New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

[Sabaron]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

Thank you. Quoting you and posting on my ls forums. I'm tired of our one whm subbing sch and insisting on using Sub. Then she doesn't use it all the time either and she expects me to mind read when she's not using it so I can refresh. "You know I've been without refresh for quite a while." /stab /stab /stab I'd like to say "You know you've been without brains for even longer." Let's see I've been busy hasting, curing (cause you suck at it), refreshing, sleeping, debuffing, buffing pt (cause again you suck), etc. I'll add watching every move you make to the list asap!

I don't refresh WHM/SCH by default unless they specifically ask me to. I assume at all times that they are sublimating, and I really don't care if they complain or not. WHM/SCH is the "standard" combination now, though I think I like WHM/PUP (Soother) a little better if there's a RDM in the same party b/c the automaton has essentially limitless MP and automatically casts Cure III as long as it's engaged. The drawback there being that it rests when the master rests but it's a nice safety net since the maton primarily cures the target with mob focus.

Speaking of WHM/PUP...

What do you guys think of this unconventional build?

This is the puppets behavior (in general): Soulsoother Head.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

No offense to RDM, but you should learn to ask instead of just waiting to be told by a SCH or /SCH if they want your help.

Same goes for SCHs, ask for refresh if you need it, don't assume its a given since you have an ability that cancels it out.

Its really not that hard to communicate.

No assumptions, just ask.

And UNLESS that SCH has relic body (which isn't practical to use in Dark Arts), Sublimation is not better than refresh. Sublimation before then is only better than refresh when there isn't any Refresh to be had.

That aside, I think the community's knowledge of SCH is pretty poor. Being a healer is much more than just curing for HP, even when it comes to being a WHM or RDM. Healing for more HP does not make any job a better healer just like nuking for big damage doesn't make you the best nuker. "Cures for most HP" was always the weakest rationale for what made the best healer, even before SCH was added to the game.

The best healer and the best nuker are the ones that have endurance and the smarts to make thier MP last in addition to getting it back quickly. If it was simply a matter of who cures for the most HP, all WHMs would be Elvaan and loaded up to the brim with gear that had Cure Potency and HP to MP convert gear. Part of what makes a good WHM is making efficient use of MP, helping enfeeble the mob where practical, they'll buff allies and now playing a role in crowd control as needed. These are things that help increase party effectiveness and reduce MP spent on curing.

[Vyuru]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

I think in theory Whm/Pup is brilliant, would like to see it in action.

[L boogie]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

The best healer and the best nuker are the ones that have endurance and the smarts to make thier MP last in addition to getting it back quickly. If it was simply a matter of who cures for the most HP, all WHMs would be Elvaan and loaded up to the brim with gear that had Cure Potency and HP to MP convert gear. Part of what makes a good WHM is making efficient use of MP, helping enfeeble the mob where practical, they'll buff allies and now playing a role in crowd control as needed. These are things that help increase party effectiveness and reduce MP spent on curing.

I could'nt agree more.

Its funny because as a WHM, i use all my spells efficiently when a RDM isnt present such as Paralyze, Slow, and Silence, and get flamed for it in my party. However what some players dont understand, no what some incompetent DDs dont understand is how much of a difference a simple spell such as Slow can make. As a 75WHM/37SCH, between Light Arts (%based), Enfeebling Torque (+7), Enfeebling Earring (+3), AF Body (+10), Relic Hands (+15), and HQ staffs thats appropiate for each spell and i must say i enfeeble just as well as a RDM can, not better of course, but its helpful when "<t> starts casting Firaga III" and everyone is going nuts lol.

/SCH optimizes my healing/support capabilities, especially when magic based mobs are present. Unless a RNG, or WAR, or DRG is purposely trying to show off their epeens and "accidentally" take hate than i usually burn my MP faster than usual, but if a party is doing what they are supposed to i dont go below 700MP with Dark Arts, Dark Torque, Dark Earring, Pluto's Staff, and Errant Houppelande and Aspir for about 150MP, and having Sublimation do its thing in case something goes wrong lol

I even have a Repose set for those tight situations, or when a BLM, or RDM isnt present.

