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**Necropolis** · 08-02-2007, 03:44 PM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Originally posted by Irisjir Callard View Post

So, several points I've been wondering about:

Blessed Briault: Worth the inventory or not? I already have noble's tunic and cleric's briault for cures and regens, and errant for resting. Is increased barspell potency really worth ANOTHER piece of inventory occupied?

I don't bother putting mine on that much in meripo, but now that I've started HNMs and more in depth endgame stuff, I do use it a lot.

Genbu's Sheild: Why does everyone love this thing? Yes, damage -10%. I can see that being pretty nice. Is it worth sacrificing attk+12? Obviously, since I'm using healing and dark staff in pt, I'm not going be using a shield unless I'm soloing. As a melee/solo whm, should I make an attempt to get a genbu's?

Well it depends on what you're attacking. You can use it in exp as well with a templar mace, but I prefer the Astral Aspis or Numinous Shield for mp/mnd builds. My light staff only gets macroed in for dia/flah/holy these days.

Do any whms use /pld, especially in place of /smn for auto-refresh and job ability buffs? Dynamis applications come to mind for this combonation.

Depending on what role you play in dynamis mandates what I sub. I usually go with /blm for ES+sleep incase the blm parties get wiped by something and we're low on sleepers. A whm friend of mine ran a dynamis shell for a long time and used /nin or /thf to pull. Of course he's just a different tier whm than myself, he has a SS of a magic burst banish3 for 2300+ damage in his sig. I have no idea how a taru got enough mind for that much damage @.@

/pld you'd be losing out on a hell of a lot of mp compared to /smn. I know blms that use war or nin as a sub and do quiet well, so perhaps it has potential. Though I don't find myself getting hit that often as whm in dynamis anymore.

What is the job priority for hastes? I know I have my own priority based on things like tp gain and other random stuffs, but I'd be interested to see in what order OTHER whm's haste people, especially DD. I don't want to see something like "I hate the tank then the dd then someone else" I want a specific order, like NIN > PLD > DRK > THF > etc etc down to SAM > RNG > BLM > SMN
As a sub-question here, do you commonly haste yourself?

Most times I'm hasting all the melees, so just to make it easier for me, I start with the top melee in the party list, then go to next, next, next et cetera. After the initial haste cycle, they'll have haste on 99% of the time, so I don't have to have a priority. If something happens that I run low on MP, I'll drop to just hasting the tank for a few ticks then more on.

And I don't typically haste myself, I usually don't have trouble keeping up a 4 man haste cycle most nights.

Of course in events where I may not be hasting anyone, I haste tanks first, then skill chainers if we're going for MB damage. I'll haste the slower DD in the skill chain first (like drk) then the faster skillchain partner (like a sam)

Do you use enfeebling, IE, paralize and slow, in pts? And at what levels and situations do you enfeeble?

I use to not enfeeble a lot, though enough to keep the skill capped. But now that I've redone all my macros and carry around nearly 60 pieces of equipment for whm alone, I do enfeeble a bit. Right now I'm sitting at 274 enfeebling skill in gear/merits and don't have too much trouble enfeebling most exp mobs, and the majority of dynamis mobs.

**Olorin401** · 08-03-2007, 03:43 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Originally posted by Irisjir Callard View Post

So, several points I've been wondering about:
Blessed Briault: Worth the inventory or not? I already have noble's tunic and cleric's briault for cures and regens, and errant for resting. Is increased barspell potency really worth ANOTHER piece of inventory occupied?

I'd say it's worth the investment if you do a lot with endgame, though admittedly I sold mine when I got Noble's Tunic and started putting merits into barspells instead.

Genbu's Sheild: Why does everyone love this thing? Yes, damage -10%. I can see that being pretty nice. Is it worth sacrificing attk+12? Obviously, since I'm using healing and dark staff in pt, I'm not going be using a shield unless I'm soloing. As a melee/solo whm, should I make an attempt to get a genbu's?
I've already pestered the hell with merit questions, so I won't re-visit those.

It's nice to have for some situations but mine usually takes up space in my mog locker.

Do any whms use /pld, especially in place of /smn for auto-refresh and job ability buffs? Dynamis applications come to mind for this combonation.
Have any whms ever experimented with /sam? This is off the wall and random, I'd like to try it out someday as a melee sub along similar lines as /nin (but without utsuemi and dual-weild, ofcourse)

I never tried these two jobs as a sub to WHM. Usually I use /smn, /blm or /nin if I wanna go off somewhere and beat stuff up.

