at low levels

[Ahi_Khali]

Re: at low levels

WHM is a job that everyone wants in their party because it means that the tanks actually stay alive and everyone gets more exp as a result. As a 31WHM I can't even look at Jeuno without having to use /anon because of the number of invites you will get. I get the same thing with BRD too. here are a few useful things that I have learned that will make your life easier:

1) Try to conserve your MP. At low levels it's hard to do as only a few cures will burn through your MP but remember that you don't have to use spells on everyone. Tanks (at this level it's anyone who can voke) should get curing priority because they will take most of the damage. You also only need to cast protect on the melee fighers, same with bar-spells. Mages will never need such things are you will be standing as far back as possible with the other mages.

2) Take up a craft. Fishing Moat Carps, farming bees for Honey and Beehive Chips and Killing Crawlers for Silk Threads are how low level WHMs make money fast. While WHM is very cheap gear-wise (as will be touched on later) scrolls will cost a lot when you hit the 30's. Honey, Beehive Chips and Silk threads are all quite uncommon drops but fishing is always reliable so they make an excellent way to add to your income. Taking up Clothcraft (stack of grass cloth goes for up to 4k on Kujata), Smithing (Bronze Ingots sell for 3-4K on Kujata) and/or Leathercraft (stack of Sheep Leather goes for 5-8K on Kujata). You should take a few days exping then a few days dedicated to making money. So do and you will never have to worry about money until you need those 500k Elemental Staves.

3) Don't worry about gear. White Mages will never be expected to fight so could really go into an exp -party naked pre-29. Save all of your money and only buy clothing that boosts MP and MND.elvaan and galka should priorotise MP gear since thier MND is already excellent, Taru should go for MND gear while Mirthra and Humes can go for either (never use a balanced build since they never work). Only use wands. Staves are not as useful until Lv30 and even then most WHMs I know keep them until Lv51. You can get away with equipping any gear until Lv29 which is when the Seer's Gear is unlocked. Not only does this look awesome but it will easily last you until you can get your AF gear and even then I still see WHMs using it. Try to get the +1 version of the Tunic at least. It costs a LOT (They go for anything from 30-60K on Kujata) but I have never regretted the decision to go for it.

3a) Scrolls on the other hand are expensive. While it's nowhere near as expensive as say BLM or BRD the cost still adds up. You don't have to have every single spell but the majority of spells will see use at some point. The spells you are fine to skip on are Diaga, Banishga, Holy and maybe the Curaga and Shell spells but don't skimp on them! Curaga and Shell do find uses, they are just highly situational spells. I have also been able to get away with not having Silena and Cursna (because people tend to avoid mobs that can use silence and curse), Barpoisona and Barsleepra (Cure heals sleep. being poisoned makes you immune to it). What you should always have are Cure, the elemental Bar-Spells, Regen, protect and the status healing spells at the very least.

4) Don't worry about screwing up. The Dunes is the area where everyone is learning how to play the job they are levelling. An LS friend of mine who has had the game since launch proved that even he can screw up. Nobody expects a new player, especially a mage of any type, to be great at the game. Yes you WILL die more often than anyone else but it happens. It's how everyone learns and everyone is very patient and kind to new players. I had a dunes party drop everything to help me get my Sub Job quest items even though in the time it took to get all of the items we could have hit 21 from 18. Just stick at it and you will find that it is worth it.

5) Don't worry about dying. It happens. Someone will make a mistake, sometimes spells and enfeebs just don't stick. Sometimes that one Goblin Smithy manages to Bomb Toss right away before you can get barfira up (there is a webcomic about that somewhere). Dying happens and while you may feel it is your fault 99.9% of the time it really wasn't. Most of the time if a player causes multiple deaths or a wipe they will fess up and apologise. However I find that 90% of the time deaths in a party are usually accidental rather than someone intentionally doing badly.

5a) Sometimes there are times where you will have to take hate by suing Curaga (avoid at all costs) or dropping a lot of cures. You may well die in the process if you take hate but you should be willing to sacrifice your well being and your life if necessary so that the party can continue fighting.

5b) On a related note do not be afraid to use Benediction. It generates massive amounts of hate and pre-30 it becomes almost impossible to save the WHM but that is part of the job. Like I said before, you should be ready to sacrifice yourself if it means losing some exp instead of the party wiping.

5c) Another note about death. If you have to zone for whatever reason do NOT be the first to leave. usually the tank stays behind to hold off the mob so the party can escape. However you staying behind to keep the tank healed makes this go much more smoothly. Make sure that it's just you and the tank left before running away.

6) One thing I love about being a WHM is that Raise is the single most useful tool of making friends fast. I found a party that had wiped in Qufim, 6 raises, 6 friend requests. While fishing at Knightwell I saw someone about to get killed by linking Gobs. A few cures later I found out that the guy was training SAM for his Lv 75 DRK job and I got someone who is willing to help out with Quests and Missions I would otherwise be unable to do.

