FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

The answer to getting all the jobs back in parties might be easier than you think: Magic Bursts!

Making Magic Bursts provide an xp bonus and a time extension for the chain could go a long way to bringing back the option of a balanced party.

Balanced Party - one where most members have a different role

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Does this do enough to make SCH, SMN, and BLM attractive?

Does this make a dedicated tank and hate management more attractive?

Will the enemies last long enough for a skillchain and magic burst?

Should this only occur under Signet or should it also work under Sanction and Sigil?

Should there be a level restriction to the xp bonus or time extension? Dark and Light Skillchains only?

Is it bad if this works with WAR/NINx4, RDM, and WHM?

Do we need higher level enemies?

-------

Typical Melee Burn Enemy:
Greater Colibri - Lv81-82 - Bhaflau Thickets

Typical Magic Burn Enemy:
Ebony Pudding - Lv79-81 - Mount Zhayolm

Examples of Balanced Party Enemies:
Darksteel Golems - Lv80-82 - Ro'Maeve
Abraxas - Lv80-83 - Lufaise Meadows
Decorative Weapons - Lv79-81 - The Shrine of Ru'Avitau
Aura Weapons - Lv80-82 - The Shrine of Ru'Avitau
Aura Statue - Lv79-84 - The Shrine of Ru'Avitau

I'm not advocating we do away with burns. They are helpful when you have a lack of the right jobs.

[DakAttack]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

The only thing my glasses are tinted with are the BURNING LIGHT OF TRUTH. But go ahead and pretend I'm wrong without even trying to say why. The playerbase is the same now as it's always been. And that's the truth.

Didn't say you were wrong. Do you think you could be a bit more concise so I don't have to pick through long posts?

How was pressing a button at the right time in any way skillful? It was repetitive and slow and only effective with a specific party set up that greatly limited your options and abilities to get past one of the most boring aspects of this game.

Does the specific party set-up you're referring to include a healer, nuker, tank, and two melee? Because, that's rather nonspecific. Believe it or not, Distortion wasn't always used, though when it was it's because Blizzard was always the strongest spell among the set.

SC pts promoted overhunting, which was rampant back in the day and was one of the worst ways to get EXP.

Uh? How do slower battles with IT enemies promote over-hunting when there should be more time between pulls for the enemies to respawn?

And since you didn't get it, things like job exclusion are important because it was FAR worse back in the SC+MB days because you needed specific jobs. Today, since SC element isn't as needed, you can open the party up to more DDs.

That's about as true now as it was back during loldrg.

And old school TP burns are important because back then, they were the way the best of the best got their Exp. The good players wouldn't sit there SC+MBing IT+ mobs, they'd head to sky and tear through weapons, go to KRT and crush bones, grab some Blms and blow the hell out of things in one shot. The Burn party style was pioneered by players who saw SC+MB set ups as ineffective and found a better way to gain exp. Easier, faster, more efficient and FAR more engaging then sitting there whacking the same mob for three minutes at a time for 200-250 Exp a kill. And if the *best* players felt it was better, who are we to blame their new technique on the ill-perceived decline of "skill" so many people bitch about today?

What a laugh. The BEST players simply exploited game mechanics to earn easy EXP. It wasn't always profitable, and it sure it as hell wasn't always easy. You're probably asking yourself why it isn't always easy to earn easy EXP. Well, because, they weren't the best by any definition.

[Maju]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

No you won't. People have always sucked in parties. Even long before ToAU came out the hardest part about leveling was finding competent players to party with to make use of simple strategies like SC+MB.

Perhaps on your server. I quite clearly remember a very high competence rate in my parties in the 50-75 range. Of course there were always the bad apples who somehow managed to avoid being shunned by the entire server, but in general bad people did not make it past L60 for various reasons.

Bull. Crap. In the old days players sucked just as much as they do now. People have always had gimp gear, no food and abused Power levelers. Always.

Bull. Crap. Bad gear and lack of food always existed but in somewhat lesser quantities, especially at high levels. Let me clarify: Back in the old days I'd expect your average Rank 2 L25 player to be a highly potential stinker, but if they were a L75 on an alt or L50+, they'd almost always be awesome, which so obviously was not the case after my return. I met several Rank 10s on alts wearing their race's starting equipment and not bringing any food well into their 20s.