I do hope SE gives us about 3-4 more Gobbie Bags in the next update, i carry way to much for my own good lol. At about 67/70 in just gear. I am hoping we just hit an even 100 slots.

Anyways...the way i see it is...I am a WHM dammit, i aint no zombie stuck on the Cure V macro, let me take care of my damn party!

[Sabaron]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

No offense to RDM, but you should learn to ask instead of just waiting to be told by a SCH or /SCH if they want your help.

Same goes for SCHs, ask for refresh if you need it, don't assume its a given since you have an ability that cancels it out.

Its really not that hard to communicate.

No assumptions, just ask.

I'm a Ventrillo junkie. If you're not on vent, you might think I'm anti-social.

I do text chat but in certain instances it's impractical or inconvenient to have to be constantly "communicating" with people with my primary input device. In these instances, having a good assumption is useful. I can't see a SCH or /SCH's current buff list so I don't know when they're sublimating. Therefore, it will save me both MP and time if the SCH asks for Refresh rather than me having to ask them if they want one every 150 seconds. Of course, if a SCH tells me "I'm not using Sublimation", I'll certainly toss them into permanent rotation.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

No offense to RDM, but you should learn to ask instead of just waiting to be told by a SCH or /SCH if they want your help.

Same goes for SCHs, ask for refresh if you need it, don't assume its a given since you have an ability that cancels it out.

Its really not that hard to communicate.

No assumptions, just ask.

Not when they are using Sub and then in the middle of everything they decide to stop. Then it is up to THEM to communicate to ME they desire refresh and not in an ignorant condescending manner as this whm did. A simple /t "I've stopped Sub could you give me refresh now please?" would be fine. I'm busy and I don't have time for people that decide to change their tactics mid fight and don't communicate in a reasonable manner. She got that one in but the next time I'll put her on her ass if she does it again.

[Firewind]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

And UNLESS that SCH has relic body (which isn't practical to use in Dark Arts), Sublimation is not better than refresh. Sublimation before then is only better than refresh when there isn't any Refresh to be had.

Idling in a Noble's Tunic while sublimation is on does give a WHM/SCH the same overall MP regen as refresh would. Then also factor in the MP savings from Light/Dark Arts and Penury/Parsimony.

Choosing between the two is situational for the WHM to be honest. if I know I'm going to be relying on myself for MP regen then I'll be going for SCH every time if I know I'm going to be in a party where there is a ton of refresh (RDM+COR = fun) then I'll probably just end up subbing SMN or something instead to stack Auto Refresh, Sanction and my Noble's Tunic with whatever refresh the buffers are tossing at me.

[Truece]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

Idling in a Noble's Tunic while sublimation is on does give a WHM/SCH the same overall MP regen as refresh would. Then also factor in the MP savings from Light/Dark Arts and Penury/Parsimony.

I think your logic is a bit flawed here. Idling in a Nobles Tunic/Cleric's Briault does the same thing for refresh as it does for sublimation. So, unless you always take off your auto-refresh body piece whenever you've got a refresh on, refresh will always be a better method of MP recovery for /SCH. Light/Dark arts and Penury/Parsimony are also independent of refresh; they work equally well whether you've got refresh or sublimation up.

Choosing between the two is situational for the WHM to be honest. if I know I'm going to be relying on myself for MP regen then I'll be going for SCH every time if I know I'm going to be in a party where there is a ton of refresh (RDM+COR = fun) then I'll probably just end up subbing SMN or something instead to stack Auto Refresh, Sanction and my Noble's Tunic with whatever refresh the buffers are tossing at me.

Even with multiple forms of refresh, /SCH still comes out ahead. Auto-refresh from /SMN gives you 20 MP/minute. Penury gives you 50% MP savings every minute (best-case). So long as you stack Penury with a spell costing 40 MP or more (Which is most of the spells cast by WHMs, except for bar- or -na spells) you're already matching the MP 'recovery' of /SMN. Now, add into that the fact that all of your spells (when cast in the matching arts) cost an additional 10% less and you get Conserve MP; /SCH starts to pull ahead. If there are aspirable mobs, then /SCH becomes the clear winner as Dark Arts + Aspir can yeild some very nice returns.