Wow, lots of nice information especaily about the whole spell list, and what weapons to use. I have dicided to be a redmage at the moment, just to get some gil, etc..I might even level all my jobs. (whm being last scense thats what I want to be the most.) Then use all the gil that I have earned for the start of the job. But, I will keep that in mind, I played this game like 5 years ago, but I only got to the dunes, and then it was packed to the max. (thats why I asked the question.) Also, I know this is a dumb question but how do you get a airship pass? I have always wandered that. As to the rest of you, THANK YOU I will keep that in mind lol.
______________________________

Well, it may be cynical and defeatist, but it's also a direct result of my experience as a WHM. I actually honestly enjoy playing the job - but whether I form a group of my own or not, PL's will still limit the effectiveness with which I can play my job. I don't know how many times I've asked the PL for the parties I have joined if I could cure a bit more so I could level my healing skill and get flat out turned down. It's sad to me that enfeebling and divine are perpetually capped, when healing - what could proported to be our most important skill - rarely is.

Interestingly, I think PLing is more common on some servers and less on others. Leveling my various jobs as I have the last few months, I can honestly tell you that the majority of the successful parties I've seen were all PL'd. I really wish I could pull some of those out. I honestly long for the days when PL's were rare and player skill was the order of the day.

You're right though. Advice it was not. Defeatism never won any wars.

Also, I can say I dont think I will ever use a PLer in a party to help me, because then that kind of defeats the purpose of me being there doesn't it? o_O

[Deeke]

Re: at low levels

Also, I can say I dont think I will ever use a PLer in a party to help me, because then that kind of defeats the purpose of me being there doesn't it? o_O

Awwww~ ^_^

I sincerely wish you best of luck with that.

[Ellipses]

Re: at low levels

Also, I know this is a dumb question but how do you get a airship pass?

Get Rank 5. You can pay to get one instead, but it's a stupid amount of gil.

[Tomato_Kai]

Re: at low levels

How do you get a airship pass? I have always wandered that. As to the rest of you, THANK YOU I will keep that in mind lol.

Get Rank 5! This actually isn't so bad. I solo'd my way through the missions, all the way to and throuh rank 5. Unlike 1-3, Rank 4 I didn't actually "solo" ... I just sneaked my way through Delkfutt's tower and waited at the NM spawn for a party to show up and help me kill him. I joined up with them, got credit, and continued on. Rank 5 was also easy, simply taking a matter of hours to get, with the exception of the Beadeaux NM's. I had a higher level who was farming in the area help me with that. For actual help on how to do the missiosn, I suggest wiki.ffxiclopedia.org. It's got alot of great info.

Also, I can say I dont think I will ever use a PLer in a party to help me, because then that kind of defeats the purpose of me being there doesn't it? o_O

You're absolutely right. Having a PL indeed does defeat the purpose of having a whm in the party. It is for this very reason that it can be quite difficult for WHM's to get parties.

That is however, by and large not your choice. Unless your party absolutely needs a WHM, and enough that you get to have the authority to tell the PL to "shoo" you're most likely going to have at least one of these in your career. As was stated before, you can alternatively make a party yourself.

[Tokagawa]

Re: at low levels

Someone is always going to be leveling a new job. So there will always be someone in the dunes.

[Silent Howler]

Re: at low levels

Wow, lots of nice information especaily about the whole spell list, and what weapons to use. I have dicided to be a redmage at the moment, just to get some gil, etc..I might even level all my jobs. (whm being last scense thats what I want to be the most.) Then use all the gil that I have earned for the start of the job. But, I will keep that in mind, I played this game like 5 years ago, but I only got to the dunes, and then it was packed to the max. (thats why I asked the question.) Also, I know this is a dumb question but how do you get a airship pass? I have always wandered that. As to the rest of you, THANK YOU I will keep that in mind lol.

Also, nothing wrong with switching around with jobs. I took the advice I read and chose Warrior as my very first starting job. I played around with that for a while, then tried Thief, Monk, Black Mage, Red Mage, White Mage. I enjoyed Monk and that was the first one I took beyond level 10 (stopped at 13...and never looked back at it...) but ended up switching to White Mage because of my desire to help others. I took White Mage up to level 30 and unlocked Summoner, because I was really eager to play that job. I reached level 24 but refused to go any further until I obtained all of the avatars. After a few struggling fights I did a little research on SMN/BLU. While not the greatest job combination, it looked like it would work quite nicely for the solo avatar fights. So then I started Blue Mage, but I had so much fun with it I wanted to keep leveling it, and then next I got Ninja for support job reasons. At some random point I wanted to try out Puppetmaster (specifically after the update that introduced the "white and black mage" frame heads) and then unlocked Dancer as a support job for that. Again at some random point I wanted to try out Bard, But ended up switching to Corsair, which required leveling Ranger first.

Jobs that I have labeled as my main jobs: Puppetmaster, Corsair, and White Mage. The point is, as you can see, I went through a LOT of changes as I progressed through the game. Before I got the game I was mostly interested in Summoner and Ranger. I never imaged myself being a Corsair or Puppetmaster. I still haven't reached 75 yet however, so there's still time for yet even more change, but I think I have played around with enough jobs to get a feel for what I like.

Anyway, don't be afraid to play around, but just make sure you level the appropriate support jobs too.