As for PLs, I am absolutely 100% positive that I saw zero PLs during the two years or so I first played the game. ZERO. When I returned, it was like every single party below L40 had one. It was also very clear that people failed to learn the game because of them as past L40 you'd suddenly have this massive amount of players who simply could not stay alive.

What a laugh. The BEST players simply exploited game mechanics to earn easy EXP. It wasn't always profitable, and it sure it as hell wasn't always easy. You're probably asking yourself why it isn't always easy to earn easy EXP. Well, because, they weren't the best by any definition.

Yes. Arrow burn, mana burn and TP burn were results of SE's design failures. These parties were not common back then and for the majority of the population might as well not have existed at all. Arrow burn was beheaded but for some reason the other broken forms of exping were not. Perhaps SE was just too slow to respond and by the time they were ready to do something about it, it was too wide spread and the moaning would have been too much.

Also, Ziero, you keep saying exping is terrible. What do you enjoy in FFXI? Please tell me it's the story elements, or something, because if you say "end game", I can only recommend you to move to another game because the end game in FFXI sucks and has always sucked. You'll find much more enjoyment in WoW.

[Takelli]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

Bull. Crap. Bad gear and lack of food always existed but in somewhat lesser quantities, especially at high levels. Let me clarify: Back in the old days I'd expect your average Rank 2 L25 player to be a highly potential stinker, but if they were a L75 on an alt or L50+, they'd almost always be awesome, which so obviously was not the case after my return. I met several Rank 10s on alts wearing their race's starting equipment and not bringing any food well into their 20s.

As for PLs, I am absolutely 100% positive that I saw zero PLs during the two years or so I first played the game. ZERO. When I returned, it was like every single party below L40 had one. It was also very clear that people failed to learn the game because of them as past L40 you'd suddenly have this massive amount of players who simply could not stay alive.

Those where the good days. I always had the near top of the line gear at that time, and I always used food ect... Now its just like... Engage, and just go surf the web, while letting the PL play the game for you.

Hell, I am actually trying to get parties to start Scing, and Mbing again. It is actually faster Exp, and it is much more funner. I had two sams in a party, I was as Rdm/Nin, had a Blm, and a Whm. At the start of the fight, the Sams did Tachi: Enpi, and then right after, three blizzards followed, and the mob was dead with mbing. We where gaining exp faster than Tp burn parties. Sure, it was in Kazham, but we gained really good exp.

As for the Pl thing. Everyone seems to have one. If I run into some one with a seacom "Have Pl, invite me!", I actually ignore it, and go to some one else that doesn't have a Pl. If some one comes with a Pl, and they didn't say anything, fine. If a random person starts to heal my party to level their healing skill, then leaves after a bit, so be it. But I actually try to stay away from Pls.

I miss teh Sc and MB days. Those where teh fun times.

[Raydeus]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

I miss SC + MB too.

Also miss tanking IT++ as a PLD in xp.



PS > Back in the old days people thought war/whm was stupid. But plds nowadays play it exactly like that.

How things have changed.

*cough cough*

Where are my meds?

[Takelli]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

PS > Back in the old days people thought war/whm was stupid. But plds nowadays play it exactly like that.

How things have changed.

Haha yup. At lower levels I don't mind War/Whm. Its fairly good IMO. esp if they are asked to tank lol. Dunes as War/Whm can be a life safer lol.

I even remember the War/Mnk "boost" tanking. XD

[Ziero]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

Didn't say you were wrong. Do you think you could be a bit more concise so I don't have to pick through long posts?

Sorry, I get bored and ranty while i'm at work

Does the specific party set-up you're referring to include a healer, nuker, tank, and two melee? Because, that's rather nonspecific. Believe it or not, Distortion wasn't always used, though when it was it's because Blizzard was always the strongest spell among the set.

Uh? How do slower battles with IT enemies promote over-hunting when there should be more time between pulls for the enemies to respawn?

