The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

[Neomage]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Eh, I liked the Auction House, I hope they keep it, or at least make something similar to it. Granted, I didn't like the 7 item limit, that was annoying. But the whole price system? That was awesome. Several months after I quit FFXI I went to play another game, Age of Conan. They didn't have an AH system, but rather a Bazaar like many people here are discribing, with set prices shown. That system sucked, and I don't want t see anything like it in FFIV.

[Raydeus]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

I never liked that mentality that everyone should be able to get everything. Why should a "casual" player's gear be as great as a "hardcore" player? One is obviously putting in a lot more time and effort into the game then the other, why shouldn't they reap the rewards from it? See, the difference between the person who has a relic and the guy who doesn't isn't just play times, it's perseverance. The guy with the relic obviously wanted it way more then you did, and put a lot more effort into it. While you and others may not think it was worth it (and in many cases, it really isn't) that relic holder thought it was, and put their efforts into getting that weapon. People who put more effort in should in return get more reward. And things like Relics and Mythics are the ultimate example of that.

-Because they both pay the same amount of money each month.
-Because the way I explain it the casual player would spend more time and effort getting the same relic in the long run.
-Because an online game is not a place for people to try to compensate for inferiority complex or their need to feel special and unique.
-Etc. Etc. Etc.

[Armando]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

-Because they both pay the same amount of money each month.

Hiiiiiiiiiighly irrelevant.

-Because the way I explain it the casual player would spend more time and effort getting the same relic in the long run.

How is he casual then?

-Because an online game is not a place for people to try to compensate for inferiority complex or their need to feel special and unique.

Earth to Raydeus. The console RPG formula has ALWAYS been to hook the player with a sense of progression, not with real gameplay. Attempts at a plot that didn't suck and gameplay that wasn't shallow only came later.

RPGs are Harvest Moon with a Story Mode.

[Raydeus]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Ugh. Armando I'll just put you in my ignore list too.

I have no desire to deal with another BBQ.

[Armando]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Perhaps you should start posting ideas that make sense.

And I don't mean "buying everything through a Campaign-like system."

[Ziero]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

I am sure there would be more hten 7, since all they screamed about where "limitations"

I swear if the start that with FXIV..... I would want to know what back water POS dev kit they are using for the PS3 ;p

Even FFXI didn't start with just 7 slots. It originally had 10. It didn't work too well.

-Because they both pay the same amount of money each month.
-Because the way I explain it the casual player would spend more time and effort getting the same relic in the long run.
-Because an online game is not a place for people to try to compensate for inferiority complex or their need to feel special and unique.
-Etc. Etc. Etc.

-They're both offered the same gaming potential. The only difference is themselves. Which should be the only limiting factor in a game.
-They can already do that now. A "casual" player can still get a relic casually, it just takes a lot longer. There is no play time requirement to a relic, only personal issues.
-So anyone who plays this game more then someone else and likes to get the best gear they can as soon as possible has an inferiority complex? Sounds to me like the ones who "can't" get the gear are the ones with the inferiority complex. Seeing as they're bitching about something that in the end, really doesn't matter.

If you're a casual player, why do you need to have gear as good as the guy who plays more then you? Why do you need to have a Relic or Mythic? Why do you have to be even with the guy who constantly plays? And for that matter, why should you be even with the guy who constantly plays? If anyone has the inferiority complex, it's the one who's complaining about what he doesn't have, not the one who went out and got it.

Relics and Mythics in this game are *supposed* to be rare, only obtainable by those who really try for it. And whether you want to admit it or not, those people who've gotten relics in a few months, they put in just as much effort into getting their weapons as anyone else. Just because you, as a casual player, don't want to spend "years" gathering currency, farming the R/E mats, beating the zones etc etc doesn't mean a casual player can't do it. Because there's nothing stopping a casual player from getting a relic, it just takes time.

Which is exactly what you asked for...only you wanted it to be easier. But the strongest weapons in the game should be the hardest items to get in game, so I see no problem.

[Raydeus]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

-They're both offered the same gaming potential. The only difference is themselves. Which should be the only limiting factor in a game.
-They can already do that now. A "casual" player can still get a relic casually, it just takes a lot longer. There is no play time requirement to a relic, only personal issues.