Also, I can say I dont think I will ever use a PLer in a party to help me, because then that kind of defeats the purpose of me being there doesn't it? o_O

Been there, done that, both as the White Mage and the PL. It's highly likely that you will find yourself in this situation, unless you are so against PLs that you threaten to kick anyone that even mentions bringing one. The strategy most PLs like to use is going overkill on curing, trying to pull hate knowing that the mob can't harm them. The problem with this is that it leaves the White Mage with nothing to do other than enfeebles, and you will notice a slip in your healing magic skill. (Ironically my healing magic recovers after PLing a few times...) If you do happen to find yourself with a PL, try to compromise with them into having the healing role split. In some causes you will be glad to have a PL with, and other times when you will hate them and wish they would leave. It really depends on how the PL handles the situation and whether or not they acknowledge a White Mage being present in the party.

[Firewind]

Re: at low levels

The rest of the post was great, but ignore this sentence. Don't be the WHM the rest of the party is complaining to their LS about. Good impressions go a long way in this game, and so do bad ones.

I said that WHMs could go into a party without armour pre-29. I never said they should or that it was a good idea. I was more or less running around in Lv11 gear until I could use Seer's had receives no complains whatsoever

RE: FIREWING: I disagree with almost everything in firewing's post. Shell and curaga are "situational"? Only cast protect on "melee" jobs? Come now. This is *advice* you're giving? Have you actually played this game? This might have worked in say, Final Fantasy XII (A different game entirely...) but in FFXI, it's another story.

Please, if you're leveling WHM, use a guide for parties. There's a good one here that I highly suggest reading.

Seriously, if you're going to offer advice, please make it at least generally "good" advice.

Do you even play this class? The only time a non-melee class will ever need protect is if they are soloing. If you EVER have to cast Protect on someone who isn't the tank or a melee DD then your party cannot manage hate. I've been in parties where I have had to hit the THF with a quick regen because the 1st voker wasn't co-operating with the THF and PLD so SATA wouldn't work. Result? I spent more time wasting MP healing the THF that should have been used keeping the PLD alive. That resulted in more downtime due to me having to rest which slowed down exp gains. Managing your MP is key. The fact that you cast protect on people who don't need it shows that you don't know how to conserve MP at all. Regen is the single best spell for this. I love partying with PLD/WARs because PLD + Sentinel + Defender + Regen = White Mage Coffee Break. I don't think I've ever needed to cast protect on anyone BUT the PLD if one is in the party.

It is also why NIN/WAR and WAR/NIN are a White Mage's nightmare as you have to babysit them and cast a lot of cures resulting in you taking hate. Although anyone not a THF subbing NIN before 50 is hamstringing themselves and their party and should not have been invited in the first place.

Trust me, if you have to cast protect on mages, Corsairs and Rangers whom should be nowhere near melee range. The only exception to this is BRD as they will need to get close so they can stack songs on the right party members. I would also cast Bar-spells on everyone because some AoE spells, especially in the Jungles tend to have a nasty tendency to just clip you even if you are standing at maximum range.

Curaga is a highly dangerous spell because of how much hate is produces. I have died after dropping a Curaga on a party dropped into critical levels by a Smithy's Bomb Toss. Sure I healed the party but i drew that much hate not even the PLD could get it off me. Curaga is only useful for healing up a party after a battle or waking a sleeping party if there is no one else in the Party with access to any sort of curative spell.

Shell is purely situational because very few parties will deliberately target enemies that can and will cast spells. Black Mage enemies are deadly. Heck even Worms can wipe a party if it's Earthday, silence doesn't stick and Stonega goes off. However if you are just fighting enemies that only use melee attacks shell is just a waste of MP that may well have been the last Cure 2 that would have saved the tank and stopped the party from wiping.

If you feel the need to attack me for what YOU believe is bad advice then please keep it to yourself, you only make yourself look bad by doing so.

And on the subject of PLs. I have been in PL'd parties and I've PL'd low level dunes parties myself. You only need to put up with PL's from 12-20. I have never seen a PL in a full Qufim, Jungles or Garliage Citadel party. I have seen one in a party where it was just the 4 of us killing Mandies in Yhoator. Well until we found out that the 4 of us (me, WHM/BLM, SCH/BLM, NIN/WAR, PUP/WAR with mage frame) could chain Furriers at a much faster rate at 200exp a pop so the PL wasn't needed.

Some notes on healing in the Dunes:

- A single White Mage can cope fine main healing a Dunes party as long as the party co-operates and lets him/her rest

- Not just a WHM can main heal. SCH and RDM can main heal and DNC can at 15

- BLM with WHM subbed can backup heal very well as can BRD/WHM thanks to Paeon (I know it's spelt wrong but at 2am I can't be bothered) SMN/WHM has a nice enough MP pool to even main heal

- A BLU/WHM will have so many healing tools a WHM will turn green with envy.

- So can PLD but the PLD should save his/her cures to keep hate.

- So to summerise pairing a WHM with any of the following: RDM/anything, SCH/anything, DNC (after 15), BLM/WHM, BRD/WHM, SMN/WHM, BLU/WHM means that a PL will NEVER be needed for a Dunes party. If you can find one of these classes to party with then all your healing needs are fulfilled.