When it comes down to it, sublimation is just the icing on the cake.

[Saren]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

Sorry but /smn blows now. The ONLY time I use it anymore is if I'm going to limbus, we need a carby pull and I do my best to get out of it if I can because I hate the loss of light arts and penury, my mp endurance is just not as good without /sch.

I totally agree with everything Truece said to start with, sublimation is the icing on the cake and to be honest I'll come /sch by choice even if there is a rdm in my party refreshing me because it's just that much better.

Light arts is awsome both for the mp cost reduction and the fast cast (it shortens your haste cycle and increases your chance to rest by a small but nice amount), penury (It takes quite a long time for /smn autorefresh to compensate for missing out on half cost reraise 3, protectra and shellra) not to mention the fact that if you are fighting something aspirable (e.g mamool Ja mages) then you can get a decent amount on an aspir with mediocre gear.

It's not like you don't still get sanction refresh and your nobles when you are subbing sch so I just don't get why people /smn anymore, it's pants.

[Firewind]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

I think your logic is a bit flawed here. Idling in a Nobles Tunic/Cleric's Briault does the same thing for refresh as it does for sublimation. So, unless you always take off your auto-refresh body piece whenever you've got a refresh on, refresh will always be a better method of MP recovery for /SCH. Light/Dark arts and Penury/Parsimony are also independent of refresh; they work equally well whetheryou've got refresh or sublimation up.

All I was saying was that Noble's+Sublimation gives back the equivalent of 3MP/tick at any time. Stacking your Noble's with Refresh will of course be better. If I'm the only MP user in the party then I'll happily take that extra 20MP/min. If there are a lot of people in the group for the RDM to refresh I will be hitting Sublimation and WILL be telling them what I'm doing

Even with multiple forms of refresh, /SCH still comes out ahead. Auto-refresh from /SMN gives you 20 MP/minute. Penury gives you 50% MP savings every minute (best-case). So long as you stack Penury with a spell costing 40 MP or more (Which is most of the spells cast by WHMs, except for bar- or -na spells) you're already matching the MP 'recovery' of /SMN. Now, add into that the fact that all of your spells (when cast in the matching arts) cost an additional 10% less and you get Conserve MP; /SCH starts to pull ahead. If there are aspirable mobs, then /SCH becomes the clear winner as Dark Arts + Aspir can yeild some very nice returns.

When it comes down to it, sublimation is just the icing on the cake.

Like I said, /SMN is very useful if you have multiple forms of refresh stacked on you. SCH is by far the best all round sub for WHMs but that doesn't make other subs useless, except BLM. SMN and BLM are now both very situational now since the main WHM subs are SCH for general use, NIN for soloing and meleeing and THF or farming. I think the only reason I use /BLM now is for Warp and maybe MAB II for magic bursting Banish III off light skillchains but that situation is rare.

What /SMN IS useful for is when you have Shellra V. Shining Ruby adds +10% to Def and MDef and it stacks with Protect and Shell. A fully merited Shellra will knock off somehting like 25% of all magical damage and Shining Ruby will put something like an extra 10% on top of that, then add in your barspells. If you're fighting mobs that like to use a lot of powerful magic and you don't have Stun (Soulflayers and Imps first spring to mind) /SMN is a very, very useful subjob for WHM

[Truece]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

Like I said, /SMN is very useful if you have multiple forms of refresh stacked on you.

This is exactly what I wanted to dispute. Even with multiple forms of refresh on you, /SCH is still more useful than /SMN.

[Firewind]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

This is exactly what I wanted to dispute. Even with multiple forms of refresh on you, /SCH is still more useful than /SMN.

Ah sorry about that, I misread your intention with that one. I go generally agree with what you were saying in the post, I was mainly just putting /SMN out there as another viable option of getting MP back when multiple forms of refresh are getting stacked on you.

