-5 imps it seems, so I'd use them more for chain fillers than anything else.

Will people go to these camps? I don't think so myself, it's not the "norm", but crap, I feel like a little kid in Bibiki Bay before ToAU came out. These are fabulous camps that I wouldn't hesitate suggesting to any LS parties. I would say there is the possibility of danger until you get used to the mobs, camps, and zones, but I don't think it's that serious.

I have not tried anything in Xarcabard (S) yet, so no comment on that area.

[Takelli]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

Unrelated, but for some reason my best parties always seem to involve Dancers and Puppetmasters.

Dancers are one of the greatest jobs that SE gave to FFXI, and when subbed onto a Pup that has a healing Automation... They are THE best job for healing hands down!

One party I was in was 2 Blms, Drk, Pld, Pup/Dnc (With healing Automation), and Rng. And, we where syncing to lvl 40.

The pup had a 7 tick refresh on the automation, and he had drain samba up at all times. He was full time healing, and the Pld never dropped below 75% Mp. The only time that the Blms actually needed to heal was when the pup went AFK for a few mins. Other than that. The Pup was full time healing with Drain Samba, Waltzes, and Cures from the automation.

I would LOVE to have a Party against blunt weak mobs and have 2 pups/dnc main healing. We'd be an all melee party, and no one would need to rest at all.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What you don't want to see in FFXIV...

People did test those camps (at least as far as I read) and that the xp/hr wasn't that great, certainly not comparable to current merit camps. So they're (again) viable for decent xp, but not great. 12-15k/hr just isn't good enough for most.