- Most melee classes can tank in the dunes by subbing WAR. Ask them to do it. While the tanking classes won't have access to many hate management spells you can never have too many people who can voke in the dunes. So you have yourself s WHM, someone with access to Cure and the Mp to backup heal and classes that can tank for the dunes I find this a very effective party setup for the dunes:

Tank1 (Usually a traditional tank like WAR or PLD)
Tank2 (Usually a melee class that can sub WAR. Quite often some idiot going WAR/NIN pre-50, please don't invite these people if only encourages them to pick gimp subjobs.)
Damage Dealer/Puller (Usually a melee class that can equip a bow like SAM, DRK or THF)
WHM (For obvious reasons although a SCH or RDM can do the job just as well at this level)
BLM (THE damage dealer at this level. Only SAM and maybe RDM usind it's 2Hr can cause as much damage and 70-90 damage a nuke at this level is great for fast exp. I've gotten total damage up to 200+ with a good skillchain)
Backup Healer/Support (If the BLM has WHM subbed then try to get a BRD, RDM or COR. if not then try to get something like a DNC or BLU than can help out by backup healing.)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: at low levels

I said that WHMs could go into a party without armour pre-29. I never said they should or that it was a good idea. I was more or less running around in Lv11 gear until I could use Seer's had receives no complains whatsoever

Well, I tend to make fun of badly geared people on LS chat instead of party chat, but that's just me. Still, just because people have complaints about you, it doesn't mean they'd voice them (directly).

Do you even play this class? The only time a non-melee class will ever need protect is if they are soloing. If you EVER have to cast Protect on someone who isn't the tank or a melee DD then your party cannot manage hate.

It costs the same amount of MP to Protectra three people or six. May help the BLM lives through three hits instead of getting K.O.'ed, so might as well.

I don't think I've ever needed to cast protect on anyone BUT the PLD if one is in the party.

Only NIN really need Protect; everyone else should get Protectra. The reason is after Lv.37, they often have to cancel Copy Image from Utusemi: Ni in order to recast Utusemi: Ichi. However, it's very easy to accidentally cancel Protect by mistaken while doing that. So, often have to reapply singular Protect from the back line.

Other than that, Protect is nearly an optional spell; Protectra, is not.

It is also why NIN/WAR and WAR/NIN are a White Mage's nightmare as you have to babysit them and cast a lot of cures resulting in you taking hate.

Bad tanks is what cause WHM to get hit. (That, and stupid WHMs.) NIN/WAR and even WAR/NIN can be a good tank, from my experience as RDM75 (lot's of main healing) and PLD75 (lot's of tanking). At lower levels, NIN/WAR and WAR/NIN make better co-tanks than singular tanks.

Although anyone not a THF subbing NIN before 50 is hamstringing themselves and their party and should not have been invited in the first place.

You're wrong.

While there's little utility to /NIN at Dunes level beyond raising DoT damage, as soon as Lv.24, it can be useful--even vital--thanks to Utsusemi: Ichi.

Lv.24-73, WAR/NIN x2 can co-tank and DD at the same time, saving a lot of curing MP over just one WAR tank.

In mid Lv.30's, WAR/NIN as a DD can do enough damage to justify Utsusemi, allowing it to go over the threshold set by the tank without taking on tons of damage. WAR/NIN can also do first Provoke, setting up SATA without getting beat up for it (after Lv.24).

Any front line job with /NIN can be used by THF to close SATA mid fight, if no second provoker is available. It should be obvious that if any DD can output enough to get hit on a regular basis, /NIN for Utsusemi can be justified.

Curaga is a highly dangerous spell because of how much hate is produces. I have died after dropping a Curaga on a party dropped into critical levels by a Smithy's Bomb Toss. Sure I healed the party but i drew that much hate not even the PLD could get it off me. Curaga is only useful for healing up a party after a battle or waking a sleeping party if there is no one else in the Party with access to any sort of curative spell.

Generally speaking, if a tank or other party members can't pry a monster off of you three hits after using Curaga, the party is doing it wrong or is having some very bad luck with AoE attacks. Most WHMs should be able to live through three hits, if they had full HP to begin with.

It's worth noting the enmity from Curaga decreases as the party members' HP grow with level; at higher levels, healers routinely toss it out without a second thought. (I certainly don't recall much trouble with Curaga at Lv.40, which isn't all that high of a level.) Even at the lower levels, however, if the party is in dire need, cast it--it's what a healer is supposed to do.

Shell is purely situational because very few parties will deliberately target enemies that can and will cast spells. Black Mage enemies are deadly. Heck even Worms can wipe a party if it's Earthday, silence doesn't stick and Stonega goes off. However if you are just fighting enemies that only use melee attacks shell is just a waste of MP that may well have been the last Cure 2 that would have saved the tank and stopped the party from wiping.

Plenty of enemies can inflict "magical" type damage; lizards, crabs, goblin, gigas, crawlers, flies, worms, (and probably pugils) are just a few you can encounter at lower levels. (Probably don't need Shellra for beetles, triple bats, mandragoras, and dhalmels, though.)

In any case, MP flow should be good enough that you can do one Shellra every 30 minutes. If not, stop the party for a minute to get both Protectra and Shellra on, and rest for MP for a bit. Unless you're sure the enemies you face do not cause any magic damage, you might as well put up Shellra.

If you feel the need to attack me for what YOU believe is bad advice then please keep it to yourself, you only make yourself look bad by doing so.

So combative. You should play a DD instead of a healer.

- A BLU/WHM will have so many healing tools a WHM will turn green with envy.