- They are not. Players with irregular schedules and limited time to play have no way to get these items because they come from events that require very rigid time commitments and groups, and are impossible to solo or low man.

-If the Dynamis system was more like Campaign you'd have a point but it is not. It is designed to be done by large groups (which in turn requires time commitments) so while technically there's the possibility of somehow, someway you could get a relic by playing at your own pace you know perfectly well that's not how things work.

-So anyone who plays this game more then someone else and likes to get the best gear they can as soon as possible has an inferiority complex? Sounds to me like the ones who "can't" get the gear are the ones with the inferiority complex. Seeing as they're bitching about something that in the end, really doesn't matter.

If you're a casual player, why do you need to have gear as good as the guy who plays more then you? Why do you need to have a Relic or Mythic? Why do you have to be even with the guy who constantly plays? And for that matter, why should you be even with the guy who constantly plays? If anyone has the inferiority complex, it's the one who's complaining about what he doesn't have, not the one who went out and got it.

It's obvious that the more time you have to play the faster you'd get items and be better geared than people who doesn't have that much time to play. But that's not what I'm talking about here.

What I'm talking about is about players who even though they have the advantage to get the gear faster still want to block other players from also having the opportunity to get the same items. Specially if they don't have as much time to play.

Like I said in my example if you could get a relic in half the time in a group and spending more time online every day then why would you want to deny other players the chance to get it at their own pace?

Because it wouldn't be as special? Because it would water down the accomplishment? If people want some sense of accomplishment why would that depend on wether or not the item is one of a kind or restricted in some way? The effort put to obtain it should be more than enough for that purpose.

Relics and Mythics in this game are *supposed* to be rare, only obtainable by those who really try for it. And whether you want to admit it or not, those people who've gotten relics in a few months, they put in just as much effort into getting their weapons as anyone else. Just because you, as a casual player, don't want to spend "years" gathering currency, farming the R/E mats, beating the zones etc etc doesn't mean a casual player can't do it. Because there's nothing stopping a casual player from getting a relic, it just takes time.

Which is exactly what you asked for...only you wanted it to be easier. But the strongest weapons in the game should be the hardest items to get in game, so I see no problem.

No one asked for relics to be easy to get and certainly no one doubts people who got a relic put some good amount of effort to get them. Again, it is not about making it easy, it's about making it realistically possible to do.

What I want is for people to have options to get to the same goals at their own pace.

Going back to my example, imagine you need X rare material to get a weapon. If you could:

A) Obtain the item from a high lvl HNM kind of monster with a decent drop rate. (Maybe a week)

B) Obtain it by trading currency or other items you obtain from Dynamis-like events. (Maybe a month)

C) Obtain it through a Campaign system where you would require a lot of CP to get. (Maybe 2-3 months to obtain)

(Times are of course assigned for the sake of clarity, I have no idea how SE would determine appropiate time spans)

A would be faster than B and much faster than C. The point is that even if the player going the C route would take a lot more time to get the same item they still have the chance to do so without being punished for not having time to play or to schedule around a LS.

Obviously it has to be balanced to encourage playing in a group so A and B will always be faster than C. If the player only having the C route as an option thinks it's worth it or not that will be personal preference. But the option has to be there for players who simply can't do it in any other way.

That's what I'm talking about.

[Armando]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Now we're getting somewhere.

- They are not. Players with irregular schedules and limited time to play have no way to get these items because they come from events that require very rigid time commitments and groups, and are impossible to solo or low man.

This is a problem with the game itself. FFXIV may not be designed the same way as FFXI, so you can't generalize the argument to FFXIV. As for everything else...

Your idea has plenty of merit but I don't like the notion of generalizing it to every single aspect of the game. I'm sorry that some players have limited play time, but that doesn't imply they should have absolutely everything available to them. Nor should they feel gimp because they can't access X or Y activity. I *like* the fact that right now, FFXI's endgame has so many activities that you can pick the one you want and be rewarded. Your non-AH equipment, to a certain extent, reflects your in-game experiences.

