Level 40, 'The Wall'

[Saren]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

What *are* you fighting, anyway?

It was Flies and Goblins Poacher/Robber/Reaper in Gustav Tunnel.

For Regen II, at the moment I will trade the decreased efficiency for the chance to stop cure spamming long enough so I can be more efficient elsewhere or actually rest long enough to regain mp during most fights again, assuming I can cast it without anyone dying. Learning to anticipate the hate and mob better is definitely something I need to work on so I can fit the longer cast time spells together more safely.

Geh...I really want to go get an exp party and try to iron out my kinks for a few levels but I have to wait till Monday, roll on Monday. ^ ^

[Amele]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Hmm. As PLD62, RDM69 (and WHM44), I like PLD hasted.
The main reason is the Flash recast timer. Additional sword swings also make better use of all those enmity gear PLD's have. I noticed that when my PLD is not hasted, the static Samurai would get the monster's unwanted attention more easily. In fact, DD's taking the monster away from me is when I usually discover that "Hey, the Haste icon is gone!"

most paladins don't have significant enmity before 60 (although I did say it would apply through 72 so this is a decent point) - given the choice between hasting my paladin or having enough mp to flash twice in the same interval myself, I'm going to flash twice (50% flash reduction > 15% flash reduction) I realize that this is flawed in the sense that a whitemage should routinely have enough mp to not need to choose, but my comment was largely predicated on the assumption that mp was limited.
DD taking away the mob for ~20-30 seconds is no big deal and actually can be more efficient from a healing standpoint anyway (as much as hate jockeys might not like it :x - I know I hate not having it pointed at me 100% of the time when I'm tanking anything.) 200 damage from a round or two of hits through whatever damage mitigation the DD have is easily recouped with a regen II/III.
paladin enmity from swings is very nice, but the actual damage boost is negligible compared to that from hasting a real DD (pre pld/nin DD levels) and as such is not part of the critical path in exp (that is, killing things as fast as possible without anyone dying)

Also, if there's a skillchain, Haste should be prioritized for the melee player falling behind on TP.

this is only relevant if the Skillchain is for a SATAVB/DE closer or there is a blackmage magic bursting (non-AM) in the party, and the lagging player is not a ranger or corsair; but this is a very good point.
Otherwise the haste should go to the player who gets the biggest dot gain (usually a job like monk, dark, sam, drg, etc. typically discriminated by gear) in the case of players with varying haste setups, the player with the -most- haste gear should get haste priority, due to the way haste dot gains improve as you stack more of it.

The ideal, of course, is to keep every melee player hasted, but a WHM should have help either with hasting and/or curing for reaching that, especially at those levels. Otherwise, I'd usually put priority on the tank first, and the slower SC partner second, then everyone else my MP can support.

neither style is 'wrong' of course, but my personal priority list is:
utsusemi-tank, best DD, other x/nin, pld tank
non-traditional tanks (counterstance monk, sam/war etc) who hold hate primarily via damage and not JA, and whose damage mitigation is not on a spell timer, get hasted first as well, since they require the haste to do better dot. (note that almost without fail, an 'offensive' tank is typically one of the best DD and would get the haste first or second with a more traditional tank anyway)

Ninjas universally view Haste as non-optional when my RDM or WHM is in the party. I wonder how they get through parties with SMN+BRD (well, and maybe BLM) as the only backline? Do they demand that Hastega which most SMN's hate to use? Do they actually get it?!

I would expect hastega, yes. I'm not sure why summoners dislike it, except that it's not a rage BP. (it's one of the best buffs summoner has actually, from a dot standpoint) although now that they're on separate timers, there's really no excuse for a summoner to not be using ward BPs in exp.

[Icemage]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Haste is definitely non-optional on NIN/WAR tanks. Casting time reduction on Utsusemi is the key to the way they avoid damage and build enmity, and taking that away makes a Ninja tank far less effective. Always keep Haste on your Ninjas.

I don't know how all Ninjas deal with it, but SMN + BRD combinations I've played in the past usually dropped one Minuet(ATK+) in favor of March (Haste). A single March played with a +2 instrument provides around 8 or 9% Haste, which is good enough to get by with (and helps the DDs too - this works really well if the DDs also have Utsusemi).

I've never seen Hastega used in a party in a serious context. It's just too expensive MP-wise. 112 MP for 2 minutes of Haste. That's nearly 3 times the cost of the Haste spell, which lasts 3 minutes. Add to that the summoning cost and perpetuation cost of Garuda and you're now OVER 3 times the cost of Haste. Totally not worth it.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

I think someone else already made this point, but Haste on the best DD has a tendency to turn that DD into the MP sponge which kills the chain. It's not always true, but happened to my RDM often enough that I usually refuse to Haste any DD before the tank, unless the tank is a PLD and already have absolutely solid hold on enmity. (Which is rather rare post Lv.50, unless all DD's in the party are ill set up.)