BLU/WHM has two more MP efficient cure spells, one curaga spell, and a stoneskin-ga which it can claim as advantages over WHM. If so desired, WHM/BLU can access one of BLU's cure spell (Wild Carrot) and its curaga (Healing Breeze), by the way.

Otherwise, BLU/WHM has slower access to -na and erase, no Stona, no Regen II/III, no Protectra or Shellra III/IV/V, no Haste (for party members), and no Flash until Lv.74.

- Most melee classes can tank in the dunes by subbing WAR. Ask them to do it. While the tanking classes won't have access to many hate management spells you can never have too many people who can voke in the dunes.

Sure, a decently geared melee can take a few hits. No problem.

Now, which dark god(s) do I have to sacrifice a cow or sheep to in order to ensure I get melees with decent gears in a Valkrum Dunes party next time I have have to go through there? How the heck do I avoid the plague of WAR18-with-Lv.7-leather-set people there!?

[Firewind]

Re: at low levels

Well, I tend to make fun of badly geared people on LS chat instead of party chat, but that's just me. Still, just because people have complaints about you, it doesn't mean they'd voice them (directly).

The only armour from 10-29 that is even remotely useful to a WHM would be the Zealot and Devotee's Mitts and the Windurstian Slops. There is a lot of other mage gear but it benefits BLM, RDM and SCH much, much more. The Baron's Gear (Which seems geared more for RDMs) or Mage's Gear (You lose the head slot and 20+ MP from a Silver Hairpin and gain no useful stats). What is there that realy benefits WHM before Seer's? A new player should really just save thier money and get Seer's +1 when they get to 29.

Personally I would rather party with someone who knows how to play their class but has bad gear than someone who is bad but has has pretty, shiny gear. ^_^

It costs the same amount of MP to Protectra three people or six. May help the BLM lives through three hits instead of getting K.O.'ed, so might as well.

Only NIN really need Protect; everyone else should get Protectra. The reason is after Lv.37, they often have to cancel Copy Image from Utusemi: Ni in order to recast Utusemi: Ichi. However, it's very easy to accidentally cancel Protect by mistaken while doing that. So, often have to reapply singular Protect from the back line.

Other than that, Protect is nearly an optional spell; Protectra, is not.

The BLM shouldn't be taking hate anyway. I know that accidents do happen but isn't it usually partially their fault that hate went there in the first place? When playing BLM I always time my nukes to be in time with the voke timer for that very reason ^_^

Regardless my whole point wasn't to tell people that it's all right to skimp on protecting the party. It's just it's only really necessary to keep it up on the front lines at all times. At dunes levels which is the levels the topic creator as at (Dunes Level), when given the choice between refreshing protectra and healing the tank that MP may well have been the last cure spell that could have saved the tank.

[quote"IfritnoItazura"]Bad tanks is what cause WHM to get hit. (That, and stupid WHMs.) NIN/WAR and even WAR/NIN can be a good tank, from my experience as RDM75 (lot's of main healing) and PLD75 (lot's of tanking). At lower levels, NIN/WAR and WAR/NIN make better co-tanks than singular tanks.

You're wrong.

While there's little utility to /NIN at Dunes level beyond raising DoT damage, as soon as Lv.24, it can be useful--even vital--thanks to Utsusemi: Ichi.

Lv.24-73, WAR/NIN x2 can co-tank and DD at the same time, saving a lot of curing MP over just one WAR tank.

In mid Lv.30's, WAR/NIN as a DD can do enough damage to justify Utsusemi, allowing it to go over the threshold set by the tank without taking on tons of damage. WAR/NIN can also do first Provoke, setting up SATA without getting beat up for it (after Lv.24).

Any front line job with /NIN can be used by THF to close SATA mid fight, if no second provoker is available. It should be obvious that if any DD can output enough to get hit on a regular basis, /NIN for Utsusemi can be justified.[/quote]

Pre-24 there is no point at in subbing NIN at all due to lack of shadows. however at 25 you will be hitting the Jungles where you will be fighting Mandies. Utusemi: Ichi is near useless for tanking against MNK type enemies because hits come so often (2 of the 3 shadows will be gones in one attack) AND you will have no access to the full elemental wheel. When you hit 32 you will be at Garliage Citadel and will have access to the Elemental Wheel and will be able to manage hate must more effectively but Utisemi: Ichi isn't all that useful when tanking against bats either and having no RDM makes fighting Beetles a pain.

It's not really until 37NIN that they really start to shine when Utusemi: Ni becomes available but what is available for a NIN sub until then?

As a White Mage I depend on the tank to keep me alive so that I can keep them alive. Blink Tanks are not good at this before. I have men over 30 WAR/NIN and NIN/WAR players in parties. Guess how many actually did thier job properly? One. A single NIN/WAR. Why? he actually counter shadows and had macros warning the party when Utusemi was about to drop or he had to recast. He also actually USED the elemental wheel and to great effect. I never once took hate even when I started dropping Cure 3's all over the place just to see if I could take hate. The other 29 Blink Tanks I have partied with? I only had to physically Blink and thier HP was gone and hate is on the BLM or THF. That is 2 people who now need healing. When I heal then I usually take hate and lose a chunk of my own health and I can't cure again without risking drawing hate again. Not even DRKs lose thier HP has fast as a blink tank.

