Level 40, 'The Wall'

[Saren]

Half self frustration based rant, half panic so sorry in advance ^ ^

Last night was the worst night I have ever had as whm. I can flat out say that when we started the party I was a truly awful whm, 5 deaths in 2-3 hours *cringe*. I haven’t had deaths in ages, then as soon as I hit 40, 7 in two parties. It’s like I hit level 40 and suddenly it’s the dunes again but this time it’s only me that sucks and I suck worse.

I mean I can see now some of the contributing factors, my total lack of experience with pld tanks (unless you count one at level 25 for half an hour), fighting mobs where barspells have been pointless for 10-15 levels, the fact that whm does get a lot more complex at 40, etc but still, I was BAD. I just....couldn't keep ontop of everything and my mind went blank.

Thankfully the party stuck with me and one of the two people I static with has whm 75 so when I finally panicked really badly and asked for help she calmed me down and started to re-remind/teach/prompt me until I was getting the hang of things again. My brain just looked at everything I was trying to keep track of and went 'nuuurrrrrrr flibble, you're on your own with this one'. I definitely think I was doing a lot better in the second half of the party (no deaths in the last 2-3 hours) and I had less support curing from the blm we got to replace the brd. I also managed to Elemental Seal and sleep a bat link without anyone having to ask me to when the blm had trouble with it which made me feel slightly better.

Things that I was reminded of or taught last night:

1. Don't panic, everything else is much, much easier if you aren’t running around and panicing like a headless chicken.
2. I mean it, don't panic
3. Barfira for goblins needs to go up straight away if one is pulled (yes….I know, I did say awful and not just bad)
4. Barwatera for flys needs to go up straight away if one is pulled. Cursed Sphere does not poison people, Venom poisons people.
5. Make sure the PLD is poison free at the end of the fight, they need to rest
6. Curaga and Divine Seal + Curaga ftw if more than two people need curing at the end of the fight, or even a mid fight curaga (thanks Taskmage for the Mycophile Cuff recommendation, they help a lot)
7. It’s o.k to rest through a whole fight so long as you get the bar spell up and no one is about to die.
8. It’s o.k. not to haste more than the tank if you can’t do it and keep your mp up.
9. It’s o.k to leave certain things on certain people, even if they ask you to take them off. Evasion down on PLD doesn’t do much but evasion down on a Nin you would remove asap. Weak poison on blm/whm/pld is bad but on a DD in the white who doesn't need to rest, not really a problem.
10. Max mp really does mean absolutely jack. Woo you had a higher mp total than without those mp rings for about a minute, after that minute leaving those mp rings on does nothing for you. Also, even though my enfeebling skill is ten levels higher than either my enhancing or my healing magic skill, I need both saintly rings to land enfeebles on exp mobs now unless it’s the element the mob is strong against, in which case, forget it. I have been using the extra MP from a full rest to get an extra haste out in the first fight and that’s about it.

Another friend who has whm 72 said he hit the same wall of sucking horribly at 40 and hated the whole of 40-50, was he being kind to me or is it fairly normal to go through a few levels of argh at level 40ish? I am just struggling for time and to regen mp fast enough at the moment. I have every single piece of hmp+ gear I can get at my level barring the insanely hard to get one, I use Wizard Cookies and I go through about a stack of melon Juice every 2 hours. I regen where I can, curagaing where I can has definitely helped too but I have more long cast time spells now and getting out the necessary ones (regen on the tank, haste on the tank, regens on any DDs in the yellow if time allows and it doesn’t look like I can just curaga in a few seconds) without letting anyone get in serious danger hasn’t clicked yet.

I definitely need to do some work on my knowledge of mobs, other jobs, keep track of hate more closely and figuring out who has poison etc on even if they are regened. The last two are just a matter of looking more closely which once I am more settled with what I am doing again should be easier. I am sure there are people here who sailed through 40 without problems but I am definitely not one of them. I am hoping it will go like the dunes and everything that was hard to remember 5 or so levels ago will become second nature and semi automatic.

Any tips that anyone has or anything that flags as missing in my approach or what I said above would be very much appreciated ^ ^

[Shadowneko]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

nice rant...I'm currently lvl 46 summoner and it gets that way for me sometimes too(although I prefer avatars). I'm currently taking a break tho and have swapped obver to my 75 THF to farm up the gill for staves and such...