What is the job priority for hastes? I know I have my own priority based on things like tp gain and other random stuffs, but I'd be interested to see in what order OTHER whm's haste people, especially DD. I don't want to see something like "I hate the tank then the dd then someone else" I want a specific order, like NIN > PLD > DRK > THF > etc etc down to SAM > RNG > BLM > SMN
As a sub-question here, do you commonly haste yourself?

My order is Tanks > Two-handed melee > dual wield melee. If there's another healer in our group, especially a RDM, we'll split up the haste duty and I will cast it on myself last.

Do you use enfeebling, IE, parayize and slow, in pts? And at what levels and situations do you enfeeble?

I usually don't get a chance to cast enfeebs since RDMs are just better at making it stick and proc than WHMs.. though if no one else is doing it I will. As for situations I hope you would cast enfeebs any time you can! I think the only time I wouldn't is if I knew for a fact that the mob would resist it every time.. and such a situation is rare.

**Kirsteena** · 08-03-2007, 04:00 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Originally posted by Irisjir Callard View Post

So, several points I've been wondering about:
Blessed Briault: Worth the inventory or not? I already have noble's tunic and cleric's briault for cures and regens, and errant for resting. Is increased barspell potency really worth ANOTHER piece of inventory occupied?

Depends what you use your whm for. Seriously endgame, yes. Casual/meripo, no.

Genbu's Sheild: Why does everyone love this thing? Yes, damage -10%. I can see that being pretty nice. Is it worth sacrificing attk+12? Obviously, since I'm using healing and dark staff in pt, I'm not going be using a shield unless I'm soloing. As a melee/solo whm, should I make an attempt to get a genbu's?

Personally, I have rdm at 75, and I'm happier soloing on that job, so I dunno about this one.

Do any whms use /pld, especially in place of /smn for auto-refresh and job ability buffs? Dynamis applications come to mind for this combonation.
Have any whms ever experimented with /sam? This is off the wall and random, I'd like to try it out someday as a melee sub along similar lines as /nin (but without utsuemi and dual-weild, ofcourse)

Can't say I have experimented, I'm tending to stick to ordinary subs for whm (for the whacky, I'll try rdm again, though won't work for /sam)

What is the job priority for hastes? I know I have my own priority based on things like tp gain and other random stuffs, but I'd be interested to see in what order OTHER whm's haste people, especially DD. I don't want to see something like "I hate the tank then the dd then someone else" I want a specific order, like NIN > PLD > DRK > THF > etc etc down to SAM > RNG > BLM > SMN
As a sub-question here, do you commonly haste yourself?

I haste tank > 2 handed melee > 1 handed melee > never mages. Well, I'll haste a blm when he is d2ing people home.... As for me, it depends on how things are going, I'm not in the habit of hasting myself, as I am an Elvaan, and mp is mp, but if I have a lot to do, I will, to free up more time to rest.

Do you use enfeebling, IE, paralize and slow, in pts? And at what levels and situations do you enfeeble?
Hmm...I think that's enough for today. Discuss!

Yes, I do, except if there is a rdm there. I have 8/8 enf magic merits, plus gear from rdm, so I'm happy to enfeeble whenever I have to - if I can save a melee from being hit with a para proc, less mp for me to expend.

**Dux** · 08-03-2007, 05:29 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Originally posted by Irisjir Callard View Post

Genbu's Sheild: Why does everyone love this thing? Yes, damage -10%. I can see that being pretty nice. Is it worth sacrificing attk+12? Obviously, since I'm using healing and dark staff in pt, I'm not going be using a shield unless I'm soloing. As a melee/solo whm, should I make an attempt to get a genbu's?

You may be interested in this little gem if you dont understand why Genbu's Shield is so popular. Templar Mace: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=10433

**Kirsteena** · 08-03-2007, 05:35 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Yeah, but most people team it up with something like a Numinous Shield +1 to get the maximum mnd from that set up. And I wouldn't melee with a Templar Mace, not where there are the pirate cudgels, Morgenstern, Perdu Wand, Brass Jagdana +1...

**Taskmage** · 08-03-2007, 07:22 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

/pld actually seems like a pretty good idea even for a whm that plays as a dedicated backliner. Most whms I know use /smn but never bother with Aerial Armor, so they're pretty much just using it for auto-refresh and slightly more mnd and mp. /pld gives Defense Bonus (doesn't hurt), Resist Sleep (actually works once in a blue moon and saves lives when it does), and Sentinel to greatly reduce the amount of damage you take in case you pull hate. Seems like a pretty fair trade. A little more durability for a little bit of potency.

**hongman** · 08-03-2007, 07:53 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

On a slightly off note for these JT Resists...do they ever work?