I'm not denying that Blink Tanks aren't useful at higher levels which is when you will get Utusemi: Ni with NIN subbed. Having Ichi and Ni means that shadows will rarely wear off if the NIN is good. However considering the Main Tank and WHM have to live a virtually symbiotic relationship in a party I would much rather have a more reliable class such as a PLD/WAR or even PUP/WAR as a tank rather than someone who, as soon a shadows go down could lose their HP at such a stupidly fast rate you only have to blink and the tank is dead. It's even worse when it makes the tank too scared to voke if I take hate from healing them.

I'm trying not to hate on Blink Tanks but from my personal experience you only have an 1 in 30 chance of actually getting a good one ^_^;;

Generally speaking, if a tank or other party members can't pry a monster off of you three hits after using Curaga, the party is doing it wrong or is having some very bad luck with AoE attacks. Most WHMs should be able to live through three hits, if they had full HP to begin with.

It's worth noting the enmity from Curaga decreases as the party members' HP grow with level; at higher levels, healers routinely toss it out without a second thought. (I certainly don't recall much trouble with Curaga at Lv.40, which isn't all that high of a level.) Even at the lower levels, however, if the party is in dire need, cast it--it's what a healer is supposed to do.

Considering when you get Curaga and considering when it becomes actually becomes useful it doesn't seem to be a priority spell. But consider the cost. It is 60MP. Cure 2 costs 24MP. For Curaga to be more cost effective you need 3 people to be pulled out of the critical levels. Given how many classes have access to Cure 2 strength spells it is much more cost effective and hate manageable to split it with a backup healer than just dropping one Curaga. Obviously if you're the sole healer then by all means use it but any RDM, SCH or Mage with WHM subbed can use Cure 2 and can easily split the emergency cures with you. And to be honest any party not containing a RDM post-Jungles is asking for a hard time really. Have you ever tried to kill a beetle with no dispel available? In Garliage we were fighting one for a full 5 minutes because the RDM didn't have dispel.

[quote"IfritnoItazura"]]Plenty of enemies can inflict "magical" type damage; lizards, crabs, goblin, gigas, crawlers, flies, worms, (and probably pugils) are just a few you can encounter at lower levels. (Probably don't need Shellra for beetles, triple bats, mandragoras, and dhalmels, though.)

In any case, MP flow should be good enough that you can do one Shellra every 30 minutes. If not, stop the party for a minute to get both Protectra and Shellra on, and rest for MP for a bit. Unless you're sure the enemies you face do not cause any magic damage, you might as well put up Shellra.[/quote]

If I remember right Lizards don't have magic based TP attacks and mage Gobbies tend to get silenced pretty much instantly at any level.

And Bar-Spells do much more to prevent damage from ALL elemental attacks, not just magic based attacks. And considering Bar-Spells take about 2 seconds to cast you can usually get one off in an emergency when needed. With a capped level in Enhancing Magic I rarely do have to keep Shellra up on the party purely because my Bar-Spells do all of the work.

And like I mentioned earlier about Protectra. I was mainly talking about Dunes levels which is what the topic creator is at and even then I would much rather Barwatera and Barfira be up at all times than Shell. Shell doesn't make poison less likely to stick nor does it make a bomb toss do single digit damage (I saw this happen in the Jungles and the entire party burst out laughing). I've seen Screwdriver crit and one shot a Galka with shell up when the next one didn't even hit about 50 when the WHM put Barwatera up on him.

Shellra is very useful at Qufim because virtually anything you can fight there can throw some sort of magic at you but bar-spells are much better for preventing magical damange, are faster for emergencies and are much more MP effective for a Dunes level WHM where even using Cure will take a chunk out of thier MP bar.

[quote"IfritnoItazura"]]So combative. You should play a DD instead of a healer. [/quote]

Sorry! T_T I've been trying to get BLM up to 37 so I'm still in the DD mindset ^_^;;

And to be fair he didn't offer ANY constructive criticism like you did. He just criticise me merely trying to help to teach a new fellow White Mage without offering any way in which I should improve my advice.

And come on, not everyone can immediately afford the best gear for thier class. some people are still new and trying to get their first class to 75 you know

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: at low levels

The BLM shouldn't be taking hate anyway. I know that accidents do happen but isn't it usually partially their fault that hate went there in the first place? When playing BLM I always time my nukes to be in time with the voke timer for that very reason ^_^

Well, the point was it doesn't need to cost more MP to Protectra everyone; just have them all gathered together.

At dunes levels which is the levels the topic creator as at (Dunes Level), when given the choice between refreshing protectra and healing the tank that MP may well have been the last cure spell that could have saved the tank.

I've no trouble asking the party to stop fighting to recharge MP, putting up Protectra, etc.

Pre-24 there is no point at in subbing NIN at all due to lack of shadows.

This isn't completely true for one-handed weapon users; Duel Wield I is available at NIN10, which is 10% delay reduction for melee attacks. The real argument against /NIN between Lv.10-23 is that other support job may offer better utility--as you said, an extra provoke or a few cures may be helpful.

however at 25 you will be hitting the Jungles where you will be fighting Mandies. Utusemi: Ichi is near useless for tanking against MNK type enemies because hits come so often (2 of the 3 shadows will be gones in one attack) AND you will have no access to the full elemental wheel.