[fencingkitty]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Only just out of the 40-50 break myself (54) I can say I understand what you're going through a bit. Good mental checklist as well. ^^ Points 1 & 2 are really the most important advice for a mage I think.

It's about this point that I discovered how much I absolutely love partying w/a RDM in party. Refresh and a main enfeebler made life go much more smoothly for me.

In the end, I wouldn't stress it overly or else you won't enjoy it anymore. I always think I'm a bad WHM no mater what my linkshell and fiance say. ^^ ;; And it sounds like you very actively try to just be better despite whatever bombs the game throws at you. Kudos and good luck. >^.^<

[Olorin401]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Just wanted to mention this, since I've seen a lot of White Mages that don't use it.

Regens are just as important as Cures! And they save you so much MP too.

[Icemage]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

A few quick survival notes:

(1) Stay out of area attack range once you've cast your Barspell. Nothing is as bad as being the healer in need of healing yourself. Dash in, cast, and get back out of the mix ASAP.

(2) If you absolutely must cast Divine Seal + Curaga or use Benediction mid-fight and you have a strong suspicion the monster isn't going to die immediately afterwards, do yourself a favor and cast Blink and/or Stoneskin before doing so.

(3) If for some reason you pull hate with all that curing, don't move. Once you get to level 45 you get access to Flash, which is a nice way to buy yourself a few moments to cast Blink if you're quick. Other party members can't raise their enmity levels if you're running around pulling the monster out of their attack/casting range, so do them a favor and take your lumps like a man.

(4) For love of all that's holy keep Reraise up.


Icemage

[Nazo]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Don't assume that just because people are dying it's your fault. It's easy to blame yourself, after all you're the healer, but it should be everyone's responsibility to play in a way that minimizes deaths. A lot of players, especially those with higher level jobs used to TP burns and the like, seem to forget that at lower levels mages don't have unlimited mp and it's necessary to stop and rest for mp sometimes.

[Lunaryn]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

I didn't notice any particular jump in difficulty here. However, it's worth noting that I started to eat Goblin Mushpot before this point; if you have trouble landing enfeebles you may want to consider this, as it grants MND+10 (which dwarfs a Saintly Ring). This is sold by the goblin cook in the very back of the junk shop in Lower Jeuno.

I haven't made huge investments in +hMP, but I do have the Pilgrim's Wand, which is definitely handy if you don't mind spending some hours camping an NM (Rare/Ex 100% drop).

[Chveya]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Let me commiserate with you. *hugs* I've just been through 40-50 on WHM myself, and for a few levels there in the early 40s, I thought I was losing my mind. I love White Mage and yet it felt horrible during a good portion of my 40s.

It all started when I got Haste. I was leveling with my LS in the jungle by the Yhoat telepoint. I was already kind of struggling keeping up with all the status effects that the couerls were putting on my tank- add to that trying to keep up my very first Haste cycle, and you have one frustrated (and MP-less) WHM.

Fighting Flys in Gustav or CN wasn't any easier either. I had a few parties there with BRDs, but even with refresh songs I was still feeling a bit overwhelmed. I dread Cursed Sphere now, especially when the fly does two really close together.

Then, come the spideys in Quicksand Caves. I hate you spiders!!! *shakes fist* Erase, Haste, Erase, Haste, Erase, Haste.... not to mention Sickle Slash.

Things finally started to feel a little bit less stressful around lvl 48. Having a competent party with a refresher does really really help. I became (perhaps foolishly) confident enough to join a party with a WAR/NIN tank and no other mages, which got me from early 49 to mid 50. And we only had one death (when the puller ignored the fact that I only had 43 MP left and brought another beetle to camp). ^^'

As far as advice goes, I'd say you are already doing really well. The first step to solving your problem is the fact that you recognize there is a problem. I like your list. XD

Here are a few things I tried to remember during my exping when I felt things start to overwhelm me:

1) I don't have to Haste everyone. It's nice to, but sometimes other things take priority.
2) I don't have to Erase everyone. Random DD-er will sometimes just have to live with evasion down until it wears.
3) Don't forget about Divine Seal! (I am notoriously bad at remembering I have this). Boost your curing power for free? {Yes, please!}
4) PAY ATTENTION to what other party members are doing so (for example) I don't waste MP (and time) casting Paralyze or Slow when the NIN already did that.

