The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

[Armando]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

People are always going to strive to create similar builds, even in games where there is no swapping and one item is always better then the next for something.

Yes, but their builds won't guard against everything. It won't be absolute. FFXI allows you to have a blend of Acc/Attack/Haste while attacking, max Haste/Interruption Rate Down while casting Utsusemi, max Enmity when using hate tools, max Cure Potency when healing, and max Enfeebling Skill when enfeebling. You don't think that's the least bit fucked up? There's no need to think. Just grab all the best gear for each action and slap 'em on!

But even in FFXI people debate what is best, and we end up seeing similar, yet varied builds for different players in the same situations.

Please. The only variance is either insignificant (Potent Belt VS Life Belt), or sub-optimal choices caused by not knowing any better.

And by "defensive abilities", or rather "reactive situations", I mean situations where you're fighting a mob one moment, but are attacked by another, or pull hate youself so you're the target. Or as you suggested, throwing on magic resistant gear when being hit by a big spell.

If the situation changed suddenly that's...tough. Too bad. If there was such a risk, you should've either re-evaluated your gear set OR made sure you absolutely weren't going to get caught in that situation. You shouldn't be entitled to Unforseen Situation Insurance. I feel it's asinine that any player, on any job, can change from maximum performance within their role to maximum defense and back again when the threat is over, on the fly, with no restrictions. It goes right back to what I said earlier about being able to have max DPS when DPS'ing, max Cure Potency when curing, and so on. That sort of "mode shift" is best left to a job's abilities, which have restrictions and can be regulated easily.

If attacks and spells could have persistent, lasting effects, it would open up a whole new style of play and create a completely new reason to select your gear.

If only things would move in such a direction. FFXI is too shallow in gameplay and tries to compensate by providing the means to create extremist gear builds. Having to resort to a specific counter-threat build is not my idea of depth; that's just trying to cover up the fact that the gameplay isn't deep enough to allow for real skill to have more influence in the outcome of a fight. I can't help but feel that Skill >> Gear doesn't really hold true. For me, ideally, gear should be to customize my character, not to create sets whose sole purpose is to counter a specific mob.

[Takelli]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Yes, but their builds won't guard against everything. It won't be absolute. FFXI allows you to have a blend of Acc/Attack/Haste while attacking, max Haste/Interruption Rate Down while casting Utsusemi, max Enmity when using hate tools, max Cure Potency when healing, and max Enfeebling Skill when enfeebling. You don't think that's the least bit fucked up? There's no need to think. Just grab all the best gear for each action and slap 'em on!

Well, when FFXIV does come out, I Hope there wont be anything like this. Also, I have heard that the battle system will be more of a "Real time" battle than what FFXI is.

Also... Where is your character keeping like 8 different staves that are bigger than the character as well? Hmmm.. "Imma go back to get my light staff to cure you guys Brb..." *flashes out and back with a light staff* "Ok, heal done, let me go to my mog hosue to grab my Dark staff to rest" *Flashes in and out witha dark staf now*

I wouldn't mind a system where you have multiple swords for something. Like a sword on your left hip that has attack +, a sword on your back for Def+, and a sword on your right side for Str+ and the such. Thw sword would be fine as your character can actually carry the swords and such on their self, but as for staves and armor... Where are they hiding it? O.o;

[Ziero]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Because Skill > Gear alone doesn't hold true when push comes to shove. The best player in the world can only do so much without good gear and the worst player can be somewhat effective when they have great gear.

But combine a great player with great gear and you have a thing of beauty to behold.

The problem with FFXI is that it made a specific stat too powerful for a given situation, but over time options can and will arise. Store TP and six hit builds are a much bigger thing now then they were 4 years ago, to the point people will sacrifice haste or Acc to perfect their new STP build. People have to decide whether XX Acc or YY Str on a piece would be better for a specific WS or if they should go with Int or Mab or Macc for the spell they're using on whatever target their facing. What the new game needs is different options for different builds that can accomplish the same basic task. However if even one of these builds just slightly eeks out the others in terms of efficiency, then everyone who wants to be the best will always strive to copy that build. And even if you can only use one build at a time for a specific fight, players will still copy each other in every situation.

While swapping through three different gear sets during one single spell cast is a bit much, people recognize that and suggest that it should be limited. But Min/Maxing as a whole should not be done away with. A player should not be punished if a situation suddenly changes and they're not allowed to be prepared. Why should that Sam who just pulled hate not be allowed to throw on their Def gear? Why should that Thf who is trying to hold off a link from their party be penalized by not being able to equip his evasion build? Why shouldn't that main healing Rdm be able to equip his enfeebling gear to help sleep/disable the mobs who are destroying his group? Why shouldn't players have the option to be prepared for any emergency that arises without notice?

