Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

[Balfree]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I wouldnt say a hat but something like an arm-band or a shoulder pad, a belt, or a small cape... that is actually an idea that i'd LOVE to see done, and not just the same for everyone, one LS could use the cape, another could use the band.

[Feba]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I am left for two weeks as the sanctioned "leader", but only as a sack. And they're all looking to me to do something about it.

yeah, this is something I don't remember ever finding a suitable workaround for in any guild system; dealing with a leader's absence. If I remember right, EVE used permissions for everything, so you could set up rather separate 'roles' for everyone, like you would on a multiuser computer system. Give people access to what they need. But I don't remember EVE corps having a method to cope with a leader that simply isn't around, although they could have something. Having to disband and reform a group because a leader up and stopped playing, for whatever reason (including their death), is not good, because someone almost always gets lost in the transition. FFXI's nontransferable shells make this even worse.

There need to be better systems in place, generally speaking, to take over in a leader's absence. Heck, even here on FFXIO, PiNG is almost completely absent, and even though Taskmage is the de facto boss, he doesn't have the authority to deal with some things-- which means delays in dealing with problems.

And there's just no easy solution to these problems-- you can put them to a vote of lower leaders to give them the authority to deal with it, but then what happens if the leader comes back and kicks out everyone who he feels decided 'wrong'? What if a group of people use it to usurp power-- what if they divide the group instead of using it to hold it together? You could require the owner to maintain some degree of activity, but what if he's on vacation? What if he's studying for finals, but everyone knows how to contact him if there are any problems to be dealt with?

Naturally, most people won't want to give up power once they have it, either. Even if you can transfer power, it's very hard to just go up to the leader and say "Hey, you're really not meeting our needs anymore. We appreciate all of the hard work and sacrifice, but we feel it would be best if you stepped aside and let someone else take care of it.". Of course, the people most likely to be making comments like this are also those most likely to be filling the power vacuum they leave, which brings greed into it. If a leader feels like someone wants power for themselves, why wouldn't they naturally try to keep that power?

[Karinya]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

See, but that's the thing - event Linkshells respect your life. HNMLSes are essentially no different from the "one guild only" mentality. The all-encompassing shell does seek to suck your life away.

In some games, every guild is the only guild you can ever have (until you leave it). I think that encourages totalitarian mentalities more than otherwise.

SE needs to go somewhere in the middle. A guild system that encourages some level of commitment and internalized DKP system, but with the freedom to have more than one (without consuming personal inventory space preferably). There also need to be better management tools, the ability to pass leadership and something more to the role of officers than "guy who recruits new people."

I don't think that would actually help. An active, involved leadership can develop and maintain its own point system and decide what role officers will play (whether they have sacks or not).

I agree on being able to pass on the shell leadership without disbanding the shell, but for the rest, shells able to make their own rules are more flexible than one-size-fits-all rules imposed by the game system that shells would have to work within or work around.

Ultimately, a shell is what the shellholder makes of it, and other players will stay or leave depending on whether it suits their needs. I think any amount of built-in structure will only get in the way of some shells, and be ignored by others. Even the devs can't make a competent leadership.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I don't think that would actually help. An active, involved leadership can develop and maintain its own point system and decide what role officers will play (whether they have sacks or not).

I don't agree that point systems are perfectly fine left in the hands of players.

How many times have you tracked your points and the points your leaders gave you just don't add up?
How many times have points magically appeared for sacks and leaders that didn't earn them.
How many times have linkshells conveniently dropped a selection of their members and merged with another shell just so the sacks and leaders could further their own agendas?

There's no drama with Assault Points, Imperial Standing or Allied Notes. Leaving numbers in the hands of players enables abuse. A guild that kicks members for getting the better of the leaders in points would still happen in a system-driven DKP, but players could quickly tell who was lying and that guild would lose community reputation for its abuse. Leaving it in the hands of players and rules subject to change on a whim its makes it much more difficult to see who's playing who. But a calculator, cold as it may be, cannot lie.

No system is going to be 100% perfect, but a system can be created in FFXIV there's less abuse.

Part of reducing the abuse will have to come from community climate, though. I'm hoping that with FFXIV, much of the mindless adherence to the JP style of play is eschewed in favor or something a little more progressive and western. "Need before greed" - for one - needs a major comeback. We'll be on equal footing this time to determine the how the community is shaped.

[Feba]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

But BBQ, if you're acknowledging all of these faults that come with any group of humans, why would you want to link points to the LS system?