Also, I brought 6-7 Yag Drinks with me to parties for a few levels in the early 40s; that helped a LOT.

For mob moves like Venom or Poison Breath, I watch the chat log for the message to appear, then quickly look at the position of my melees in battle to see who was in position to be hit. I have damage filters turned completely off, so sometimes I will look at the HP bars too, to see who got hit. I'll then cast Poisona on the appropriate people. After that, I monitor the HP bars to see if any are steadily falling, if I missed anyone affected.

[Amele]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

(disclaimer: talking specifically 72-, merits and endgame are a very different ballpark).

(6) don't be afraid to use curaga II also, mp permitting - just treat it like you do a benediction (i.e. only use if it won't be getting you killed)

(8) paladins don't really need haste. (sorry paladins), if you can only haste one person with a paladin tank, haste the best DD, not the paladin. (it's good to haste the ninja regardless of the rest of the party makeup).

(10) equipment swaps are your friend, max mp can important when you can rest into it (happens often enough at lower levels) and if you're getting refreshed regularly sometimes you'll need more mp to get the full benefit of refresh. - don't neglect one set for the other!

(11) like olorin said: abuse regen. it's your most efficient healing spell.

I also didn't notice a significant increase in difficulty at 40-50 but I was 40-50 on my whitemage back in 2004 (party dynamics were rather different than today) so that may have had alot to do with it.

[DieselBoy09]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

It might not have been completely your fault. If the paladin was wearing weak gear or not curing themselves that can increase the rate of death very quickly. Also, if the puller pulls when you're not in a safe mp range.

But like above, regen is a friend. Besides that, I'd have to watch your group in pt to see what was going wrong.

[Saren]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Thanks guys. I know I was into freak out and whining but…..while I won’t say I was gods gift to whm before this I am pretty sure I was a decent whm, the sudden drop in performance was a bit of a jolt. I have put quite a lot of effort into reading about my job, making sure I have helpful gear, knowing what my abilities do and how they work etc and it’s just plain embarrassing that I was doing that badly after going to what I know is more effort than a lot of people put in. I had a few chats with whm friends today and I have a good few suggestions to try out that will stop me running out of casting time which is one of the main problems I am having at the moment.

Hahaha thanks Icemage I do actually follow all of your points, if I am outside of a starter area or a town, my reraise is up, all the time and I get out of the way quick smartish after that barspell goes up. Thankyou for the hug Chveya, your post made me smile and feel better ^ ^ I am sorry you also had the period of almost losing your mind 40-50 that I seem to be having. Amele, the pld was having trouble holding hate so I didn't want to make it worse by hasting one of the DD and I do have a set of max mp gear I promise, I swap it in when I am getting close to max mp, it's just not really been getting much in the way of use because I am barely everclose to max mp.


Our puller is one of the people I static with. She’s scary but awesome, 75 thf, 75 whm (she’s the one who calmed me down and prompted me till I got back on my feet) and is levelling ranger so she has a lot of pulling practice. She leaves when the mob is at 10% most of the time and pulls very very fast, which I will admit freaked me out initially because she pulls whatever my mp is at and I don’t always get time to rest for more than a tick or two between fights but this is part of the reason I concentrate so much on hmp + when looking at gear and food(I am rarely within 100 points of full mp) and we always make at least chain 4 unless we have to stop to wait for repops. I know our parties tend to be a bit support light, it’s usually me or me and a bard; but that’s because 30-39 I wasn’t really having too much trouble curing/buffing/debuffing on my own.

I had a look at Goblin mushpot that you suggested Lunaryn and it’s a huge mnd boost but honestly I just can’t justify losing my 7hmp from wizard cookies. I have +14hmp from gear and food now when I party and I pop a melon juice any time I go under 100mp or the puller shouts they are bringing something that I know will need a bit more casting from me and I am under 150. It’s expensive but it helps a lot, especially because we’ve only had a refresher for about half our parties. I am looking forward to a friend joining us when we hit 45 on his rdm very very much. My landing enfeebles isn’t so much of a problem because my skill is very close to cap and I have quite a lot of +mnd just because it’s the best thing I can get in a few slots right now.