You say in that post, Task, that once in a while....how can you be sure that it isnt a natural resist, as opposed to a JT?

Take, for example, RDM Resist Petrify.

I have never once known it to work. Ever. The desciption of a Job Traist is something that is always in effect, so I would sum it up as a permenant Barspell if you like.

Breakga in Dynamis. Gaze attacks. etc. I always "unpetrify" the same as other people, I'll be damned if Iv ever resisted it from EM mob+.

Food for thought.

NB: At least we know that Mob JT's work, trying to sleep PLD mobs is a bish lol.

**WishMaster3K** · 08-03-2007, 08:28 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

I honestly got sick of my Genbu Shield, but I recently and regrettably admitted that there aren't better choices for mages.

I wasn't realizing the seriousness of it as a piece of gear, because it was a free lot in my LS at the time, but my RDMs I know w/o sky always say how they wish they had one.

I mean, I got mine before I could equip it (2 years ago in november *_*) so maybe I'm biased, being as I've had it my entire lvl 75 career. But I'm doomed to have the Joyeuse and Genbu combo as long as I'm a RDM, so oh well ; ;

The only question I can comment on is your Haste cycle, and that's simple, because I'm similar to Necro almost 100% in regards to that. I use the in-game clock, and Haste will last about 1 hour and 6-8 minutes. Taking Refresh as an example, I start casting on the (hour):58, and by (hour+1):00 it's done, and the next time I can cast it is roughly (hour+1):7-8.

If I don't recast, it'll wear at (hour+2):11ish, so for the most part, I always recast the spell a few seconds before it'll wear. Even If i'm Refreshing and Hasting 3 people (well, 2, because I might be hasting myself) I can finish my buff cycle (intersparsed with Debuffs while I'm waiting for the cool down timers) by (hour+1):35, and I'll have plenty of time to Rest.

**Neomage** · 08-03-2007, 08:55 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Originally posted by hongman View Post

On a slightly off note for these JT Resists...do they ever work?

You say in that post, Task, that once in a while....how can you be sure that it isnt a natural resist, as opposed to a JT?

Take, for example, RDM Resist Petrify.

I have never once known it to work. Ever. The desciption of a Job Traist is something that is always in effect, so I would sum it up as a permenant Barspell if you like.

Breakga in Dynamis. Gaze attacks. etc. I always "unpetrify" the same as other people, I'll be damned if Iv ever resisted it from EM mob+.

Food for thought.

NB: At least we know that Mob JT's work, trying to sleep PLD mobs is a bish lol.

It might just be a fluke, but when I did dynamis, everyone "unbroke" in "tiers" I was always, always in the first unbreaking cycle, along with other BLM/RDMs and some RDMs.

Once, I actually resisted it. I thought this was pretty cool, because I was subbing RDM. But I assure you, I resisted it. I only wish my SS didn't get deleted ; ;

**WishMaster3K** · 08-03-2007, 08:59 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

OS, it never procs. Don't fool yourself.

; ;

I'm going to go find a corner to cry in now.

**Taskmage** · 08-03-2007, 09:03 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

If you resist something normally, the log will say something like "No effect on Lago." or "Lago evades." If a status resistance trait contributes to the resist, or if you have something like Ebullient Ring that enhances a resist trait, the log will read "Resist! Lago resists the effects of the spell."

On thier own, resist traits are not very effective, especially on mobs higher than EM, but if you stack them with other resistances, Resist Petrify+Barstone+Barpetrify in Dynamis Bastok for instance, the combined effect is noticably greater than if you did not have the resist trait. With that combination I often full resist breakga or have a petrify that wears off in a couple seconds. Ebullient Ring+drk sub+Barblizzard+Parparalyze means I don't have to bother to turn around to avoid Hex Eye when farming hakutaku eyes on the mobs that are lower than VT. Most of the time the effect doesn't stick.

Resist Sleep I probably wouldn't make a huge difference, but it does have an effect if you play to it. I know Sleepga death can be avoided by using Poison Potions, but it can be very expensive to keep poison on for every pull that might contain Sleepga, and you can't always predict when it's going to be important. Iirc, Barsleep costs about 9 mp and lasts for a long time - around 10 minutes I think, maybe 5.

In a normal party, sure, the whm shouldn't be taking hits, but I can think of plenty of instances just in dynamis where it might happen. A big pull gets too near to where you're resting, sleepga misses a mob and since you were healing mp you're on the top of the hate list. Maybe the mob does get slept but you heal the blm sleeper when they wake, which puts you next on the hate list. A less experienced tank in Xarc might line up badly with a nin or rng, causing you to get spammed with Hecatomb Wave. Any of those situations seem like a good time to hit Sentinel.