Just have points linked to the events/encounters you go to. Why should a linkshell have anything to do with it, if you're trying to stamp out corruption?

I don't think that LS, at least as they're used in FFXI, should have an internal points system if it's going to be built into the game. And lots of LS that like their points systems would lose them if SE moved in on the field.

Some games have Guild Points, which generally go towards upgrading the guild, and not for other things, but such a system could be easily adapted to show contributions to the group.

For example:

* Putting items/money into the guild coffers could give you some points value, as determined by the leadership. Taking items/money out would detract.

[an example of this, I've been out all day mining. I bring in the raw material, and leave it in the guild's coffers. I gain 2000 points for the value of the item; whether set by the Market, or by the guild leadership (for example, they could increase the points values on items the guild badly needs, but which are too rare to just buy). Guild member B pulls out the materials I put in a few hours later, and is deducted by 2000 points. After he synths them into more valuable items, he puts them back in and gets 3000 points; for a net gain of 1000 points.]

* Guild leadership could assign 'credit' ratings. People who have earned the trust of the guild leadership could have an unlimited right to check out items; newcomers could have a very low amount of leeway, or none at all. You could even be required to keep your points in the positive, like a checking account.
* Guild members could transfer points to each other in exchange for favors-- for example, you help me with a quest, I give you some of my points. You let me have a drop I want, I give you points..
* Guild leaders could add and remove points from members, as reward, punishment, or in exchange for services (for example, if you have the entire guild work for an hour just for you, like some parts of relic weapon quests, or paying for drops)

Such a system would keep leadership corruption contained within the guild; it wouldn't really effect you. If you want to be really thorough, such a system could even require the guild to pay you back in gold to make up for the points you have in it if they want to kick you out. That way you can't get someone to contribute a lot of time, items, effort, money, etc. and then kick them out before they get the Big Prize they were working for. That could also be applied in reverse, requiring you to pay a guild to leave it.

Or rather, being forced to pay back people after they leave, so you aren't stuck together. The money could simply be deducted from whatever they take in until it's paid off; like some real life debts.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

Why would I want to link points to a guild system?

Probably because one of FFXI's biggest failures is that the gameplay design is so flexible that unless you're on a densely populated server, reputation means absolutely nothing so long as you have the "right" jobs.

While we hear time and again that all servers are "the same," they really aren't. They're only the same in the sense that starter cities are empty and people tend to favor the same EXP areas as anywhere else. But job availablity vs server population is a completely different matter.

For one, the Japanese are far more shrewd on an highly populated server. That BRD you had on a low pop server that every JP would invite? It doesn't mean shit when the population of japanese goes up much higher than what you had before. By the same token, your BRD means less to NA and EU shells, too. And if you develop a bad reputation on Odin or Bahamut you can color your endgame days over. Your jobs don't mean anything over there because they have more than enough people to replace the bad player.

But a lower pop server like Titan or Pandy the assholes tend to win out. You need that BRD. JPs are more likely to take what they can get rather than shun anyone that doesn't know japanese. Your endgame shells are more than likely going to take very sleazy player they can because their jobs retain value even if their reputations aren't sound.

In FFXIV, reputation really needs to mean something. I think in many ways that the flexibility of FFXI's job system has just as many downsides as upsides. I'd like to see something a bit more restricting this time around.

Trust me, I've seen the totalitarian bullshit that goes down in other MMOs. Its because the people who made the games did nothing that kept players in check. They didn't factor in the psychological aspects of the game.

In some ways, I already see FFXIV attacking the psychological elements of an MMO game. Removing levels of experience removes a bit of conventional chest-thumping, don't you think? I'm sure people will eventually find some means to distinguish their characters, but they won't be able to say "I have eight level 75 jobs with full merits." Many of us have come to learn that statement doesn't mean they're not complete noobs, but plenty of people continue to think it does mean some level of credibility.

They did it with Dynamis, Limbus and other endgame functions in FFXI, forcing cool-down times or trade-offs. Surely this was also to ensure other people got to do the content, but FFXIV's stuff is probably going to see a lot more instancing. Even so, I hope they consider a cool-down timer anyway just to say, "Hey, go have a life for a bit, mmkay?"

Everything the STF did was pretty much psychological warfare when it comes to RMT, Sage Sundi was pretty much upfront about that. While the gilseller is resilient, the changes did dampen RMT activity quite dramatically. No doubt many of these kinds of measures will be in-place for FFXIV from day one.