It's silly to use Ichi level wheel; the damage/time ratio just isn't worth the trouble.

For a single tank, yes, cannot rely on Utsusemi: Ichi solely. However, when it comes to duo tanking--two WAR/NIN's trading provokes, for example, Ichi can get the job done, and done well.

Even if the WARs or NINs do nothing with Ichi but cover 6 hits each per fight, that's 12 hits the healer don't have to deal with. Now, imagine if it's three of them; that's 18 hits--but wait, with three people recasting Utusemi would be a breeze for at least one of them to recast Utsusemi at any time--now you will get more than 6 hits absorbed per person per fight even if they do nothing but jam on the Provoke and Utsusemi macros while watching TV.

Personally, I've duo tanked on both NIN/WAR and WAR/NIN; even did a NIN/WAR x3 Valkurm Dunes party once. Generally, they work out nicely. Co-tank and Utsusemi: Ichi are just made for each other, IMO.

When you hit 32 you will be at Garliage Citadel and will have access to the Elemental Wheel and will be able to manage hate must more effectively but Utisemi: Ichi isn't all that useful when tanking against bats either and having no RDM makes fighting Beetles a pain.

Bats hit pretty hard; any attack absorbed is good; co-tanking another NIN or WAR/NIN is a great way to tackle them. (Any NIN or /NIN using Ichi level wheel should be smacked for wasting time and gil, of course.)

Not even DRKs lose thier HP has fast as a blink tank.

Oh, DRK can lose HP fast with Souleater. Faster, if they stack Berserk or touch Last Resort with it up, for a slightly different reason.

I'm not denying that Blink Tanks aren't useful at higher levels which is when you will get Utusemi: Ni with NIN subbed. Having Ichi and Ni means that shadows will rarely wear off if the NIN is good. However considering the Main Tank and WHM have to live a virtually symbiotic relationship in a party I would much rather have a more reliable class such as a PLD/WAR or even PUP/WAR as a tank rather than someone who, as soon a shadows go down could lose their HP at such a stupidly fast rate you only have to blink and the tank is dead. It's even worse when it makes the tank too scared to voke if I take hate from healing them.

If talking about bad players with bad gears, it really doesn't matter which job they tank on--the party will suck, Utsusemi or no Utsusemi.

Up to Lv.24's Chainmail set, NINs pretty much gets most defense gears other tanks get; the defense of NIN/WAR (and WAR/NIN) actually isn't all that terrible, if geared right. It's only at Lv.29 with the Eisen/Kamph set become available for WAR and PLD do NINs significantly fall behind on defense. Then again, NINs have better evasion and much easier time getting Utsusemi: Ichi up while under fire, it spends less time than WAR/NIN getting beat up.

If a tanking WAR/NIN is getting beat up terribly, either he's set up wrong, or the party is over hunting--WAR has access to all the low level heavy armor PLD has.

I'm trying not to hate on Blink Tanks but from my personal experience you only have an 1 in 30 chance of actually getting a good one ^_^;;

lol. That, may be true.

Considering when you get Curaga and considering when it becomes actually becomes useful it doesn't seem to be a priority spell. But consider the cost. It is 60MP. Cure 2 costs 24MP. For Curaga to be more cost effective you need 3 people to be pulled out of the critical levels.

What do Cure II do at lower levels? 90 HP? That's 3.75 HP/MP. To meet that efficiency, Curaga has to heal 225 HP total. That's 75 HP per person, if healing three. Or, 57 MP per person, if healing four.

If three people in range are missing more than 75 HP each, Curaga automatically wins the MP efficiency game. That figure is lowered to 57 HP, if four people are in range.

The other factor to consider is time. Cure II is 2.25 second to cast, with 5.5 second recast. That means, to do Cure II x3, you'd need 17.75 seconds total without haste or Fast Cast.

In contrast, Curaga is 4.5 seconds to cast. If the tank won't die in the extra 2.25 seconds the Curaga requires, you'd save 12.25 seconds. When needing to cure multiple people, Curaga is the champ for time efficiency game. The time consideration is rather important for critters capable of back-to-back AoE attacks, such as Goblins and their Bomb Toss.

Given how many classes have access to Cure 2 strength spells it is much more cost effective and hate manageable to split it with a backup healer than just dropping one Curaga.

That's safer for the healers, I agree. But, it's not always "cost effective" for the reasons I outlined above.

Have you ever tried to kill a beetle with no dispel available? In Garliage we were fighting one for a full 5 minutes because the RDM didn't have dispel.

You were over hunting, probably. When not over hunting, it is possible to exp reasonably off of beetles, even with their Rhino Guard evasion boost move.
- THF and /THF: There's no way to evade a properly executed Sneak Attack
- DNC: Quick Steps to lower evasion.
- SC/MB: SAMx2 and BLM (or SCH)x2 can destroy any beetle.
- WAR (or DRK): Shield Break (2h Axe) overrides Rhino Guard, IIRC, and lowers evasion by 40.

If I remember right Lizards don't have magic based TP attacks and mage Gobbies tend to get silenced pretty much instantly at any level.

Lizards have Fireball (AoE Fire based damage). Goblin's Bomb Toss should be magic based as well.