Unless this game turns into a full feature, real time action RPG where you swing you weapon with every button press and evade hits by actively dodging, "skill" will always be a sign of those who are prepared. And again, even in PSU, a game that WAS a real time hack and slash fighter, the best players carried a varied amount of weapons and items and constantly switched to what was best in any given situation. And the game promoted that, it gave people a wealth of options to work towards. But because every other aspect of the game failed hard, the concept was sadly restricted. But if FFXIV had a similar concept behind it's gear system, it could be great.

Well, when FFXIV does come out, there wont be anything like this. Also, I have heard that the battle system will be more of a "Real time" battle than what FFXI is.

Also... Where is your character keeping like 8 different staves that are bigger than the character as well? Hmmm.. "Imma go back to get my light staff to cure you guys Brb..." *flashes out and back with a light staff* "Ok, heal done, let me go to my mog hosue to grab my Dark staff to rest" *Flashes in and out witha dark staf now*

I wouldn't mind a system where you have multiple swords for something. Like a sword on your left hip that has attack +, a sword on your back for Def+, and a sword on your right side for Str+ and the such. Thw sword would be fine as your character can actually carry the swords and such on their self, but as for staves and armor... Where are they hiding it? O.o;

Magical gobby bags. One of the few things they actually explain...sorta.

[Kailea]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Well, when FFXIV does come out, I Hope there wont be anything like this. Also, I have heard that the battle system will be more of a "Real time" battle than what FFXI is.

Also... Where is your character keeping like 8 different staves that are bigger than the character as well? Hmmm.. "Imma go back to get my light staff to cure you guys Brb..." *flashes out and back with a light staff* "Ok, heal done, let me go to my mog hosue to grab my Dark staff to rest" *Flashes in and out witha dark staf now*

I wouldn't mind a system where you have multiple swords for something. Like a sword on your left hip that has attack +, a sword on your back for Def+, and a sword on your right side for Str+ and the such. Thw sword would be fine as your character can actually carry the swords and such on their self, but as for staves and armor... Where are they hiding it? O.o;

up their butt ^.^

[Takelli]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

up their butt ^.^

Haha XD

Unless this game turns into a full feature, real time action RPG where you swing you weapon with every button press and evade hits by actively dodging, "skill" will always be a sign of those who are prepared. And again, even in PSU, a game that WAS a real time hack and slash fighter, the best players carried a varied amount of weapons and items and constantly switched to what was best in any given situation. And the game promoted that, it gave people a wealth of options to work towards. But because every other aspect of the game failed hard, the concept was sadly restricted. But if FFXIV had a similar concept behind it's gear system, it could be great.

I have NEVER seen any other (online) game that allows you to switch gear mind battle in a game. Sure, while you are running about trying to find your next kill, you can. Sit be hind a rock, pull our your dagger, and then sneak up behind the enemy stab them, and continue.

But most of the games that I have seen that can do this are off line. Yea, a few online games do this too, but its just to increase your defense when you level up. You go kill a few things, you level up, buy new armor put it on, and go back out and start killing again, and repeat.

[Armando]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Why should that Sam who just pulled hate not be allowed to throw on their Def gear?

Because he made the mistake of pulling hate. Now he deals with it.

Want SAMs to have some means of defending themselves? Want THFs to have some means of kiting? Why not give them abilities to do so?

But Min/Maxing as a whole should not be done away with.

Obviously not. I just strongly disagree with the notion of throwing equipment changing as a gameplay action. Like I said, it's completely unnecessary and there are ways to achieve similar results without actually forcing the player to simultaneously carry different pieces of equipment for the same task.

Unless this game turns into a full feature, real time action RPG where you swing you weapon with every button press and evade hits by actively dodging, "skill" will always be a sign of those who are prepared.

Not necessarily. Real time != strategy. Tactic RPGs have far more depth than this game ever will have. All that's needed is more meaningful choices and better game mechanics. It's laughable that this game insists on throwing multiple targets at one person but doesn't provide the means to fight multiple targets effectively. Such situations reduce to "Multiple mobs? Sleep/bind them. Can't do that? Kite. Can't do that effectively either? Let's exploit the hate system, supertank it!" Rather pathetic.

[Ziero]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Why should abilities alone be the only fall back a job has in a changing situation? Being prepared is a sign of someone who puts effort into the character, and having whatever gear you need for whatever situation you need is the best way to be prepared. In FFXI we have multiple examples of what people can do in a given situation, whether it be planning ahead by using the proper sub, using basic abilities that everyone gets for the proper situation, or having the right gear for the job for whatever the game decides to toss your way. How was the Sam supposed to know his WS would do double damage and rip hate and why should he be punished for being good at his job?