Anyway, I want to see some of the "enablers" in the game design done away with. Point systems in the hands of players chief among them. Other MMOs have done it, done it well and it can be done in FFXIV. My problem with point systems in the hands of players is that when that happened, FFXI became too much like the real life I already knew. Totally corporate approaches to endgame and an emphasis on efficiency over fun. Officers of endgame shells tended to be as full of shit as the management at the jobs I've had do. Leave it 100% in the hands of players and that's how it ends up.

[Feba]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I don't think going without levels means you lose an easy way for players to distinguish themselves. People in EVE talk about their skillpoints, which is basically just a sort of variable time clock (based on a few 'learning' stats that change how quickly you learn skills, and how good you are about instantly switching to new skills). It doesn't matter if someone invested millions of skill points in crafting and mining, and someone else put all of theirs into combat; people will find a way to talk about their superiority. If nothing else, they'll fall back on "I have #G!", or just "I've been playing since 20XX!"

And I think you misunderstood me. I'm not against integrating point control into the game, I just don't see why you want it to be tied to the guild system instead of to the player themselves. You say you want to get the system out of where players can fuck with it, but then tie it back into the LS system people fuck up so much. So basically, you could screw with someone's points, but you'd basically have to kick them out of the shell. If you're going to go that far, why even leave an LS with the ability to still be dicks to someone at all? Why is it worse for an LS that screws you over if they can still keep you than if an LS can screw you over if they have to dump you?

[Karinya]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

I don't agree that point systems are perfectly fine left in the hands of players.

How many times have you tracked your points and the points your leaders gave you just don't add up?
How many times have points magically appeared for sacks and leaders that didn't earn them.
How many times have linkshells conveniently dropped a selection of their members and merged with another shell just so the sacks and leaders could further their own agendas?

Zero times. And I wouldn't remain in a linkshell where I did see those things, nor would I expect any other player to remain in a linkshell where they would happen. Dishonest leadership is, and should be, a linkshell-destroying event. (For one thing, all those points you think you have are worth precisely zilch if the leaders are crooked.) *Maybe* some of the other players would trust each other enough to form a new shell without the old "leaders" (i.e. scammers) and their cronies. More likely they'd drift into a variety of other shells.

What the hell kind of player culture do you have on your server, anyway?

None of those things would be cured by guild point systems, since the leaders would still be the ones giving and reducing points. They might be cured by moving *everything* to systems like Assault Points or therion ichor, rather than actual drops that people can make up rules about who is allowed to lot and who is expected to pass, but I have a cynical faith in the ingenuity of corrupt assholes. They would find a new way to rip people off. The dishonesty of players can only be blocked by other players, and when the leader is dishonest, the only leverage the other players have is to leave the shell.

There's no drama with Assault Points, Imperial Standing or Allied Notes. Leaving numbers in the hands of players enables abuse. A guild that kicks members for getting the better of the leaders in points would still happen in a system-driven DKP, but players could quickly tell who was lying and that guild would lose community reputation for its abuse. Leaving it in the hands of players and rules subject to change on a whim its makes it much more difficult to see who's playing who. But a calculator, cold as it may be, cannot lie.

Keeping the records public makes them subject to player scrutiny and discussion. If your shell enables corruption by allowing secret recordkeeping, well, it's your decision to put that kind of unqualified trust in the recordkeeper. I hope it doesn't bite you in the ass, I really do, but I think it's a foolish decision. Secrecy breeds corruption, and it works the same way in LS politics as it does in RL politics. My Dynamis LS keeps a regularly updated attendance and points spreadsheet posted in the member forums where anyone can look at it and demand explanations if they think it's necessary. Nobody has dared try to screw with it with the whole LS (potentially) watching, or maybe we've just been lucky to have honest officers.

But I don't think it's really luck. People taking the shape of their incentives works on social structures too. Dishonest people are drawn to opportunities to get away with dishonesty. When they have to conduct their business with everyone watching, they'll do it in a way that doesn't piss everyone off - or they'll be caught and be gone, before they can do too much damage.

Be careful what kind of linkshells you invest your time in.

"Need before greed" - for one - needs a major comeback. We'll be on equal footing this time to determine the how the community is shaped.

Right, because everyone can totally agree on what need is. It's a nifty sounding slogan, but in practice it's about as useful as saying "We'll just do what's fair.", and for the same reason - vague terms covering up the actual issues.