What a laugh. The BEST players simply exploited game mechanics to earn easy EXP. It wasn't always profitable, and it sure it as hell wasn't always easy. You're probably asking yourself why it isn't always easy to earn easy EXP. Well, because, they weren't the best by any definition.

A specific party would be Rdm, Whm, Blm, Pld or Nin, and two jobs that could make either Distortion, Light or Darkness. Take away any of those and you wouldn't have a pt, or you'd have a 4k an hour pt at best. But why should a party depend on having a Blm? Or need a Pld or Nin? Hell even Whms and Rdms are replaceable nowadays.

I don't think you know what Overhunting means. Overhunting is the practice of taking mobs far too strong for your level because they reward you with the most Exp per kill. Which meant spending 5 minutes killing the same. Damn. Crab. And then you rest for another three minutes to go pull a second. It was this kind of thinking that made 4k an hour Pts the norm, and it was absolutely horrible. Because even back then, before ToAU ever came out, you could take 4 melee, 2 mages and tear the CRAP outta places like the Dunes and Qufim by focusing on T and VT mobs. Waiting for SCs only slowed you down when speed is the most important factor in gaining Exp.

And no job exclusion is no where near as bad today as it was. Any set up of 4 decent melee...including Pld and Nin, and two mage/support jobs can tear up 10-15k an hour. Before ToAU, you needed very select jobs in very select locations to even come close to that. And while it's still not a perfect system, it's much better then it used to be by leaps and bounds.

It is easy to earn Exp, the only hard part about getting Exp is having idiots hold you back. Thinking you have to kill IT mobs who give 200 exp a kill, a common occurrence back in the day, was a terrible strategy. Especially when you could always go after weaker mobs and get more Exp over time in smaller chunks. Stupid players can screw up TP burns just as bad, if not worse, as they can for SC+MB pts. But the best players, and the best strategy (and you can call it an "exploit" all want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's nothing more then a combat tactic) is to get an overwhelming amount of offense and kill weaker mobs to gain more Exp over time. Which is a much more demanding and engaging activity then spending 5-10 minutes killing the same single mob for a fraction of the Exp.

Perhaps on your server

. I quite clearly remember a very high competence rate in my parties in the 50-75 range. Of course there were always the bad apples who somehow managed to avoid being shunned by the entire server, but in general bad people did not make it past L60 for various reasons.

Bull. Crap. Bad gear and lack of food always existed but in somewhat lesser quantities, especially at high levels. Let me clarify: Back in the old days I'd expect your average Rank 2 L25 player to be a highly potential stinker, but if they were a L75 on an alt or L50+, they'd almost always be awesome, which so obviously was not the case after my return. I met several Rank 10s on alts wearing their race's starting equipment and not bringing any food well into their 20s.

As for PLs, I am absolutely 100% positive that I saw zero PLs during the two years or so I first played the game. ZERO. When I returned, it was like every single party below L40 had one. It was also very clear that people failed to learn the game because of them as past L40 you'd suddenly have this massive amount of players who simply could not stay alive.

Yes. Arrow burn, mana burn and TP burn were results of SE's design failures. These parties were not common back then and for the majority of the population might as well not have existed at all. Arrow burn was beheaded but for some reason the other broken forms of exping were not. Perhaps SE was just too slow to respond and by the time they were ready to do something about it, it was too wide spread and the moaning would have been too much.

And here we have another massive case of rose colored glasses. Did you honestly just try and say that anyone who had a 75 job back in the day was "almost" automatically a good player? That people in the dunes on second jobs always had good gear? That power levelers didn't exists at all on your wonderful, magical server? Really? I saw power levelers the first day I played the game, back before the NA PS2 version was released. They were in the dunes, in Qufim, in the jungles, hell I had friends get Plvled at 60 in Onzozo. I knew more about playing the game when I was 30 then most 75s I met, and it was a trend that has not changed. Exp was never hard, it was time consuming. And people with time on their hands could get through it with no problem...assuming they had the right jobs.

Seeing as we knew less about food and had FAR fewer gear options back in the day, I fail to see how it is even remotely possible that every single player back then had the best of everything. Especially considering back in the day it was either Snipers, Hauby, SH (all of which multimillion gill items) or gimp. Nowadays we have more viable options and cheaper/easier to obtain gear so that both casual and hardcore players can equip themselves fairly decently. Assuming they know what they're doing at least. Because knowing what you were doing has always been an issue and it's one that really hasn't changed at all.