The important things is that the game offers comparable/competitive alternatives to those that can't invest several hours each day every day into the game, NOT that the game opens its doors to everything it has to offer to absolutely everyone. For example. Rajas Ring is proof that I went through the whole ordeal that is CoP. I don't want somebody else running around with a Rajas Ring he obtained through 2 months of work in some Campaign-like grind. Petty? Hardly. It's not like Rajas is the be-all end-all ring. The improvement in performance it bestows upon me is miniscule. But it's special because you have to do CoP to get it. Those that can't do CoP still do just fine with their AH-bought Woodsman/Sniper's Ring or their ZNM-obtained Blood Ring.

Not that CoP isn't a bigger headache than it should've been. But that's besides the point. It's not that I don't want CoP to be accessible. But Rajas Ring should remain CoP-specific just like Askar should remain Nyzul-specific and Homam should stay Limbus-specific. It doesn't matter if you invest more time in the long run under your system.

Casual players can't get relics? Tough, I guess. Why are they so bothered about it? Even if I had the means, I don't think I could be bothered to put all that work into it. Casual players can't directly obtain a Damascus Ingot? They can still raise the money to buy one.

SE has been moving in the direction you want as of late - providing good equipment with reasonable acquisition methods - and I certainly hope that trend continues in FFXIV.

[DakAttack]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Casual players can't get relics? Tough, I guess. Why are they so bothered about it? Even if I had the means, I don't think I could be bothered to put all that work into it. Casual players can't directly obtain a Damascus Ingot? They can still raise the money to buy one.

The game is about progression, through levels, missions, equipment, etc, and it's bothersome when we're excluded from certain content because, for some reason or another, it's a time sink and we simply don't have the time. In FFXI, things end up being a time sink because there's a lot of preparation to do, and a lot of time is spent gathering six players together to complete a mission or quest, or just level up. If it isn't time spent preparing for the content, the content drags out, making it difficult to reach various milestones. A good example would be the first few missions of CoP. Gathering a party together, balanced for facing the bosses, took a lot of time, and, after your organized a party, the trek to the bosses could equally as long or even longer still. All in all, it can be an entire evening's worth of time spent completing a single mission.

What casual players want is accessibility. It can be as tough as all hell, but, if it's broken up into smaller pieces, all players will have the time to make some amount of progress. Hardcore players will inevitably progress faster, but the casual players will still have access to that content, and may eventually reap the rewards of a lot of hard work.

Would that be a problem?

[Armando]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Would that be a problem?

No, not at all. Like I said, I wholly agree that CoP - and many other aspects of FFXI - should be more accessible (yet at the same time I would like missions with more dungeon-based content than, say, ToAU which was really just a long string of cutscenes peppered with a few BCs and forced JP midnight timers.)

On that topic, I think part of the problem is that practically all the content in the game caters either to 6 man parties specifically, or can be done solo. The only time you do missions with, say, 3 people, is generally when the mission is uncapped and you're bringing 75's into a fight that was meant for Lv.60's. Getting 2 more people is much easier than getting 5 more. If Promyvions had had a max party size of 4, with 3 still being perfectly doable, and the actual dungeon had been designed with 3 people max in mind, it would've been a lot more manageable.

I just disagree with the notion of taking content-specific rewards and making it available through some other system that's just a solo-friendly grind, even if it takes longer to get it that way. Just make the original event more accessible.

I also don't think everything should cater to the lowest common denominator. I think large-scale battles are pretty cool. But at the same time there should be alternatives and the people that can't participate in that kind of event shouldn't be punished.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Time investment alone shouldn't really mean you get rewarded handsomely, in a game like this competiotion, cooperation and risk must also be considered.

I don't have a lot of time to play these days, but even with what time I have I can do campaign, new quests and missions and explore newer zones.

That and I don't really feel the pressure of having new "leet" gear and keeping up with the Joneses. Raydeus and others want to keep up with the others without the same level of effort. Its like going to a doctor, him giving you a treatment plan and you don't exactly follow it. Instead, you pick and choose what parts of the treatment you want to do, but you expect the same results other patients are getting because you're paying the doctor the same fees.

Guess what? Different people's bodies work differently in some respects and if you don't follow a similar path, you can't hope for your results to match up to something vaguely similar so they can't figure out what to do next for you.

You want the same gratification, the same reward without the same effort.