Concerning auto-refresh, if you're in a position where you're relatively safe and have a lot of people who can benefit from it, tank party with multiple plds for instance, sure /brd is probably better. If you're in a party where you expect enmity to bounce a lot like a meripo, /smn is better for AA. If all you're concerned with is your own mp and safety, /pld seems like a pretty valid choice.

**Irisjir Callard** · 08-03-2007, 09:08 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Originally posted by WishMaster3K View Post

....tons of numbers....

Your use of math confuses me. XD But I think I get the basic gist of what you're saying.

That also explains what might be triggering what I always sort of considered an 'instinctive' feel for where my hastes stood, since in low-stress situations I always 'know' when it's about to wear off in a few seconds. Maybe without knowing it I was keeping track of the clock...I used to wonder if it was a sign of advanced addiction.

As far as templar mace, that's definitely something to consider, on the other hand, it means instead of carrying two staffs for pt and a hammer and sheild for solo (Which totals out to four weapons) I would be carrying a staff, two hammers, two sheilds (and one more inventory slot fills up).

If I had a genbus I can see myself using it in that setup. But I don't think genbu's will ever replace Viking for the following reason:

WHM is known neither for defense nor attack abilities.
But WHM has stoneskin to make up for defense.
What do we have to patch our gimpy attack?
...have to do it with gear.

I also don't think I'll ever transfer from being a pt-staff person to a pt-club person for the simple reason that I habitually don't melee in pts with strangers. And if I'm not with strangers, my friends know I prefer to let regens do the work, so cure potency items isn't even an issue...and they won't cure over my massive regen as much as strangers will. Since I'm unlikely to be tanking in either situation, and more likely to be something of an extra DD, attack is more valuable than defense.

I'm suprised more people don't see the applications of /pld. Sure the MP is low, and the defense might help if the whm takes hate, but if a whm has hate in Dynamis a wipe is in process anyway from what I've seen.

But a whm/pld with a hMP build like mine shouldn't be bothered by the lack of MP, right? As is I usually reserve the bottom 300 of my MP for emergency use only anyway, I don't think it would be that much of a cramp on my style. And aren't some of the pld defense buffs (that are subbable, at least) AOE? That would be like an extra Protect for my pt, imho, to be used with the same frequency...whenever it wears off if possible. This is why I'm thinking of dynamis, especially for nin pt's, OR, in conjunction with either a rdm or blm sub healer. Imagine the devotion you would get with 1200 HP to fuel it!!! I'm seeing 300+

Basically, you're outsourcing your MP to another mage.

Oh and another thing, what about sheild mastery? I'd think that would make a definitely noticeable difference, especially to the whm's who use templar+genbus.

**Taskmage** · 08-03-2007, 09:17 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Often overlooked fact about shield mastery: it only kicks in when you block if you would've gained TP without it. Meaning you have to take damage while blocking to get any extra TP. So if Stoneskin absorbs the damage or a shadow takes the hit it can't have any effect. That alone makes it not worth considering as a bonus when soloing as rdm or whm.

**Irisjir Callard** · 08-03-2007, 09:21 AM

Re: Been awhile since the WHM's had a discussion

Originally posted by Taskmage View Post

...I know Sleepga death can be avoided by using Poison Potions...

Yes, that is expensive. My dynamis LS requires that you show at least 6 poison pots in the trade window to get your hourglass.

Alot of people keep the same 6 potions to show and never use them, so the theory, while sound in that it makes sure people are supplied, fails to make them use those supplies.

And here's the cute thing, me and the other whm's tend to fan out at a fairly wide distance around the melee core, instead of standing in groups. Even if a sleepga hits two or three of us, the range is simply not wide enough to hit the entire 'mage donut' and we simply walk cures around the edge until all the mages are awake and have woken up their pt's. So even though we have the poison pots, our formation makes us so confident that we never use them.

But when a whm leaves the donut to run into the melee core, for say, barspell, curaga (if they feel like being included in the healing effect) protect, shell, or simply to get in range of someone else, they get slept along with the rest if a sleepga happens to fire. And since they're not in the donut, there is no 'person to the left' to wake them up, so usually their whole pt is left asleep for quite some time.

This happened to me about 5 times last dynamis Jueno, I swear the mobs were waiting for barfira to wear, KNOWING that I would run up and renew it. I'm trying to save up gil to afford a molly maul, so I try to keep my expendable item usage to a minimum...

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