Do you know why the "majority" of the population ignored burn PTs? Because 90% of the time they weren't invited. Because so few could gain so much Exp in a MUCH faster way then the majority of the joe schmos who thought 6k an hour was great Exp it became an issue. Because even back during CoP, there was a massive disparity between the Exp your average SC+MB pt could get and the Exp a burn Pt could pull in. And SE saw this and opened up world of burn pts to ALL players, and then made it better. The reason they nerfed Rng, the biggest bandwagon job at the time, had nothing to do with Exp pts. Because they're still powerful in those. They nerfed Rng because they were tearing down the strongest HNMs in the game with no effort due to the skewed ranged damage formulas. Even a cheaped out Rng was doing more then/as much dmg as a well off equiped Melee, and that was a balance issue. Exp issues weren't the reason behind that fix, and it's also why they never bothered the other jobs who could burn their Exp.

Also, Ziero, you keep saying exping is terrible. What do you enjoy in FFXI? Please tell me it's the story elements, or something, because if you say "end game", I can only recommend you to move to another game because the end game in FFXI sucks and has always sucked. You'll find much more enjoyment in WoW.

Really? Really? You want to know what I enjoy doing in this game? EVERYTHING ELSE BESIDES EXPING. See, exp pts are really only a small portion of the content this game has to offer, but people always focus on it the most since everyone has to do it and it's not particularly challenging. Even the biggest idiots could get a 75 job. And that is a fact that has not changed in the least. So while I hate having to lfg, get a pt, wait 30 minutes to an hour for everyone to gather, find a camp, find a new camp cause that one's taken, wait for the dumbass who caught aggro to HP and come back again, start pulling and then sit in the same spot for a mind numbing 3 hours whacking the same helpless mob over and over again with a bunch of idiots for something that I really shouldn't have to spend 3 hours getting, I do enjoy actually playing the rest of the game. Though from everything I hear, WoW endgame gets boring as it's the same few raids over and over while FFXI's has the largest and most varied endgame experience out there.

Those where the good days. I always had the near top of the line gear at that time, and I always used food ect... Now its just like... Engage, and just go surf the web, while letting the PL play the game for you.

Hell, I am actually trying to get parties to start Scing, and Mbing again. It is actually faster Exp, and it is much more funner. I had two sams in a party, I was as Rdm/Nin, had a Blm, and a Whm. At the start of the fight, the Sams did Tachi: Enpi, and then right after, three blizzards followed, and the mob was dead with mbing. We where gaining exp faster than Tp burn parties. Sure, it was in Kazham, but we gained really good exp.

I'm calling BS on this one. First off, if you're in a PT with a PL and you don't like it, you can just leave. I've done it plenty of times (long before ToAU) and I'd do it again if I had to. There's no need for PLs at any level.

Secondly, how can you have 3 blizzards going off when at best you'd have only two? And how could you make 10K+ an hour (which is totally doable in the jungles with a TP burn) with a SC+MB seeing as it would take a few fights before the two sams even had enough TP to SC. Unless you were taking a few minutes to kill a single IT mandy, which would by it's very nature reduce your exp per hour. The mobs were not exploding from two Enpi's and a blizzard and a half, it took time to whittle them down and took even more time to rest when the mages got low on MP. And chances are, you would've had to rest a lot.

I remember SC+MB pts too, and they were never as good as TP Burns. Not in the dunes, not in qufim, not in the jungles, not in Kuftal, not anywhere or anytime. It's this very fact that caused them to die out in the first place. TP burns are better and faster. But just like traditional SC+MB pts, you need good players to get the best out of a burn. Well equiped, smart players who pay attention and are able to keep up. Because in situations like that, all it takes is one screw up and you lose the chain, or even worse, you lose EXP. To me, TP Burns are far more engaging and demanding as you actually have to pay attention or you get left behind, which could easily throw the whole thing out of whack.

p.s. Past lvl 10, War/Whm was never good for anything.