Also, I don't view fastest exp as the most enjoyable exp. Having a tank holding the monster well is a beautiful thing to perform/assist with. Worth my MP on RDM (or WHM) to see it happen, and worth the slightly slower killing speed vs. hasting another DD instead, too, if MP is constrained.

* * *

I would expect hastega, yes. I'm not sure why summoners dislike it, except that it's not a rage BP. (it's one of the best buffs summoner has actually, from a dot standpoint) although now that they're on separate timers, there's really no excuse for a summoner to not be using ward BPs in exp.

There are two reasons:
1. Hastega is MP inefficient compared to Haste.

• Hastega has the same % effect as Haste, but costs a whopping 120MP/90sec.
• Haste is 40 MP/178sec.

To get near the efficiency of Haste, Hastega has to hit FIVE people who benefits significantly from Haste--that means FIVE melee--not RNG or any mage (except BLU).

2. Since Hastega is only 90 seconds, it means SMN cannot keep up Haste full time without skipping other BP buffs.

On the upside, the typical Haste cycle (3 melee) takes much longer to cast than Hastega--having the SMN doing it gives the RDM and WHM a lot of breathing time.

[Icemage]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Might be because I'm Tarutaru, but I think I only ever saw a Summoner in my RDM parties once from level 40-75. Seems everyone and their brother expects Taru RDM to be limitless fountains of MP (which is nearly true, but even "limitless" gets stretched when you're debuffing, Hasting, Refreshing, AND healing the entire party...).


Icemage

[Amele]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

I think someone else already made this point, but Haste on the best DD has a tendency to turn that DD into the MP sponge which kills the chain. It's not always true, but happened to my RDM often enough that I usually refuse to Haste any DD before the tank, unless the tank is a PLD and already have absolutely solid hold on enmity. (Which is rather rare post Lv.50, unless all DD's in the party are ill set up.)
Also, I don't view fastest exp as the most enjoyable exp. Having a tank holding the monster well is a beautiful thing to perform/assist with. Worth my MP on RDM (or WHM) to see it happen, and worth the slightly slower killing speed vs. hasting another DD instead, too, if MP is constrained.

different goals in exp, I guess. when I go to exp, I go to get the fastest exp I can as quickly as I can. (I derive enjoyment on my jobs from missions, quests, and events, not from grinding levels) and, by the level a whitemage has haste, almost all DD should have some combination of:

1) massive hp and self healing ability (cures, chakra, drain)
2) multiple passive evasion traits (evasion,parry,guarding,counter,shield,etc)
3) active damage mitigation (third eye, utsusemi)
4) enmity shedding ability (jump, hide, Trick attack)

which when combined with the 'best' tag I stuck on the #1 priority DD means they know when and how to use these abilities to lessen the curing load on the healer.

fights will also take less time, leading to less time spent on mobs at 0% hp with opportunities to gain (and spam) TP moves. of course, if a DD really is becoming a damage sponge, then I'd haste a different DD.

and again, any paladin worth their surcoat is going to be able to get the monster back before the DD has taken more than about 200~ damage which is easily recovered by spells more efficient than cure. - regen and curaga are maximized by having multiple enemies being hit.*

*which of course leads to the corollary that if you don't have a whm, you might want to consider changing the haste order slightly if a high hate DD results in needing to spam cure on someone with significantly less damage reduction from the tank.

There are two reasons:
1. Hastega is MP inefficient compared to Haste.

• Hastega has the same % effect as Haste, but costs a whopping 120MP/90sec.
• Haste is 40 MP/178sec.

To get near the efficiency of Haste, Hastega has to hit FIVE people who benefits significantly from Haste--that means FIVE melee--not RNG or any mage (except BLU).
2. Since Hastega is only 90 seconds, it means SMN cannot keep up Haste full time without skipping other BP buffs.
On the upside, the typical Haste cycle (3 melee) takes much longer to cast than Hastega--having the SMN doing it gives the RDM and WHM a lot of breathing time.

yeah, it's very much less efficient than whm or rdm haste (although, in a brd+smn+4 party, you could argue for the benefit of haste on bard since they're the primary dispeller; achieving the 5 person count for approximate efficiency.) - but the loss of a buff from summoner is less of a loss than the loss of a buff from bard (and the pt was specifically stated as being brd+smn) until the highest levels or in a 'smart' VT party with well equipped melee - at which point you'll be getting march as one of your two songs anyway. you can also cycle it as a 2 minute buff, losing 30 seconds on the cycle (this is not the worst way to run it, especially if you have the bard sing a march to cover the 30 second gap).

the number of parties I have seen pre 70 where march really was the 'right' second slot buff from bard I could probably count on one hand, and all of them were with at least a half static. so given the choice between losing some combination of +26 evasion and accuracy, or losing a guaranteed 30+ attack or accuracy, I'll take the the evasion/accuracy loss mix.