I don't feel a bit less of a player just because someone has a cooler piece of gear than I do, but I keep up with and exceed lot of the RNGs I meet with similar or better gear. People still swear by me as a COR and will pick me over other ones because I actually use the damn gun and won't sit on 6s.

Only ever had one melee PT complaint about my SCH and that one complaint was the praise of every other melee PT I've done. That was because the leader of that one bad melee PT though SCHs were curebots and not Accession buffers.

I've lead numerous people to Sea and completion of other missions multiple times. I really don't have anything to feel bad about or that makes me feel like less of a player now that I have less time to play. I don't need special treatment or special rewards just because I don't have a lot of time to play. I just change my goals to something more realistic or go catch up on games that require less time to invest.

MMORPGs will never be perfectly designed for those with little time to play, if time is always your issue, you're just in the wrong subset of RPGs. You can have more meaningful experiences elsewhere, but that doesn't mean that SE should diminish the meaning and sense of accomplishment of other players for your sake by making things easier and more rewarding for you.

Earth to Raydeus. The console RPG formula has ALWAYS been to hook the player with a sense of progression, not with real gameplay. Attempts at a plot that didn't suck and gameplay that wasn't shallow only came later.

Armando, I'm all for correcting Raydeus on the numerous things he's just wrong about, but stop saying crap like this. You go on and on about RPGs not requiring skill and having no real gameplay. If I only classify skill and gameplay as muscle memory, then the only games I'd ever need to play are FPS and fighters.

By your logic, even games like Professor Layton or Sudoku aren't skill-based, but if you can't apply logical reasoning to them you are fucked. Reasoning is a skill. I just had to sift through a mapless island in Zelda with a boat analogy as my only clue, save for the island wan't shaped like a boat, but a whale.

I had to explore the island, piece that map together in my mind to even see the whale, visualize it and then covert the boat analogy as it would apply to a whale. Where is the rudder, where are the paddles, where is the waterspout and where are the things that "see the way?" I thought the game originally was talking about a boat til I got to the waterspout metaphor. Iy wasn't until the "rudder" was well abover where it would be on the "boat" that I saw the whale.

This is one of those classic moments in Zelda where they take the system they've familarized you with and start making you think more in terms of the abstract. This is a skill. And RPGs do it, too.

Sure, everyone can bang around an RPG and get to the ending if they wanted to, but there's a difference between finishing an RPG and mastering the system. And that's begging the question if anyone would finish the RPG to start with.

Take something like Etrian Oddyessy and you've strpped away the linear story, the story is now one of your own creation and its now primarily about exploration, resource management, quest completion and character building. There's no driving plot at all. This is what RPGs really are and there have always been people asking "how did you do that" in various RPGs. Knowing how they got it isn't a garuntee you'll get to that point either, its just a matter of your potential.

Then some have multiple paths of varying difficulty. Little did I know I was going to actually be stripped of my demons the moment I said I wanted to rid the world of demons in Devil Survivor. I just thought that was something I was working toward as it is one of the paths, but the game decided to give me exactly what I wished for just before accomplishing it, cutting my ranks down by 75% and leaving me with four humans.

Final Fantasy is about following a story to a predetermined outcome, but I can't say that about all RPGs, that wouldn't be fair. And if we're talking about mastery, then its not even fair to Final Fantasy. Especially so if I said anything about them requiring no skill.

[Malacite]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Your idea has plenty of merit but I don't like the notion of generalizing it to every single aspect of the game. I'm sorry that some players have limited play time, but that doesn't imply they should have absolutely everything available to them. Nor should they feel gimp because they can't access X or Y activity. I *like* the fact that right now, FFXI's endgame has so many activities that you can pick the one you want and be rewarded. Your non-AH equipment, to a certain extent, reflects your in-game experiences.

The problem with this however is that not every event has equal rewards. I'm also a big believer that events should not be time consuming in order to make them difficult or block too many people from getting incredibly powerful gear. Unfortunately SE doesn't seem to share this sentiment, at least in XI. But XIV could very well be different.

[Armando]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Sorry BBQ but I'm not going to read and cut apart your block of text this time. It's too time consuming and you're ultimately debating something completely unrelated to the original point. If it was the first time, I guess I would, but this is going to keep happening.