You're right in that Bar-element spells do more, but if those are magic damage, shell probably does something for it. If I understand it correctly, Bar-element spell increases the chance of partial-resists, but does not guarantee it. Given that the smallest partial-resist is half off, of course the effect is pretty dramatic when it does happen. Shell works on the damage adjustment side; Shell I is ~9.4% reduction, and it's set reduction--no chance or probability involved.

So, let's say that a magic attack "should" hit for 100 damage.

If the matching bar spell is on, it may hit for 50 or 25--or it may hit for 100. Over time, you'd see it range all over the place.

If shell is on, you should see many 90's, and then some (fewer) 45's and 22's from natural resists.

Of course, that means if you combine Shell and Bar-element, you'd see mostly 45's and lower, with a few 90's.

However you slice it, given that Shell lasts 30 minutes, not casting Shellra when facing monsters with magical damage attacks is a waste of MP--whatever you saved on not casting Shellra, you'd spend multiples of that on cures and regens over the 30 minute period, not to mention making fights more dangerous by exposing party members to larger damage on average.

I've seen Screwdriver crit and one shot a Galka with shell up when the next one didn't even hit about 50 when the WHM put Barwatera up on him.

Screwdriver is a physical attack which has a chance of crit hit, I think; that means its damage can vary wildly depending on whether it crit hits or not. Barwatera shouldn't affect it, I would think. (Auqa Ball is the "magic" damage attack from Pugils.)

And come on, not everyone can immediately afford the best gear for thier class. some people are still new and trying to get their first class to 75 you know

I'm only terribly picky about my own gear; all I ask from PUG members is that they wear things which help their role in party; no "pant-less" tank, no full-time Empress Band, no gear which should have been replaced 10 levels ago by some cheap AH gear, and no junk stats items like MP earring while playing SAM/WAR.

[sykoticjestr]

Re: at low levels

Also, I can say I dont think I will ever use a PLer in a party to help me, because then that kind of defeats the purpose of me being there doesn't it? o_O

the best advice i can give for this is, be a RDM. when a PL comes along pull out ur melee gear and start enfeebleing, use an En- spell, and lvl the skills u normally dont. i do it whenever a PL comes along.

[Tomato_Kai]

Re: at low levels

Firewind, I am not going to retort the entirety of your post. I'll let Itazura defend himself, anyhow. Besides that, I don't believe that you're wrong in every regard.

If a BLM overpulls hate, and dies, sure - that's his fault. My point, was, you protect/shell him just like everyone else as a matter of courtesy - besides that, it's just a plain good habit to get into. It's solid strategy to be prepared for any potential outcome. It's part of what makes a good party a good party, or a bad one a bad one. Murphey's Law states that if there's more than one possible outcome of an event, and one of those outcomes will result in disaster or an undesirable consequence, then that will be the one that occurs. Why not be ready for it?

I'm sure you've been in parties before where you've had an awful pull, or a DD accidentally target the wrong mob, or something where you only barely just survived - because of small preparations such as having Protect/Shell on *every* party member, or having the right food for the moment, or having an alternate type of armor for defense vs. mana regen (my rather poor whm does this). It's just a plain good idea. Why is that so bad?

EDIT: I've been chronically misspelling firewind's name... ><;

[Negklar]

Re: at low levels

the best advice i can give for this is, be a RDM. when a PL comes along pull out ur melee gear and start enfeebleing, use an En- spell, and lvl the skills u normally dont. i do it whenever a PL comes along.

Yep, just the other day I was leveling my WHM to 37 for RDM/WHM later on (I'm 52RDM atm). The group had a PL so I leveled my Divine Magic with Banish from basically nothing to near cap (while also throwing out a few Aero and Fire from /BLM). Normally I don't like having a PL, but you make the best out of the situation.

[Firewind]

Re: at low levels

Oh, DRK can lose HP fast with Souleater. Faster, if they stack Berserk or touch Last Resort with it up, for a slightly different reason.

A saw a DRK in my party pull this off and lose near enough 50% of their HP in seconds. Sure the mob died fast but being the party's WHM, I nearly had a coronary when I saw it happen. I love having them around but DRKs must really love being separated from their HP. Shame there is no way I can get stoneskin on them so they at least don't cause me to have a panic attack in the process

Speaking of that. Would that combo stack with SATA? Just imagining the damage that would produce makes me feel light headed.

[Somnar]

Re: at low levels

The only armour from 10-29 that is even remotely useful to a WHM would be the Zealot and Devotee's Mitts and the Windurstian Slops. There is a lot of other mage gear but it benefits BLM, RDM and SCH much, much more. The Baron's Gear (Which seems geared more for RDMs) or Mage's Gear (You lose the head slot and 20+ MP from a Silver Hairpin and gain no useful stats). What is there that realy benefits WHM before Seer's? A new player should really just save thier money and get Seer's +1 when they get to 29.

Personally I would rather party with someone who knows how to play their class but has bad gear than someone who is bad but has has pretty, shiny gear. ^_^

I'll agree that gear isn't everything, but I wouldn't say gear is nothing, even before 29. You won't always have a RDM in the party, especially at lower levels, and that +MND can help for debuffs (slow and paralyze). Plus, while it may not be as important, you can also get a little extra MP from gear.

- Friar's Rope
- Justice Badge
- Holy Phial
- Saintly Rings
- +1 wands
- Hairpins (as you mentioned)
etc.