I agree that in a party with a whitemage or redmage, smn shouldn't really be using hastega.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

1) massive hp and self healing ability (cures, chakra, drain)
2) multiple passive evasion traits (evasion,parry,guarding,counter,shield,etc)
3) active damage mitigation (third eye, utsusemi)
4) enmity shedding ability (jump, hide, Trick attack)

which when combined with the 'best' tag I stuck on the #1 priority DD means they know when and how to use these abilities to lessen the curing load on the healer.

That was my theory as well, until I hasted one MNK/NIN with an OK-ish NIN tank (already on Haste). Utususemi: Ichi + MNK HP + Chakra + Dodge + Guard + Counter. I swear she had dump in merit on Hand-to-Hand and other stuff from another job or something. @_@ That MNK was saving WS until second provoke, too, IIRC.

Maybe a WHM could've handled it, but I was on RDM with enfeeb duty and had no Flash or Regen II. Had to cut off Haste for that MNK...


* * *

Love WHM's when I'm on RDM, BTW--you guys make my life so much easier. Want to use Dia II for skill up? YES, PLEASE! Second chance enfeebler on Slow? I can almost kiss you!

Regen II/III? Doing the majority of curing? Take over Bar- spells? Status removal for me? Yes, yes, yes, and YES!

[Amele]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Yeah, all my advice is obviously tainted in favor of having the full suite of healing tools at my disposal. (rdm 10 smn 39 >.> )

to be totally honest at 75 I prefer parties where no one in particular is tanking, they're much much easier on my mp. (I love parties where I never need to actually cast 'cure'. regen/Curaga {yes, please.})

like I said, my haste order is predicated on doing my part as whm to maximize exp/hr, and if the haste order also facilitates increased mp efficiency for me? then all the better.

[Saren]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Static night was this evening, you can tell that because it’s 9am here now and my typing will probably be worse than normal, probably should have gone to bed instead of doing a rank mission when the static finished. The good news is (for me at least) is that I may actually be getting back ontop of a few things.

5-6 hours on the goblins in Yhoator Jungle just by Ifrit’s Cauldren, 3 level ups, one death which I am pretty certain was not my fault. The Taru war/nin decided to see if he could uber aggressor + ws + something without upsetting the hate significantly just as the rdm and I were both casting something else, turns out he can’t and the rdm and I both spamming cure 3s on him couldn’t stop him going under from nearly full hp in about 5 seconds, so not actually feeling that bad about that one.

Having a rdm helped a lot even though he DCed about once an hour: someone else in charge of the enfeebling, I get refresh and a few back up cures if I am in the middle of casting something else, it was nice. The only problem with having a rdm in the party is that I now have convert envy.

I made myself a little reference of real time to game time thing for spells like protect, reraise, and haste and kept track of wears on the in game clock rather than trying to guestimate based on the clock by my computer. That seemed to help a lot: once I got how long haste lasted and set up a loose routine for interleaving haste and regen for the timing everything became much more automatic. I went from headless chicken to managing to keep a tank & 1 melee haste cycle going almost all the time (had to drop the melee when the rdm disconnected). 2 melees gets a little dicey but hopefully I should be able to manage it soon.

I think I am back into proper use of curagas *cheer*, I love having enough mp for them to be mp sustainable cures now. Regen 2 is great, it’s new and shiny regen 1 all over again. Slapping this on the tank means no cure bombing unless there is a TP move or two big hits close together and gives me enough time away from cure bombing to make everything else easier and lets me slap regens on the DDs instead of cure bombing them. Flash is awesome and with the hugely reduce cure spell volume I could actually rest in fights again

The second nin tank we had was really really good, not played like any nin I have seen before. He had parrying + daggers and was elemental wheeling. No idea how much damage he was doing but he could hold hate like a Trojan and took very little damage.

I don’t want to jinx anything but at least today I didn’t feel like I was going barmy trying to keep up with everything ^ ^

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Just wanted to mention this, since I've seen a lot of White Mages that don't use it.
Regens are just as important as Cures! And they save you so much MP too.

(4) For love of all that's holy keep Reraise up.

This sums up everything I was going to say.

[Karinya]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

The first thing that occurred to me when I saw the original post is "what was that party setup"? Failure is often a team effort.

A lot of people are inclined to blame the healer for deaths, but sometimes it was just a party built to fail. Not enough backline, puller too aggressive when the healer and/or tank are low on mp, DDs going ape and not watching their hate; there are many things that the rest of the party can do that will get someone killed in spite of everything the whm can do about it. (A bad tank is possible too, but tanks also get blamed a lot for deaths that were someone else's fault.) That's one of the reasons why "keep Reraise up" is such good advice.

If you haste a DD and not the tank, and find that DD getting hit a lot, haste the tank instead (or maybe in addition - haste costs less than the cure 3 you'll be casting if the DD takes a hit). And don't blame them - it's hard enough to hold hate off DDs on today's super-squishy mobs (and super-reckless DDs) *without* being on the wrong end of a Haste gap.