[Ketaru]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

Also, Ziero, you keep saying exping is terrible. What do you enjoy in FFXI? Please tell me it's the story elements, or something, because if you say "end game", I can only recommend you to move to another game because the end game in FFXI sucks and has always sucked. You'll find much more enjoyment in WoW.

Please, that's one of the most asinine comments a person can make about FFXI as it exists now, especially in the context of this thread when we compare FFXI today to FFXI of the "good days".

Maybe you haven't noticed from the overwhelming amount of complaints about having to join pickup parties. But surprisingly, a lot of people view EXP parties as an (un)necessary evil, a means to an end so that they can enjoy other things. Without being 75, you're left out of a whole lot of content or lack access to a lot of resources that would actually help you level other jobs. And even if you did like EXP parties on certain jobs, because of the subjob system, you're forced to level other jobs you may not enjoy in order to level jobs you do enjoy.

And you can knock all over endgame all you want. I, for one, thought Limbus was going to be Dynamis 2.0 before I had any experience with it. Shocker when I finally started doing it, it's actually rather casual. It doesn't take hours to finish. And even if you miss out on some of the more luck based drops like Homam, Nashira, or certain AF+1s, you still have a fairly defined progression of rewards with time in ancient beastcoins. And, for the most part, I happen to think Limbus is a lot of fun for endgame content (some would even argue that it has become so casual now it might not even qualify as endgame). I look forward to doing it every Tuesday and Friday night.

And even without that, people still have things like Einherjar and Salvage, clearly events that do not have as stringent time requirements that older endgame content had. Factor in some non-endgame content like Campaign, FoV, MMM, and Assaults, and we would find there is plenty to like that is not EXP parties. Yeah, you may not like these things, but guess what. I despise EXP parties. It's just unfortunate that, when I was leveling my jobs, they were the only way to get to a level where I can enjoy these other things. Oh yeah...and incidentally, besides many of those other things, I do enjoy the story content actually.

Those where the good days. I always had the near top of the line gear at that time, and I always used food ect... Now its just like... Engage, and just go surf the web, while letting the PL play the game for you.

Past tense? Are you trying to say you don't now? If anything, there is an even higher demand to have good gear today than it was years ago. Your damage output, ability to budget MP, and your gear swapping seem to be under scrutiny more than ever now, if you ask me. Especially when decent gear is available to anybody, as Ziero said.

[Kailea]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

People will complain about anything and everything, even when there really is nothing wrong with it, thats why I ignore complains about 90% of the time, and go by my own experiences. Yes partying sucked in the loldrg days -.- I hated it. and it is much better now. It seems alot of people though, bitch about the stupidest and smallest things, that to be honest really dont matter in the big picture.

[Kouper]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

Thats the main problem with most MMORPGs.... soloing should NEVER be faster then grouping, its the whole of of a MMORPG group, do stuff, get stuff, enjoy

the latest additions to FFXI, have in all honesty, "fixed" the no soloing issue.

because if soloing is the fastest way to level...... then whats the f'ing point of even playing a MMORPG except to flaunt your e-peen

First of all, why does MMORPG mean you have to be grouped every second of the time you spend in game? Just asking, after all, one of the joys of games (especially of the magnitude that xi and other MMORPGS are) is finding the playstyle that suits you and makes you happy. Also, even with out being in a party, your still part of the world, there's a massive server based community, the economy, your link shell, and your friendslist.

Now, I've seen a few posts about how the game used to be.... Hmm I first played back in september of 04. I remember seeing people at level 30, wearing level 4/5ish equipment, with maybe one or two pieces that are near their level range. I remember over half my exp pt's not having a clue what they where doing, with maybe one or two people who could explain what to do and where helpfull. Maybe it was just my server (don't remember which) But I also grouped with plenty of people who where in their late twenties even early thirties who had no subjob. The way I saw it was the game was still fairly young, and still getting new players at enough of a rate that people didn't have the experience, or it was their first mmo and didn't know any better.

The difference now, is the game is older, and with your own experience being that much higher you recognize the "bad players" differently then you would have. Atleast, thats what I assume. that and the game has grown steadily, you have more new players who don't know what they're doing, and get ratted out as being bad, when really they just need help. WoW has the problem of being known as being full of idiots, when really its just the idiots are really really loud. That and the game has grown so large that there are more of them because of sheer numbers. I never have a problem finding a competent group, however its those lazy players that bother me.