A lot of WHMs don't use Penury and Celerity (This strat is awesome for Repose mecros and getting Haste cycles going quickly) which is a shame really because being able to cut the cost of expesive spells in half every couple of minutes is pretty useful.

What I'm mainly trying to say is /SCH is better but /SMN is there as an option if you want to use that. I was just trying to think of a situation where /SMN would have more of a practical use instead of just being there for Auto-Refresh (which is still nice Pre-70)

And I've managed to burst DA+Aspir off a Darkness SC before. The results were wow, just wow.

[Truece]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

What I'm mainly trying to say is /SCH is better but /SMN is there as an option if you want to use that. I was just trying to think of a situation where /SMN would have more of a practical use instead of just being there for Auto-Refresh (which is still nice Pre-70)

And I've managed to burst DA+Aspir off a Darkness SC before. The results were wow, just wow.

I hadn't thought of the added bonus of shining ruby on top of fully-merited Protectra/Shellra V. That could be situationally useful.

I've been trying to think of situational uses for /SMN, but each time I think of a scenario, I find myself thinking that /SCH would still be the better subjob choice. The flat 10% MP savings and cast/recast are just too difficult to pass up.

[Sabaron]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

...I'll probably just end up subbing SMN or something instead to stack Auto Refresh...

As a subjob, the 1/tick Auto-refresh is not an appetizing reason to choose /SMN.

For all intents and purposes, /SMN is inferior to /SCH even if you have RDM Refresh.

With light arts active, you save 10% on each spell cast and Penury every two minutes for a 50% savings on a single spell. We'll assume that you'll use your Penury charge for a Cure V every time it comes available which saves you 67MP every 120 seconds or 67/2=33.5mp per minute.

1mp/tick Auto-refresh is worth 60/3=20mp per minute.

Therefore, the Penury Charge on a Cure V alone used when it becomes available is worth more than /SMN's Autorefresh, but....

Let's assume that you're in a Tank party with a RDM Refresher and a BRD refresher (PLD, PLD, RDM, BRD, WHM, WHM). This means you're getting 7/tick basic refresh from Nobles+Ballad*2+Refresh and you can't use sublimation. Tank party WHMs do a lot of healing. Each minute, you will get 60/3*7 = 140mp, enough to cast Cure V one time with 5 spare MP left over. We'll also say that you're Hasting your PLD every 3 minutes (40/3=13mp per minute). You're spending 153 mp every minute. Light arts saves you 153 * 0.1 = 15.3mp per minute and Penury is saving you 33.5mp per minute for a total of 33.5+15.3 = 48.8mp per minute. Light arts also gives you 10% Fast Cast for your spells (Regen casts haven't been factored in).

If you're casting more than the above scenario (i.e. using enough MP that you occassionally have to rest), then the savings is even greater.

/SMN is no longer a good choice for WHM sub jobs unless you need the pet as a target marker, aggro mitigator, or sneaky puller.

To seal the deal, you get usable Black Magic spells: Aspir, Dispel, Sleep (a good secondary sleep for when Repose fails you), and Drain.

The only time when Auto-refresh will be better is when you're not putting out enough healing to warrant use of the Penury charge when it comes available (or are using it on a lesser spell) in which case there's no significant need for advanced curing and in those cases a BRD/WHM could probably heal for you. In those cases, remember that my Bardly Haste is better than yours.

[Karinya]

Re: New Age Healer Question. Whm Vs Sch?

@Truece, Sabaron: You are both assuming no use of Aerial Armor or Shining Ruby, which I think honestly are the only case for WHM/SMN anymore, because as you point out, *for casting existing WHM spells* /SCH is clearly superior.

Anyway, this thread just got shaken up by a bunch of improvements to WHM announced for the next update. WHMs get their own stance system (which will probably stack with LA/DA, there's no indication to the contrary), a new AoE heal, stoneskin effect added to cures in one stance, cheaper and shorter casting time Raises and Reraises, a spell that grants Subtle Blow to party members in range, Esuna (which is AoE), and more.

Looks like nobody else has posted a thread on it yet, so I'm going to do that now. Should show up soon.