The problem with "simultaneously carrying" gear can be dealt with easily without completely removing the option of "gear" or stat swapping. You're never forced to carry multiple sets, but you shouldn't expect to be as good as someone who makes that extra effort. And that's what gear swaps really are, a sign of people who try that much harder to be as good as they can be. Just giving everyone abilities and single sets of gear won't suddenly make everyone a unique butterfly because they'll still follow the most efficient paths. But requiring people to try harder and get more gear to be able to do better then those who take the path of least resistance will help those who care more stand out more.

And how did player skill turn into strategy? They're two different discussions imo, as someone can be good with strategy but fail at execution, and vice versa.

I get that you don't like gear swapping, it's painfully obvious. A lot of people don't. But that's mainly because of the way it's set up and handled, and not because of the results it produces. People have to put a LOT of thought and effort and time into each and every set of gear they can potentially have, and it does add a layer of depth and discussion to FFXI, because no one set up will ever be the best, and it only takes one new piece of gear to throw the entire system off balance.

I have NEVER seen any other (online) game that allows you to switch gear mind battle in a game. Sure, while you are running about trying to find your next kill, you can. Sit be hind a rock, pull our your dagger, and then sneak up behind the enemy stab them, and continue.

But most of the games that I have seen that can do this are off line. Yea, a few online games do this too, but its just to increase your defense when you level up. You go kill a few things, you level up, buy new armor put it on, and go back out and start killing again, and repeat.

I named two. SWG and PSU. The former allows you to attach weapons and clothes to your hot bar and equip them at the press of a button, so I could switch from a Blaster rifle for long range, a fast pistol for mid range or whip out an axe up close. All while fighting and moving mid combat. Hell, I could even hotlink Speederbikes and drive off from a losing battle if I wanted. The latter was built with a system that specifically focused on you switching weapons on the fly. In fact it was the best way to play the game as each weapon had a specific amount of points you could use up to perform your attack before it ran out, and you could just switch to another for more of those super attacks.

[Takelli]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Switching weapons in a battle I don't mind it too much because you will obvisoully carry more than one weapon if you are going into a fight. Bow for ranged, Sword for short range, polearm for mid rane, daggers for when in an inclosed space, Darts, Throwing knives ect. All those you can carry on your self.

Sword on your side, Pole Arm on your back, Bow on your back as well, Daggers in a sheath on your fore arm, darts in a bag on your belt ect.

But the armor thing I just hate, unless you are out of battle. It doesn't matter all that much when you are out side of battle.

[Sekighara]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

So Armando I guess you don't believe in bring powders and oils to places where there unlikely be a mob that you need to evade. You should deal because your class doesn't have the spells or abilites. And tactical rpgs are always going to be less complicated then a MMORPG.

In tactical rpgs everything is set, it is a system that can easily broken down. It is very rare for a misison in a tactical rpg to be different because everything will always act the same. The AI in tacticals are no where near supreme and are all lacking the ability to judge best way of battle. Case in point in Front mission, closest target with highest hit chance, and then if multiple unit with most overall damage. This is a flaw because that include target that have no weapons once so ever and they are getting blasted from behind. Disgaea has the jump the healer method even if it means going through every and i mean every other unit to get to it. Cover is rarely used, stats are rarely varied and the most dynamic things that are accessable are height and direction being faced. In a MMORPG any major battle is given a limiter to stop them from easily wiping the floor with any and everyone. There is not a tank in existance that even with all the tools could be sole responsible for tanking Odin if he could use any more randomly with no signs. To beat him would be luck because there is just as good enough chance for him to AOE as his first move as his last. So comparing the two game types is useless, because action adventure setting allows for the most strategy and the difficult settings and objectives.

Getting to the point gear swapping is bad how I am really not getting it? I do not like the idea of min maxing because I think cover a weak point is just as good as strengthing a strong point and neither do I like the idea of swapping whole armor sets for a tp move. But people do what they like and that doesn't bother me and neither does swapping. Ah they are blinking!!!! So mobs litterally pop into existance they do not hatch or become born. Then when they are out on the field they do not hunt,graze, or harvest. Niether do they mine or lay in wait to jump passing players. So forgive me if the blinking doesn't bother me or that realistic points fail into the comparsion that you can't draw in a goblin with something shiny, or a grab juice when it has been walking around the dunes all day and then the party attacks it. Or lure a doom scorpion around with raw flesh, to an open posistion you can attack it safely.