Now as for people who are scared of the casual player, please, don't fear us. Embrace us, we aren't bad. I am a casual player now, since I first picked up FFXI I have finished college, gotten married, had kids, and gotten an extremely well paying job that demands a great deal of my time. I go out of town multiple times a month for fun and business. I don't have the same time that some of the people here have to play, however, I know my role, and I do my job well. The person who should be feared is the lazy player. That player who never upgrades his gear, the player who, even when taught a better way to help the group refuses. Or the player who has terrible gear, and is looking for a group to carry him through a hard encounter... That is the person to truly fear, especially if you get enough of them that the game starts catering to them.

Difficulty, when you say FFXI is difficult, if you then mention leveling up in any other game, you deserve to be slapped. The fact is, even 4 and a half years ago, FFXI was not hard to level up in, it just took an ungodly amount of time. So please, if you are going to talk about the game being hard, please please please mention specific end game fights, or mid level bcnm's that are hard to beat and the involved difficulty is more then waiting hours on end for a spawn and praying to god you claimed it.

By the same thought, making it easier to level, especially solo does not make the game itself easier. It makes it more convenient. The fact is, Not everyone wants it to take months and months and months to hit cap, nor does that make the game anymore leet.

At the end of the day, i am waiting for an email at work, and am extremely ranty and long winded. This is aimed at no one in particular, and if you're taking offense, please dont.

[Kailea]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

First of all, why does MMORPG mean you have to be grouped every second of the time you spend in game? Just asking, after all, one of the joys of games (especially of the magnitude that xi and other MMORPGS are) is finding the playstyle that suits you and makes you happy. Also, even with out being in a party, your still part of the world, there's a massive server based community, the economy, your link shell, and your friendslist.

Not saying that you have to be in a party 24/7, but when you allow someone to gain EXP faster solo then in a party, it creates a game full of independent people, instead of bringing them together and work together, like your suppose to.

[Kouper]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

Not saying that you have to be in a party 24/7, but when you allow someone to gain EXP faster solo then in a party, it creates a game full of independent people, instead of bringing them together and work together, like your suppose to.

I can't think of a game where you level faster solo, although in wow people rarely group while leveling because they'd rather do their own thing. Then again, in wow your punished for groups because you're making the fights easier, outside of instances that is. So you actually gain less xp per kill, even though you should be able to kill considerably faster. Its just become the accepted and expected method, especially since blizz removed all of the elites from outside of instances....

Please don't get me wrong, I love FFXI, the problem is its just too time consuming for my life now, and I no longer know anyone playing the game, otherwise I'd go pick up yet another copy and start over.

[Ketaru]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

Not saying that you have to be in a party 24/7, but when you allow someone to gain EXP faster solo then in a party, it creates a game full of independent people, instead of bringing them together and work together, like your suppose to.

But the thing is, it's not faster to solo than party, at least once you get to level 15 or so. For some people, it's just much less annoying. I can safely say I've gotten maybe 75% of my merits soloing as BST or RDM/BST, Campaign, FoV, soloing in Sea while farming organs. But that doesn't mean these ways get it faster. It just means I could do these things longer without getting annoyed by playing that way. That also doesn't mean I exclusively like playing by myself. That's just the way the cards fell. I like Campaign because, to some degree, it did address this. I still play at my own discretion, but with other people. And if they don't like the way I'm doing it, they can leave, because I'm not going anywhere. They can't boot me from the party, so to speak.

You can get plenty of group dynamics from doing events. But if you like playing a job a certain way that does not mesh well with others in a group (like melee RDM for example), or you like breaking up your playing frequently (it's rude to go AFK every 15 minutes in an EXP party), it's only so long before compromising and working together becomes "Doing what other people tell you to do." It just so happens now you can get EXP (but not sky gear, sea gear, HNM gear, or even just plain ol' Assault gear) by yourself albeit more slowly than a party.

...Besides it's not as if soloing does not make you a better player in its own way. My Parry and Shield skills are much higher than some non-PLD non-NIN career meleers I know.