One of FFXI's strengths is that the player who is there on BRD can still get drops for his MNK - you can't do that in EQ or WoW, and a lot of people (I have heard) get horribly screwed over by that when they try to work on an alt of a less-wanted class but keep getting asked to come as something else. (I think this is the flexibility you were asking to have reduced. IMO, if you want less flexibility, you know where to find it. Hopefully not FFXIV.) Conversely, people sometimes get pissy when the player who is there on BRD wants drops for his MNK - but he's only there on BRD in the first place in order to contribute more to the run. If you don't let him get drops he wants, why is he in the shell at all? - and soon enough, he won't be.

It's true, and often argued by people in the MNK-only player's position, that if you expect the player who has BRD to be asked to come as BRD again next run, MNK gear in his hands doesn't help him contribute more to next run than he did to this run. But he'll still be contributing more to next run than the player who only has MNK regardless of which one gets the drop now - because, by hypothesis, the run is short on BRDs and another BRD is more useful than another MNK, or why was he asked to come as BRD in the first place? If he's willing to level and bring BRD when that helps the shell more, he should be rewarded for that, not punished. Because players respond to their incentives, and if you put people into a box when they have healing/support/other high-demand jobs available, then they won't make them available if they don't want to go into that box.

One person in my Dynamis linkshell, who I won't name, is well-known in the shell for collecting drops just to fill his mog house. But anyone who levels a job to 55 will automatically beat his level 50 lootwhoring, because that's what the LS rules dictate (for pieces that all the 70+, 65+, and 60+ players of that job already have or don't want to lot on). Effectively this already *is* need before greed (assuming you agree he doesn't *need* a better-equipped mannequin), although if he actually leveled all those jobs it might be another matter. (He could still only comment one at a time and win one piece per run like everybody else, though, no matter how many years he's been with the shell.)

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

More people DO need to adopt "need before greed". I've been playing endgame a long damn time and I've seen it deteriorate. You have players that have been in an ls or been doing endgame a long time and have been rewarded many pieces of gear. Sometimes their main job (job the enjoy playing the most) is nearly or fully outfitted and they want gear for other jobs. Along comes another player who is still outfitting his main job, which happens to be the job the older players wants equips for now, and he can't get any damn equips because the older player wants them more. The ls sees the older player as more beneficial to the shell so they dole the crap out to him and stiff another player. This builds a lot of animosity in ls's and I've seen it happen over and over and over.

Older players have usually been rewarded for their accomplishments already. At some point, they need to step aside and let other players get decent gear. The entire ls benefits when ALL of its players are equipped well and not a select portion. Yes, there are exceptions because you can't be constantly rewarding someone for spotty attendance or exping during events, etc. But hopefully those are a small minority of the ls, if not then start looking for a new one! LOL

I passed on a lot of gear in my day because what I had was decent and there were people that needed it more than I did. THIS needs to be more of the norm. Killing an NM is an accomplishment and gear drops are just the icing on that freshly baked cake. Eventually you'll get a reward but it doesn't have to be at the expense of someone else. Equip people that NEED it first. You don't NEED it if you have decent gear already and another dedicated ls member doesn't. Thats greed.

[Kailea]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

More people DO need to adopt "need before greed". I've been playing endgame a long damn time and I've seen it deteriorate. You have players that have been in an ls or been doing endgame a long time and have been rewarded many pieces of gear. Sometimes their main job (job the enjoy playing the most) is nearly or fully outfitted and they want gear for other jobs. Along comes another player who is still outfitting his main job, which happens to be the job the older players wants equips for now, and he can't get any damn equips because the older player wants them more. The ls sees the older player as more beneficial to the shell so they dole the crap out to him and stiff another player. This builds a lot of animosity in ls's and I've seen it happen over and over and over.

Older players have usually been rewarded for their accomplishments already. At some point, they need to step aside and let other players get decent gear. The entire ls benefits when ALL of its players are equipped well and not a select portion. Yes, there are exceptions because you can't be constantly rewarding someone for spotty attendance or exping during events, etc. But hopefully those are a small minority of the ls, if not then start looking for a new one! LOL

I passed on a lot of gear in my day because what I had was decent and there were people that needed it more than I did. THIS needs to be more of the norm. Killing an NM is an accomplishment and gear drops are just the icing on that freshly baked cake. Eventually you'll get a reward but it doesn't have to be at the expense of someone else. Equip people that NEED it first. You don't NEED it if you have decent gear already and another dedicated ls member doesn't. Thats greed.