Point: Really old RPGs had shitty gameplay. E.g. Final Fantasy I original release. People would still get hooked because in between the sucky plot, they would level up, acquire more spells (even though usually it's just a stronger version of an earlier spell) and get better equipment. I doubt anyone would've stuck with FF1 to the end if they didn't have that sense of progression to fill the void between plot elements.

That is all.

Obviously not all RPGs have god-awful gameplay or god-awful plots. That's why I said attempts at a plot and gameplay that doesn't suck came later. Some RPGs have flipping wonderful plots, others have really engrossing gameplay and an even smaller group manages to have both at the same time. But the really old ones tended to suck really hardcore.

Obviously a game doesn't need to require muscle memory or twitch skill to be entertaining. I never said anything of the sort. Final Fantasy Tactics is fucking deep and brilliant and you take all the time in the world to act. Unlike your run-of-the-mill RPG, I don't know what's going to happen in a random battle in advance, or how to end the battle in 2 turns. If you want to call being good at FFT "skill," fine, whatever.

Shit, I didn't even mention the word "skill" this time. But no, I'm not going to debate what it means, which games have it, what things count as it, or anything of the sort either. We did that before. You can look up what I refer to when I toss the word "skill" around in previous threads, apply it to the next time I make a crazy statement, and save us both the trouble.

You're a cool guy, you post things that make sense more often than not and you have good taste in games, but I can't go on a 2-page wall-o'-text thread derail every time I speak boldly to drive the point home and you disagree. Not just me, I'm sure the other posters will get sick of that quickly too.

EDIT: And to be clear, I don't pretend to be immune to the "progression hooking factor." God knows I get hooked on shit like Harvest Moon way too easily. Not that Harvest Moon is a bad game.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

The problem with this however is that not every event has equal rewards. I'm also a big believer that events should not be time consuming in order to make them difficult or block too many people from getting incredibly powerful gear. Unfortunately SE doesn't seem to share this sentiment, at least in XI. But XIV could very well be different.

When Sky gear came out, we wondered why certain jobs didn't get it, but then, everyone got access to some kind of abjuration.

When Sea gear came out, every job that couldn't get the Sky gear got access to Sea gear. To replace abjurations, Sea/Limbus had Torques and AF+1s.

ToA endgame has a large mix of events that unfolded in their own way.

Some of the value of gear has waned or lost some job priority, but overall, one round of endgame gear has not come along and obsoleted the next, nor has every event given every job something awesome. But if every event gave us something awesome, then there would be pressure to make everything better when the newest event is unveiled.

And 'lo FFXI would fall into the trap of obsoleting one phase of endgame for another like other MMOs.

Burning Crusade: Yo, FT, I hear your gear is shit now.
Frozen Throne: Your gear is shit, too, buddy.
Burning Crusade: WHAT?!?!
Wrath of the Lich King: Oh, hi.

[Malacite]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

The thing is, Abjuration armor is still better than a lot of the stuff that's come since. It's pretty god damned sad when Adaman/Armada is better than Ares for a WAR or DRK even though Zilart was the 1st "expansion" (the devs consider it the other half of the original game)

The mythic weapons by in large suck compared to relics, and take even more effort to obtain. I could go on but the point is bad design is bad design, and not everyone can attend the events they want to do for the gear they'd like. I applaud SE for trying to create reasonable alternatives so as not to obsolete older gear, but more often than not the Zilart Era stuff still trumps the newer equipment and it's just plain stupid.

I'm pointing this out because getting Sky/Sea can be a pain in the ass for some people, while doing assault and salvage is by comparison a lot easier. But do the equipments compare? Not in my eyes.

Dynamis is ultimately one of the most rewarding events in the game (Relic Weapons) but is so poorly designed and time consuming most won't even bother. Or, they'll get to maybe stage 3 at best and then quit when they see just how much further it is to the finished weapon. Time constraints are one of the worst ways to try and inflate the difficulty. I'd rather SE try to come up with more mobs along the lines of AV/PW, but not quite as strong. You know, something that's genuinely challenging and requires thoughtful planning/strategy, but isn't impossibly hard either (which AV and PW are, even though they've been killed a few times)