The thing is FoV was not only designed with soloing in mind. People can group for those. It's not uncommon for me to duo them with others. The update to Signet a long time ago? It was designed to benefit groups, just not 6 person groups. And the Level Sync feature, however much it is allegedly abused, was designed to facilitate partying. It does nothing for soloing unless you're in a level capped area (many level capped areas, of which, are designed so groups, and sometimes even alliances, are required).

[Takelli]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

can't think of a game where you level faster solo, although in wow people rarely group while leveling because they'd rather do their own thing. Then again, in wow your punished for groups because you're making the fights easier, outside of instances that is. So you actually gain less xp per kill, even though you should be able to kill considerably faster. Its just become the accepted and expected method, especially since blizz removed all of the elites from outside of instances....

Flyff. Maple Story, 12 Sky, 12 Sky 2, Dragon Sky, Knight Online, KAL online... Want me to keep going?

As for the Solo thing goes, you should be able to gain a decent rate of Exp solo, like 3/4s of a Party speed, but not be abl eto out exp a full party. Like a few Trios can do, they can out exp a few parties if they are skilled enough.

Solo in FFXI also yields more money than exp so I do think that is a fair trade off. People who solo will have more money than those that who do not solo. When ever I need some extra cash, I do a few FoVs on target monsters that have decent drops. I used to kill Dhamels in the FoV, and get like 500 gil/hour + 15 Dhamel hides (800 each) per page. Sure, its not as fast of a party in terms of exp, but you sure do get a hell of a lot more money than a party.

[Sekighara]

Re: FFXIV, I hope it's not like what this has become.

Well I keep on seeing the term design flaw being thrown around alot. A design flaw is much more serious then an expansion that changed play type. In that case brood war expanision for Star Craft had tons of design flaws because they introduced alot of unbalanced combos that changed how player played. No a design flaw is something that fails to work or the losing or damaging of something vital. Did any ones computer get completely wiped of its memory due to talking to a random npc to soon like in Magna Carta mysterious of the avalanche (SP). TOAU as much as I really don't like to say it did exactly what they promised. They gave players a whole new adventure. The mobs in TOAU are meant to be so different then the the ones from launch, ROZ, and COP.

A Bird that steals food and has mimc. A mob that can cause a whole party to loose job abilites. These are drastic changes to give the players something they want. Brand new experiences. What was done to make this mobs balanced made them prime targets for new play styles. Is that the designers fault no not really. Because a traditional party could fight then and then the DDs will reduce the damage more then previously then SC + AM to finish it off because it can't mimic if it is dead. Same play style just requires more work to get to. But people found a better way that killed them better and had the man power to do it so they did it. Its just like say the safe maker didn't plan for a person to get into the safe with out the combo sowhen the user doesn't bother to to remember the combonation had to crack the safe but because it was so well made could not be cracked it is the designers fault. WTH would you want stuff that differs from their purpose.

They could have made all the lolbris into Chuck Norrisbris and have all imps wearing the yellow jump suit with the black stripe and have dragon kick. But the players have confirmed they wouldn't enjoy fighting those. People in B Tree avoid spiders because AOE slow and then sickle slash. That is a killer combo and will destory a nin tank party easily. So the parties just waited for the crawlers or the crabs to respawn.

For designers and programmers it is important their product get enjoyed or is useful because they get paid reguardless in big projects. That is because it is something they created just like if you make dinner and no one eats it. It stings a little bit in the back of your subconcious.

So don't blame the designers because they didn't plan for people to out think them. I am pretty ure they didnt plan for some one to come up with the strategy of reflect III on your self and tripling the power of spells that you cast on your self to destroy the enemy in 9. But people did it and it worked so they kept doing it to wipe out those pesky ruby dragons in one go. That is all the player fault so in a MMORPG no one is innocent because you are apart of a collective. So blame your prodeccessor that came up with the strats to kill HNMs and solo BCNM and battle gods and jailers. Those great minds or the like minded came up with the burns as well. You know if there wasn't forums and info we spreading around on the net about FFXI each server might be vastly different from each other to the extent that switching servers is like playing a new game.