But Armando I do agree with you exactly about carrying other pieces around for one purpose being the norm is not good. Hectacomb has slow on it, as a drk I don't like being slow it is beating a dead horse. But it is a great ws piece so what will I do with out it!! Me personally I am going to find something else I can carry around and wear mostly because I don't want to have a big negative like that. When I get an Armada body I will wear that around alot on my drk as well as a ceb mantle and a few other choice pieces because I want to have 500 atk base before self buffs, food, merits and bard songs. Now the abyss cap is epic but I plan on focusing on DOT with scythe to see if I like it better then wsing builds but that is just how I want play. If a player chooses to carry around all kinds of piece then that is him and as long as it is not forced I won't care. Although it does seem like the Snow gorget, etc. are meant for swapping.

[Kailea]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

So Armando I guess you don't believe in bring powders and oils to places where there unlikely be a mob that you need to evade. You should deal because your class doesn't have the spells or abilites. And tactical rpgs are always going to be less complicated then a MMORPG.

dont twist his words -.- thats just stupid.... I agree with his, and you further down your post, that it becoming the norm is bad. Gear swapping is ok, if done in moderation and or limits. But what FFXI does is way overboard.. for example, to get the most out of my healing breath on DRG, I have a macro that changes between 2 different helmets, just to get the max power and usability of healing breath

[Sekighara]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

There was no twisting that was more of a verbal jujutsu throw. Using ones own point with different varibles and the presenting an unsatisfactory outcome even to themselves.

But Kailea would you use a helm that combined a slightly lesser version of stat in replace of both so you wouldn't need to swap? Or would you keep your setup to maxmize the minimum effect of healing breath and dmg? Because for instance the HQ staffs are better then any other even though some staffs have abilities of the staffs to a lesser degree allowing elimination of carry everyone of the staffs. But because they don't give the highest they scrape the need to go after the newer staffs. It seems the more I think about the system supports swapping.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

The problem with "simultaneously carrying" gear can be dealt with easily without completely removing the option of "gear" or stat swapping. You're never forced to carry multiple sets, but you shouldn't expect to be as good as someone who makes that extra effort. And that's what gear swaps really are, a sign of people who try that much harder to be as good as they can be. Just giving everyone abilities and single sets of gear won't suddenly make everyone a unique butterfly because they'll still follow the most efficient paths. But requiring people to try harder and get more gear to be able to do better then those who take the path of least resistance will help those who care more stand out more.

The problem with this is we wind up right back at square one: you swap or be gimped.

I shouldn't be punished just because the effort I put in to crafting a well-balanced armor set apparently doesn't count as "effort," in contrast to the guy who just hops on the bandwagon of having different gear for each individual action because it was deemed as more effective.

[Kaziel0]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

Because for instance the HQ staffs are better then any other even though some staffs have abilities of the staffs to a lesser degree allowing elimination of carry everyone of the staffs. But because they don't give the highest they scrape the need to go after the newer staffs.

Referencing the HQ staves brings up a related point to gear swapping that I have: Lack of progression in gear. By looking at specific roles of certain gear instead of a more balanced approach, you find gear being used much longer than it might otherwise be. HQ staves are a stellar example of this... As a caster RDM, when you hit 51 and upgrade to the Elemental Staves, you've pretty much just gotten your last weapon upgrade, except for upgrading to HQ Elemental Staves. That's 24 levels with nothing better. The Peacock Charm is even worse. Assuming you are going for ACC in your neck (not unreasonable with a whopping +10 ACC), you can first equip the PCC at level 33, and there's not an upgrade to it for a stunning 41 levels, until you can get the Ancient Torque (assuming you can get/afford it).

There's something to be said to gaining access to new better gear as you gain more levels, and it's kinda depressing when you reach about 2/3rds to max level and suddenly you have the or one of the best in slot item(s) for either a given role or in the HQ staves case, for every spell one would cast.

[Armando]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

There was no twisting that was more of a verbal jujutsu throw. Using ones own point with different varibles and the presenting an unsatisfactory outcome even to themselves.

Which is basically a straw man, because I'm not opposed to being prepared, just to being able to radically alter your stats on the fly through equipment. Change the variables and the point loses meaning and you're basically disproving something that was never said, but making it look like you disproved my point.

A bit busy to post a longer reply right now. At the same time it might be better that way; the thread's been derailed pretty severely and it's becoming pretty apparent that we won't be reaching a middle ground any time soon. Maybe we should just agree to disagree.

[Kailea]

Re: The *ahem* OFFICIAL "FINAL FANTASY XIV Online" Thread of Ultimate Anticipation!

But Kailea would you use a helm that combined a slightly lesser version of stat in replace of both so you wouldn't need to swap? Or would you keep your setup to maxmize the minimum effect of healing breath and dmg?

I would most likely switch, then I could sell the one helm I have (its not EX) and place the other in Mog house storage, and free up a slot in my bag.

but yeah I would agree with Armando here, there are going to be people that like gear swap, and people who don't, and that wont change. Will FFXIV have it? we don't know yet, do I hope they do? no