The biggest problem I am finding at the moment is that I am running out of time for everything, to the point where it's getting too dangerous for me to cast regen very much. If we have a nin tank it’s not so bad because assuming they can hold hate I can cast a regen without anyone getting into trouble and regens are enough to keep the DDs healthy. We have had a lot of war/nin tanks recently however and the pld was sort of the same problem even though she cured herself some, hate was bouncing around quite a lot and the DDs take quite a bit of damage (the first two deaths were a DRK, damn soul eater is scary). I regen as much as I can and I love it but it’s getting to the point where Regen I is a plaster on a gushing wound for a lot of the DDs if hate is bouncing and in the time it takes me to cast it, people are dropping well into the orange and some mobs AoE attacks are getting scary (thankyou SE for making curaga). Hopefully regen II at 44 will do what most of what regen I used to do for me when I first got it and I can go back to being a regen happy whm.


Sorry for the long, and thankyou for the replies ^ ^

[Kasandaro]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Yep, Souleater is scary, and any DRK that abuses can easily hit dirt. Sounds like you keep getting parties where everyone's racing to cross the hate line.

As for Regen II. Yes, it heals faster than Regen. It's not more efficient, but it does heal more. The problems you're going to find with it are
1) cast time - if you're having issues with just Haste and Regen cast times, Regen II doesn't make it any easier. If I've got a good Refresher and Enfeebler, I often end up interleaving Regen and Haste, since the cast times are close-ish.
2) cost - 36 mp isn't cheap, depending on race. Cheaper than a Cure III, yes, but still, not cheap.

Another thing to remember is party members only have to be topped off against mobs with nasty AoEs (gobs, eruca, flies). Not saying to let them get to orange, but your priority should be the tank. Many DDs I've seen, when they hit orange and are slowly brought back up to safe, become a lot more well-behaved.

What *are* you fighting, anyway?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

(8) paladins don't really need haste. (sorry paladins), if you can only haste one person with a paladin tank, haste the best DD, not the paladin. (it's good to haste the ninja regardless of the rest of the party makeup).

Hmm. As PLD62, RDM69 (and WHM44), I like PLD hasted.

The main reason is the Flash recast timer. Additional sword swings also make better use of all those enmity gear PLD's have. I noticed that when my PLD is not hasted, the static Samurai would get the monster's unwanted attention more easily. In fact, DD's taking the monster away from me is when I usually discover that "Hey, the Haste icon is gone!" and I send the static WHM a nasty /tell.

Also, if there's a skillchain, Haste should be prioritized for the melee player falling behind on TP.

The ideal, of course, is to keep every melee player hasted, but a WHM should have help either with hasting and/or curing for reaching that, especially at those levels. Otherwise, I'd usually put priority on the tank first, and the slower SC partner second, then everyone else my MP can support.

[Icemage]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

DRK problems with Souleater will always be there, though there IS light at the end of the tunnel once you get Cure V at level 61. While it still doesn't fix the problem of suicidal DRKs, it gives you a shot at saving them without fixating hate on yourself at the same time.

As for PLD, I don't really think it's totally necessary unless fighting something that can do weak Slow effects (Skeletons, and especially Crawlers) which Haste can defend against. Otherwise unless hate's looking sketchy, it's often better to save the MP for emergencies. Without a RDM to back you up, or a double dose of Corsair + Bard for extra MP flow, you won't have enough MP to Haste every melee and a PLD.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Level 40, 'The Wall'

Without a RDM to back you up, or a double dose of Corsair + Bard for extra MP flow, you won't have enough MP to Haste every melee and a PLD.

I guess it comes down to this: if you have the MP to Haste and cure the DD's, you can prioritize PLD's Haste lower than the DD's.

Haste helps the PLD do his job better, AND cut down on damage taken via more frequent Flash. (For NIN, helps him keeps up Utsusemi AND doing more damage to generate enmity--again, doing his job better, and taking less damage.) Better tanking means the DD's can let loose more, the very same idea in hasting the DD: more damage.

Over time, Haste on PLD saves you (or the PLD) MP for cures thanks to more Flash, and PLD can hold the monsters better, helping the DD's.

That's my reasoning for recommending Haste for PLD as priority. Yes, a Paladin can tank without it, but there is good argument for putting PLD high on the list.

Aside:
Ninjas universally view Haste as non-optional when my RDM or WHM is in the party. I wonder how they get through parties with SMN+BRD (well, and maybe BLM) as the only backline? Do they demand that Hastega which most SMN's hate to use? Do they actually get it?!