I agree with ya..... I was passed over for Jouse (how ever its spell) many times for people that "needed it" RDM, and WARs, THFs mostly..... yet I am a DNC who is also leveling PLD, sitting here, one who could truly use the sword to its fullest potential... and I get goose egg ;p

There has been many times in other places, where I have said "na you take it, I can get it later" because its something that I really did not HAVE to have, even though I wanted it.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

Ya when my kids were young I used to pound into them what a NEED was and what a WANT was. At times, I didn't think they'd ever get it. Then recently my son was talking about something he was mooning over and then turned to me and said "But I don't NEED it, I just WANT it." Really made me happy that it did sink in to at least one brain out of the two. LOL

And yes, its unfortunate that people do that with the Joyeuse. I never did get one myself because when we went for one I felt that there were others that could put it to more use than me. While I wanted one badly, I didn't really need one (for my rdms) so I'd pass to plds with no regrets. One time, I decided to pass for a pld that was in our pt and needed it and then another rdm decided he needed it more and out lotted the pld. I went from 0 to PISSED in .02 seconds! I have very little respect for people like that.

[Icemage]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

Regarding the whole "need" vs "greed" thing, the point to keep in mind is that 80% of the gear you get at endgame doesn't really do more than look pretty, another 15% barely impacts your performance at all, which leaves just the very rare pieces of gear that's actually worth going after and will considerably improve your capabilities.

A mistake I see a lot is that people go out of their way to want the pretty baubles when they should really be focusing their attention on the small handful of items that will meaningfully complement their play style on a specific job.

You know you're in a good environment when something rare but mediocre drops and everyone plays Hot Potato racing to be the first to say "Not It!" because the gear isn't really very useful. In all of the LS I've seen that didn't have good attitudes, people would get all bent out of shape over lame drops (most Abjurations, the vast majority of relic armors, most HNM drops, etc.).

EDIT: TGM's example above about Joyeuse is an excellent showcase for this. RDMs do not need Joyeuse. I'm sorry, they just don't. I have one. They're useful, no doubt, but not as useful as they are to a Paladin. RDM should never, ever lot on Joyeuse when there's a Paladin around who needs it still. :/


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

'Need' based system seems prone to manipulation; it's too easy for a leader to say "But X is now leveling/already has Y job and will be using this Z gear" when X is the leader's favorite. To reduce the chance that, a whole bunch of detailed rules on when/how/why someone can lot what would have to be written--and leaders will reserve the right to change those rules on the spot anyway because they're so complicated and cumbersome.

Straight point system is just better for anything large scale; either use bidding to determine point cost or use percentage reduction for items, as long as it works out so people with more points have to use more points for items, newcomers can catch up to old guards. That way, the worst can happen is that the 'need' person would get an item slightly after the 'want' person--but both were proven contributors to the LS--either the 'want' person works harder, or have longer history, that's all.

Aside from the basic "Can you equip this (soon)?" question, it seems a bit subjective to categorize 'need' vs. 'want'. This is a game, after all, and nothing is truly needed besides fun.

* * *

A player who solos melee style a lot on RDM will benefit far more than that other player who doesn't have a Brave Blade, hates PLD, and only brings PLD only if he's the only person available for PLD.

But, whether it's the RDM or the PLD or the WAR or the DNC, if an LS member gets the ToD and I can make the spawn window, I'd gladly go along to help. Who ever gets the ToD (and can use the sword) deserves it, I say, because he has showed me he wants it bad enough to get the ToD.

[Icemage]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

^

The best endgame linkshells run on an honor system and abide by it, at least for the important gears (and as I mentioned above, no one in a good endgame LS should be sweating the small stuff, whether they get lots of it or very little).

Points systems are just unnecessary bookkeeping and rarely are run fairly in any case; if people want to be jerks, they're going to be jerks no matter what method is used to decide who gets what. The real trick is to get a group of people who aren't always looking out for only themselves, and who recognize when they're at a point where they don't really need every single piece of gear that drops that they "could" use.


Icemage

[Elwynn]

Re: Final Fantasy XIV Linkshell Recruiting

Straight point system is just better for anything large scale; either use bidding to determine point cost or use percentage reduction for items, as long as it works out so people with more points have to use more points for items, newcomers can catch up to old guards. That way, the worst can happen is that the 'need' person would get an item slightly after the 'want' person--but both were proven contributors to the LS--either the 'want' person works harder, or have longer history, that's all.

All a point system really does is force each individual to quantify his own "need". Too much greed, and you have no points left. (Of course with a bad LS, too much greed by a toadie, and suddenly the rules start to change.)